Eminem: Prepare For The Downfall

[taras]

Notice how despite the fact that Eminem's recent album and film were not particularly great, the critics all went mad about both, saying things like "Is Eminem the new Elvis?" (The Times)...

Now, I don't know about you, but to me this looks suspiciously like the old secret service "build someone up for a year or so, then completely destroy them when they are at the height of media interest"... I mean, think how much potential power Eminem has with the American "youth of today".

Anyway, remember this when I get proven correct!
Or forget it if nothing happens

 

[Philo_T]

Bah.

Simply typical 'merkin media pimp behavior.

They don't recognize or support the artist in their dynamic, formative years, but notice the growing fanbase (== marketbase).

Usually by the time an artist is popular enough to be of interest as an advertising engine, they've shot their wad as far as creativitiy goes and are just cashing in for all they're worth.

As a result, they overshoot the mark a little and then start the long slide into mediocrity and re-union tours.

The Advertising industry brings the last scene of "Time Bandits" when Kevin's parents touch the reamaining bit of evil and are turned into hermit crabs. The obscene amounts of money applied in the name of advertising corrupt anything they touch. Just look at the effect on US sports that are shown on TV, particularly baseball and football.

I will, though, concur with your judgement that this indicates the acme of eminem's popularity.

 

[Anonymous]

he's hardly anything new or amazing. in every high class mag like GQ or Esquire, there is some article comparing him to Rimbaud or Baudelaire. everyone(including older white people) think they are supposed to like him now...but it's just going along with everyone else. i've heard all the albums myself. he's quite witty on a street level. his albums are hillarious more than anything. but it's nothing new to me.

what's funny is poor Marilyn Manson isn't scary anymore. Eminem is scarier for one reason: rich white folks are in total fear their kids embracing blacks. cheeky, that.

shock alone doesn't sustain. it never does. Alice Cooper plays golf and Ozzy get's invited to state dinners. no one can shook for more than 5 years at most.

 

[escargot]

I thought Marilyn Manson WAS Alice Cooper!

My 'rents were scared stiff of Mr Furnier, he was depraved, ate babies etc.
And the golf- the golf.....................

 

[Anonymous]

Eminem has one major thing going for him at the moment...........
He wasnt created by a Saturday night show then forced down our throats for the next year or so

 

[stu neville]

what's funny is poor Marilyn Manson isn't scary anymore.

TBH he lost the apprehension factor for me when I learned his name is actually Brian.

Eminem is a) smart enough to know his shelf life's limited and so b) I wouldn't be at all surprised if he starts to subtly and incrementally shift his image - don't get me wrong, he won't turn into Daniel O Donnell, advertising knitting patterns and cat refuges, but I think he may turn more introspective.

Synth's dead right - shock is by it's very nature temporary. Good for getting attention, but you need more substance to sustain interest. Besides, as any medic will tell you, sustained shock invariably results in death .

Stu

 

[river_styx]

Eminem is the new Vanilla Ice. No wait he's the new Ice-T. Scratch that he's the new Ice Cube. Hang on no he's the new LL Cool J. Just wait a darn minute he's the new Snoop Dogg, Dr Dre, Puff Daddy, P Diddy, Doo Doddy, Bee Biddly.....Umm no he's none of these he's the new J-Lo because she's real.


*fades back into the shadows laughing like a mad kitten*

 

[SoundDust]

I thought Marilyn Manson WAS Alice Cooper!

Alice Cooper records have tunes....apparently

 

[Anonymous]

Closet quirn

Marylin Manson is simply an Alice Cooper wannabe. And Alice has played golf with presidents...

Slim Shady is the genuine article. If he's started raiding his closet, doesn't mean he hasn't been down to the crossroads alongs with Robert Johnson and Mick Jagger.

No! That boy's gonna fry! Lawd Have Mercy!

 

[Anonymous]

Eminem has one major thing going for him at the moment...........
He wasnt created by a Saturday night show then forced down our throats for the next year or so

Very true...

Please don't let the BBC or ITV start 'Rap Academy'. I can see it now - students spend six weeks living in a specially-designed ghetto, learning to 'keep it real'.

 

[Anonymous]

he's the new Snoop Dogg, Dr Dre

now hold up...Dre n Snoop are the real deal, blizatch

 

[SoundDust]

Very true...

Please don't let the BBC or ITV start 'Rap Academy'. I can see it now - students spend six weeks living in a specially-designed ghetto, learning to 'keep it real'.

They're doing it in America, where their version of Arse Academy is being done by the artist formerly known as Puff Daddy, now P. Doddmen and the Diddy :hmph:

 

[evilsprout]

Eminem is doing what every successful artist, from Elvis, The Stones and the Beatles onwards, have been doing - providing an "acceptable" white face for black music. Sad but true.

I'm afraid there's no conspiracy towards albums that are pony getting rave reviews - more to do with modern music journalism being about what editors say should be written rather than what is actually thought by reviewers.

A better conspiracy about Mr Mathers is that Eminem may be a futuer Al'Queda target cos he takes the piss out of OBL in the 'Without Me' video. And if they did him in, he'd suddenly have a statue in Time Square and thought of as the biggest American musical hero of all time!

 

[Anonymous]

Eminem is doing what every successful artist, from Elvis, The Stones and the Beatles onwards, have been doing - providing an "acceptable" white face for black music. Sad but true.

About those artists. I'd have said bridging the gap. Music's a two way street. None of them were that "acceptable" in their day. That came later as the music machine sucked them in and spun them into confectionary.

Pat Boone and S Club 7, is that what you mean?

Eminem is blatant Two Tone, Hip Hop, for America. I bet some Americans and British still find that threatening.

 

[minordrag]

Eminem is doing what every successful artist, from Elvis, The Stones and the Beatles onwards, have been doing - providing an "acceptable" white face for black music. Sad but true.

This is sticky territory, friend Sprout. I reject all notions of music "belonging" to any ethnic or cultural group. Such thinking fundamentally denegrates the universality music offers--that which knows no race, gender or class; true potential transcendence.

Origination does not confer ownership. Furthermore, almost all original music is a synthesis of highly disparate cultural influence. Jazz, for example, is a product of European tonality and military band instrumentation combined with African rhythms (with a little blues thrown in). Early Rock and Roll is considered to have sprung from Bill Monroe's Bluegrass as much as Robert Johnson's Delta Blues.

But what about Elvis, or Pat Boone, or Eminem? Is their success a crime? I don't see why. If it is, then Chuck Berry shouldn't have been successful when playing country music. Nor should Ray Charles have been allowed to do the same. Furthermore, the above-mentioned as well as the Beatles and Stones freely acknowledged their influences. It was only when these people went on to discover their own voices that their music became truly great.

And, lest we forget, despite working largely outside the corporate machine, "black" rap music has been some of the most profitable records ever sold.

In music at least, authenticity should only refer to emotional honesty and intent. Otherwise it's a pitfall to be avoided.

 

[evilsprout]

I accept your points, Androman and Minor Drag, and of course you're both right.

However, Eminem has had a level of success that has far outweighed that even the most prominant black rappers, such as Snoop Doggy Dogg and Dr Dre. No black rapper has really had the stronghold and status in middle class white culture that Eminem has.

Is it because he's better than them? No. It's because his race means he's seen in a different light. For example, for many years the likes of Dre were condemned in the press for their homophobic and mysoginistic lyrics, with those taking the stance of irony or reflection of real society shouted down.

With Eminem it's the other way round, his lyrics are irony, genius and he's considered a modern day poet. Those who object are ridiculed and considered in some way unintelligent. Maybe it's just times have changed, or maybe it's not a little coincidence that he's the first really successful white rapper since (snigger) Vanilla Ice.

But of course none of these people's success is their own fault. I was just commenting that it's usually white artistes who make it big first. This is especially the case with Elvis, who, although of course was bloody amazing, was only really doing the same as black artistes had been doing for ages without anything like the same level of success.

 

[minordrag]

Personally, I've always thought Eminem's lyrics were largely crap.

ducks flying bottles

You're sort of right about Elvis, but listen to his version of "That's Alright Mama" and compare it to Arthur "Big Boy" Crudup's (the song's author, also on Sun records). Elvis betters him. Likewise, the King's version of "Blue Moon" is startling. 'Course, then he went into the Army, got hooked on pills, and became a self-parody. But before then he deftly and seamlessly merged black and white idioms--Chuck Berry did the same--in a way that most talented artists (I'm thinking Howlin' Wolf here) did not.

I was amazed to hear that one of the first (and biggest) stars of the Grand Ol' Opry radio show was a black harmonica player!

 

[Anonymous]

Pat Boone: Don't Forget To Send In Your Love Gifts!

Now, Pat Boone. There's a singer specifically aimed at denaturing and neutering Rock n' Roll, back in the Fifties. His job was to give the 'devil's music' a white face and take out all the raunch, making it safe.

Speedy bloody Gonzales, indeed!

 

[Anonymous]

Personally, I've always thought Eminem's lyrics were largely crap.

As far as I know he writes his own. Unlike the King, marvelous interpretor, though he was.

Believe me I have to bite my tongue when I say that I think M&M's got something. Maybe it's the videos? Maybe I'm getting old?

Maybe it's that he comes across as hard and sincere, whilst still maintaining accessibility? Maybe it's that his lyrical rants ocasionally make sense?

Maybe, it's that I'm getting old and I'm having a musical, Death in Venice moment?

Or, maybe it's that there's so much shit around that his stuff just stands out from the crowd?

As for Marylin Manson who can't honestly say that Marc Almond's version of Tainted Love was infinitely more corrupting?

 

[minordrag]

Re: Pat Boone: Don't Forget To Send In Your Love Gifts!

Now, Pat Boone. There's a singer specifically aimed at denaturing and neutering Rock n' Roll, back in the Fifties. His job was to give the 'devil's music' a white face and take out all the raunch, making it safe.

Speedy bloody Gonzales, indeed!

I respectfully submit that I believe Pat Boone liked that music and recorded his "versions" of it out of this regard as well as a desire for profit. Neither of which are bad.

Believe me, anything Little Richard did kicked hell out of anything Pat Boone did, and history has shown Pat Boone's efforts to be laughable if not outright repellent. But think about it--there was a twinge of danger in covering devil's music in the 50s, even if all you did was clinically eliminate anything interesting or exciting about it.

Talent aside, is Nat "King" Cole to be similarly reviled for not knowing his place?

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Re: Pat Boone: Don't Forget To Send In Your Love Gifts!

I respectfully submit that I believe Pat Boone liked that music and recorded his "versions" of it out of this regard as well as a desire for profit. Neither of which are bad.

Talent aside, is Nat "King" Cole to be similarly reviled for not knowing his place?

Woah, there, MD! Can of worms territory here, mate.

I'm prepared to accept that whatever Pat Boone did to Tooti Fruiti he did help to make R&R more acceptable to a white audience.

However, Nat King Cole, who started out as a first class jazz pianist, was talented enough to hold his own in any company as a crooner! We're talking Frank and Tony here, I think.

No talk of him punching above his weight.

 

[minordrag]

I said "talent aside," AndroMan! Nat Cole was a major talent--his trio records are favorites of mine. I was only suggesting that he sang "white," and wondering (rhetorically) whether or not that was the same kind of trespass as Eminem et al singing (sic) "black."

But, yes--it is dangerous territory, as we're getting into the intent of the artist. And wildly off thread.

As I've said elsewhere (and to drag this horse back on track): the straw man is built with the express purpose of it's ultimate destruction. I don't see Eminen leaving a revered legacy of meaningful art. Then again, I'm always shocked and disappointed!

 

[Anonymous]

I said "talent aside," AndroMan! Nat Cole was a major talent--his trio records are favorites of mine. I was only suggesting that he sang "white," and wondering (rhetorically) whether or not that was the same kind of trespass as Eminem et al singing (sic) "black."

Whoa There, Good Buddy! Flashing blue lights and Klaxon Warnings here!

Firstly, Nat King Cole singing white. You obviously haven't heard enough Duke Ellington, Count Basie and his Orchestra, Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holliday. Back when they all started out, the crossover was hard. I'd say that the white crooners, from Bing Crosby on, were doing a jazz vocal, strongly influenced by black jazz!

Frank and Tony may have been of Italian descent, but their vocal style is a mixture of the best of both traditions.

I think this segregation of styles is a real problem. It seems to depend what people heard and absorbed when they were young, their influences, that matters. Not where it came from.

Slim Whitman took `Blues,' 'Spiritual,' `C&W,' and `Bluegrass' and put them together, paving the way for the modern 'hillbilly' music that became white rock & roll. He was at least as big an influence on Elvis and Carl Perkins as Big Bill Broonzie.

I understand what Evilsprout's saying about accessing the mainstream. But, let's face it, M&M's bound to ring a few more bells with white kids than his black contemporaries. He's speaking directly to them.

Face it, would you be more shocked if you discovered your kid had an M&M, or a Slipknot album under the bed?

 

[monster_magnet]

Face it, would you be more shocked if you discovered your kid had an M&M, or a Slipknot album under the bed?

I'd be disturbed that he thought that he had to hide his music and the lack of a copy of Razzle

 

[Inhabitant]

Notice how despite the fact that Eminem's recent album and film were not particularly great, the critics all went mad about both, saying things like "Is Eminem the new Elvis?" (The Times)...

You think they're not particularly great. I think the last album was pretty damn great myself and deserved the plaudits, and I've only ready good reviews of the film (though admittedly I haven't seen it yet). I don't think you can make speculations like this based on something as subjective as music taste.

 

[monster_magnet]

An answer from the man himself

I believe chaps he answers some of your accusations and queeries in this marvelous pop tune.

EMINEM: White America

America, hahaha, we love you, how many people are proud to be citizens of this beautifulcountry of our's, the stripes and the stars for the rights that men have died for to protect, the women and men who have broke their neck's for the freedom of speech the United States government has sworn to uphold, or so we're told...

Yo', I want everybody to listen to the words of this song, I never would've dreamed in a million years i'd see, so many motherfuckin' people who feel like me, who share the same views and the same exact beliefs, it's like a fuckin' army marchin' in back of me, so many lives I touch, so much anger aimed, in no particular direction, just sprays and sprays, and straight through your radio waves it plays and plays, 'till it stays stuck in your head for days and
days, who would of thought, standing in this mirror bleachin' my hair, with some peroxide, reachin for a t-shirt to wear, that I would catapult to the forefront of rap like this, how could I predict my words would have an impact like this, I must've struck a chord, with somebody up in the office, cause congress keeps telling me I ain't causin' nuthin' but problems, and now
they're sayin' i'm in trouble with the government, i'm lovin' it, I shoveled shit all my life, and now I'm dumping it on...

[CHORUS]

White America, I could be one of your kids, white America, little Eric looks just like this, white America, Erica loves my shit, I go to TRL, look how many hugs I get, white America, I could be one of your kids, white America, little Eric looks just like this, white America, Erica loves my shit, I go to TRL, look how many hugs I get...

Look at these eyes, baby blue, baby just like yourself, if they were brown, Shady lose, Shady sits on the shelf, but Shady's cute, Shady knew, Shady's dimple's would help, make ladies swoon baby, {ooh baby}, look at my sales, let's do the math, if I was black, I would've sold half, I ain't have to graduate from Lincoln high school to know that, but I could rap, so fuck school, i'm too cool to go back, gimme the mic, show me where the fuckin' studio's at, when I was underground, no one gave a fuck I was white, no labels wanted to sign me, almost gave up, I was like, fuck it, until I met Dre, the only one to look past, gave me a chance, and I lit a fire up under his ass, helped him get back to the top, every fan black that I got, was probably his in exchange for every white fan that he's got, like damn, we just swapped, sittin' back lookin' at
shit, wow, i'm like my skin is it starting to work to my benefit now, it's...

[CHORUS]

See the problem is, I speak to suburban kids, who otherwise would of never knew these words exist, whose mom's probably would of never gave two squirts of piss, 'till I created so much motherfuckin' turbulence, straight out the tube, right into your living room I came, and kids flipped when they knew I was produced by Dre, that's all it took, and they were instantly hooked
right in, and they connected with me too because I looked like them, that's why they put my lyric's up under this microscope, searchin' with a fine tooth comb, its like this rope, waitin' to choke, tightening around my throat, watching me while I write this, like I don't like this, nope, all I hear is, lyrics, lyrics, constant controversy, sponsors working 'round the clock, to
try to stop my concerts early, surely hip-hop was never a problem in Harlem, only in Boston, after it bothered the fathers of daughters starting to blossom, so now i'm catchin' the flack from these activists when they raggin', actin' like i'm the first rapper to smack a bitch, or say faggot, shit, just look at me like i'm your closest pal, the posterchild, the motherfuckin' spokesman now for...

[CHORUS]

So to the parents of America, I am the derringer aimed at little Erica, to attack her character, the ringleader of this circus of worthless pawns, sent to lead the march right up to the steps of congress, and piss on the lawns of the White House, to burn the casket and replace it with a parental advisory sticker, to spit liquor in the faces of in this democracy of hypocrisy, fuck you Ms. Cheney, fuck you Tipper Gore, fuck you with the freest of speech this
divided states of embarassment will allow me to have, fuck you, [vocal melody], he, hahaha, i'm just playin' America, you know I love you...

 

[Inhabitant]

Yep - I think that just about sums it up!

 

[minordrag]

Firstly, Nat King Cole singing white. You obviously haven't heard enough Duke Ellington, Count Basie and his Orchestra, Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holliday. Back when they all started out, the crossover was hard. I'd say that the white crooners, from Bing Crosby on, were doing a jazz vocal, strongly influenced by black jazz!

Um...I'm pretty thoroughly familiar with all of those artists. I would also suggest that Ella Fitzgerald sang "white." I know it's a myth that white Americans have no appreciation for black American artists. I'm sure you don't share that view, however.

I don't dispute that white singers were influenced by jazz. That's kind of my point. Origination does not confer ownership, neither does race. When I hear people like Stanley Crouch talking about jazz being "black people's music," I know that's bullshit.

(Since I believe music knows no color, I don't personally subscribe to the "singing white/black" appellation. I use it only for argument's sake, to highlight points made on this thread.)

Regarding crossover, two of the most popular artists of the 1930s were Louis Armstrong and Fats Waller, who later on were accused of being "Uncle Toms," a despicable and inappropriate label.

Here, for the last time, is my point: Elvis and Eminem (and countless others) profited from incorporating what are considered to be black musical idioms. Their efforts are often considered profit-driven and inauthentic. What about the blacks who "borrowed" (or profited) from whites--Chuck Berry, Johnny Ace, Nat Cole, Ella Fitzgerald? Does the same standard apply?

 

[SoundDust]

Not "without me" by eminem

Copyright/No net downloads

Two hackers in jeans go to HMV, to HMV, to HMV
Two hackers in jeans go to HMV, to HMV, to HMV

Guess it sucks, back again, Shady's tracks, protected
copyright copyright copyright copyright

I've released a new record but nobody wants to
purchase it no more they got broadband to go quicker
well if you want freebies, this is what I'll give you
a shoddy MP3 ripped straight off napster
Gnutella sucks now that we got copy protection,
a thing that we can beat with a black marker,
my computer musn't be co-operating
when this CD in the drive stops it operating.
but Celine Dion's not what my tastes in,
rappings bad, shady's new track is why we're waiting
I know that he split up with his Lady,
but his hatred for Debbie's entertaining
So the D.R.E is onto me, contacting the net's authorities
but Snoop Dogg can't shift his album for free
but it's so easy with MP3's
so come on and rip, encode this sh*t, get that,
track in your mits, and still you persist
and get ready, cause napster has gone a bit deady
they just settled in with Sony (f*ck you webbie's)

Now don't get my record for free,
Gotta pay my child support you see
and a rebel needs some controversy
so he tries to stop those MP3's

Selling millions, fans feeling envious
embarrassed as he grows fatter than Elvis
he starts eating the hamburgers helpless
another condition of you being filthy RICH!
a missionary, record sales healthy,
could make another record, a duet with Elton
it's rubbish, worse than that with Dido, a fact
and just like that you got everybody kissing your ass
it goes platinum, a mediocrity,
but still you buy this record and don't download it for free
well it's crap [batman sound thing]
radio antennae, tune it to a different station
go online and look under alt.downloads.eminem
the scent of corporations onto a winner
and still investing, more than spend on wrestling
protection on your CD's ain't working
purchase, "attention please",
feel the tension when your hard drive starts to freeze
here's my record - new computer please
engineers, bring them, bring them to me...

Now don't get my record for free,
Gotta pay my child support you see
and a rebel needs some controversy
so he tries to stop those MP3's

a tisk-it a task-it, this is the only thing,
anyone who pays a buck for this sh*t
men in Nantwich, get their Eminem fix,
prefer him to Metallicas lawyers
and Moby, your record will have only,
seen 36 more copies of play made by me,
they don't pay me, it's so cheap it's so much better,
nobody buys their own records
now lets go, give me a minute,
the new shady albums a rip-off and insult
by some dope, with laptops and utensils,
ever since falling in love with dollar symbols,
but sometimes the law just seems,
to stop everybody downloading for free,
so this must mean it's still costing record companies, cash obscene
though a failing artist can be dumped, firstly
to make way for stuff by Elvis Presley,
and sell dead artists so selflessly,
make record companies so wealthy
(hey) there's a cheap way to work,
20 million Doors "best of's" henceforth emerge
but no matter that my banks full of money,
we can't download copied MP3's

Now don't get my record for free,
Gotta pay my child support you see
and a rebel needs some controversy
so he tries to stop those MP3's
Now don't get my record for free,
Gotta pay my child support you see
and a rebel needs some controversy
so he tries to stop those MP3's


Enjoy

 

[Anonymous]

What's That Crazy Rythm, Driving Me Insane?

Here, for the last time, is my point: Elvis and Eminem (and countless others) profited from incorporating what are considered to be black musical idioms. Their efforts are often considered profit-driven and inauthentic. What about the blacks who "borrowed" (or profited) from whites--Chuck Berry, Johnny Ace, Nat Cole, Ella Fitzgerald? Does the same standard apply?

Yeah! And I'm arguing that it's a false comparison. Segregation of musical influences is wrong.

Can't say one side's singing white if the other side are going ahead and copying them in return. The crossover was there before even Bix Beiderbeck is supposed to have thrown his week's pay on the floor because he wanted to hear Bessy Smith sing all night.

My argument was about the attempt to take raunchy sex and meaning out of popular music, make it safe, to someone else's agenda. Not who was singing and performing to who's beat, but who was out to remove the beat. The Stock, Waterman and Aitken style, creators of ersatz music!

Who'd have thought that Pat Boone would still be as controversial after all this time.