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Dragons: Evidence They Existed

A true dragon has four legs and two wings. The wyvern only has two legs and two wings. Dragons were gigantic with some said to run into hundreds of feet, wyverns much smaller, 30-40 feet. Lazy film makers are forever fobbing us off with wyverns instead of dragons, the worst culprit being peter Jackson's bastardization of Smaug in his bastardization of the Hobbit.
This is being a little unfair to filmmakers. Successful filmmakers are rarely characterised as being lazy. Most are noted for their energy and dedication to detail. The only job they have to perform when designing their dragons is of making them look cool, a task fulfilled in the two bipedal examples that spring immediately to mind, Peter Jackson's Smaug and that one from Dragonslayer. Filmmakers have no duty to adhere to an imagined taxonomy for mythical beasts, when it's unclear to what extent even those who believed in the creatures centuries ago were aware of such distinctions. To be honest, I've pointed out to people in a self-satisfied tone that a supposed dragon is actuality a wyvern, but when I was in my teens. Strict taxonomy and morphology for draconids is for those designing role-playing games, in my opinion.

Edited a little to put right the typos of a work distracted brain
 
Right! So we three are the only three humans in this dimension's version of Earth not to have seen Game of Thrones. Anyone else (in this dimension) will just have to go and see it as I'm not updating this again.

Four!

I did see a bit of a repeat somewhere. But not a full episode.
 
Four!

I did see a bit of a repeat somewhere. But not a full episode.
Well I'll let you in the club because you're cool and we need you more than you need us, but the rest of the world will just have to watch Game of Thrones.
 
I demand admission - never seen a moment of it.

Personally, given that I take dragons to be ancient imaginings of dinosaurs via their fossils, I'm perfectly satisfied with any cinematic depiction of roughly dinosaur size. I think the mythological waters are muddied by the fact that there are two overlapping tendencies in old tales. In some cases they are presented as immense beasts - monsters if you will but still flesh and blood creatures - while in others they are put to metaphorical work as instantiations of either the landscape itself or powerful forces such disease, sin or alternative peoples and beliefs; in this latter case, it makes sense for them to be unquantifiably large - more like a storm or an earthquake than an animal you could 'see' in its entirety.
 
The Dragon. A beast of such power...

...that if you were to see it whole and complete in a single glance...

...it would burn you to cinders.

Where is it?

It is everywhere. It is everything. Its scales glisten in the bark of trees. Its roar is heard in the wind. And its forked tongue strikes like....

Like lightning.

Yes, that's it.
 
This is being a little unfair to filmmakers. Successful filmmakers are rarely characterised as being lazy. Most are noted for their energy and dedication to detail. The only job they have to perform when designing their dragons is of making them look cool, a task fulfilled in the two bipedal examples that spring immediately to mind, Peter Jackson's Smaug and that one from Dragonslayer. Filmmakers have no duty to adhere to an imagined taxonomy for mythical beasts, when it's unclear to what extent even those who believed in the creatures centuries ago were aware of such distinctions. To be honest, I've pointed out to people in a self-satisfied tone that a supposed dragon is actuality a wyvern, but when I was in my teens. Strict taxonomy and morphology for draconids is for those designing role-playing games, in my opinion.

Edited a little to put right the typos of a work distracted brain
Every drawing Tolkien did of Smaug shows him as a true dragon with four legs and two wings. Jackson's bastardization makes him looked like a plucked chicken. Add to that he's brown instead of golden red. He also screwed with the plot so much and padded it so much that it became unwatchable. One of the most magnificent monsters and coolest books reduced to excrement by Hollywood (like so many other comics, books and TV shows raped by that hollow, worthless institution). True, four footed, two winged dragons are known as far back as Babylon and ancient China from carvings and pottery. The wyvern did not emerge until medieval Europe.
 
I demand admission - never seen a moment of it.

Personally, given that I take dragons to be ancient imaginings of dinosaurs via their fossils, I'm perfectly satisfied with any cinematic depiction of roughly dinosaur size. I think the mythological waters are muddied by the fact that there are two overlapping tendencies in old tales. In some cases they are presented as immense beasts - monsters if you will but still flesh and blood creatures - while in others they are put to metaphorical work as instantiations of either the landscape itself or powerful forces such disease, sin or alternative peoples and beliefs; in this latter case, it makes sense for them to be unquantifiably large - more like a storm or an earthquake than an animal you could 'see' in its entirety.

Many early dragons were thought of as gods or god like beasts rather than mortal monsters. I've written and research widely on the topic for years and concluded that dragon lore stems from a number of different things including large reptiles of known and unknown type, discovery of large fossil bones and for want of a better word 'paranormal' manifestations.
 
Many early dragons were thought of as gods or god like beasts rather than mortal monsters. I've written and research widely on the topic for years and concluded that dragon lore stems from a number of different things including large reptiles of known and unknown type, discovery of large fossil bones and for want of a better word 'paranormal' manifestations.

Is any of your writing on this topic online?
I'd be interested to read it.
 
Is any of your writing on this topic online?
I'd be interested to read it.
His book, Dragons: More than a myth is a fairly wide ranging examination of the subject. It could have done with a little more proofreading, which seems to be a common issue with books these days (is it because more are self-published?), and it can be a slog in places reading through eyewitness reports, but I enjoyed the read.
 

Dragons: More than a myth? Paperback – 12 Jun 2005
by Richard Freeman (Author)

10 customer reviews

Four teenage boys are dragged to their deaths by a reptilian monster that emerges from a fog-bound sea off the coast of Florida.

In the north-east of England, a shadowy cult is rumoured to have sacrificed human victims to a dragon-god well into the 20th century.
In New Guinea, giant lizards with huge teeth and claws kill dozens of villagers and send the natives into a panic.

In the Gambia, an enraged dragon smashes a bridge, tipping people to their doom.

These all sound like the scripts for horror films or novels, but they are all alleged to have actually happened - and furthermore, well within living memory. From our earliest childhood, we are taught that dragons are imaginary beasts; the stuff of myths and legends, yet these most ancient of monsters are still being reported from all corners of the globe in this, the age of reason. Could the dragon legends have a basis in fact?

Richard Freeman, cryptozoologist, author, explorer, adventurer, and Zoological Director of the world’s largest mystery animal research organisation, follows this uber-monster right across the globe, from prehistory to the present day. He tracks it from the steamy jungles of the Congo, to the desolate lakes of eastern Siberia.

The dragon rears its scaly head in every culture on Earth; from the Indians to the Australian Aborigines, and from the Vikings to the Pygmies. The inescapable conclusion is that there are very real beasts at the core of these fantastic stories.

The dragon has its teeth and claws deep into the collective psyche of mankind, and it’s not about to let go. Our most ancient fear still stalks the earth today. Beware. This is no fairytale! When your parents told you that there were no such things as dragons, they lied


Sounds good!
 
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Dragons: More than a myth? Paperback – 12 Jun 2005
by Richard Freeman (Author)

10 customer reviews

Four teenage boys are dragged to their deaths by a reptilian monster that emerges from a fog-bound sea off the coast of Florida.

In the north-east of England, a shadowy cult is rumoured to have sacrificed human victims to a dragon-god well into the 20th century.
In New Guinea, giant lizards with huge teeth and claws kill dozens of villagers and send the natives into a panic.

In the Gambia, an enraged dragon smashes a bridge, tipping people to their doom.

These all sound like the scripts for horror films or novels, but they are all alleged to have actually happened - and furthermore, well within living memory. From our earliest childhood, we are taught that dragons are imaginary beasts; the stuff of myths and legends, yet these most ancient of monsters are still being reported from all corners of the globe in this, the age of reason. Could the dragon legends have a basis in fact?

Richard Freeman, cryptozoologist, author, explorer, adventurer, and Zoological Director of the world’s largest mystery animal research organisation, follows this uber-monster right across the globe, from prehistory to the present day. He tracks it from the steamy jungles of the Congo, to the desolate lakes of eastern Siberia.

The dragon rears its scaly head in every culture on Earth; from the Indians to the Australian Aborigines, and from the Vikings to the Pygmies. The inescapable conclusion is that there are very real beasts at the core of these fantastic stories.

The dragon has its teeth and claws deep into the collective psyche of mankind, and it’s not about to let go. Our most ancient fear still stalks the earth today. Beware. This is no fairytale! When your parents told you that there were no such things as dragons, they lied


Sounds good!

The New Guinea dragon or artrellia (as called by the natives) is supposed to be an over sized lizard of the monitor family. It is reported to achieve a large size > 12' in length, with some reports of much greater lengths. It's possible it could be an oversized specimen of the crocodile monitor, however the color doesn't match?

http://itsmth.wikia.com/wiki/Artrellia

 
Dragons: More than a myth? Paperback – 12 Jun 2005
by Richard Freeman (Author)

10 customer reviews

Four teenage boys are dragged to their deaths by a reptilian monster that emerges from a fog-bound sea off the coast of Florida.

In the north-east of England, a shadowy cult is rumoured to have sacrificed human victims to a dragon-god well into the 20th century.
In New Guinea, giant lizards with huge teeth and claws kill dozens of villagers and send the natives into a panic.

In the Gambia, an enraged dragon smashes a bridge, tipping people to their doom.

These all sound like the scripts for horror films or novels, but they are all alleged to have actually happened - and furthermore, well within living memory. From our earliest childhood, we are taught that dragons are imaginary beasts; the stuff of myths and legends, yet these most ancient of monsters are still being reported from all corners of the globe in this, the age of reason. Could the dragon legends have a basis in fact?

Richard Freeman, cryptozoologist, author, explorer, adventurer, and Zoological Director of the world’s largest mystery animal research organisation, follows this uber-monster right across the globe, from prehistory to the present day. He tracks it from the steamy jungles of the Congo, to the desolate lakes of eastern Siberia.

The dragon rears its scaly head in every culture on Earth; from the Indians to the Australian Aborigines, and from the Vikings to the Pygmies. The inescapable conclusion is that there are very real beasts at the core of these fantastic stories.

The dragon has its teeth and claws deep into the collective psyche of mankind, and it’s not about to let go. Our most ancient fear still stalks the earth today. Beware. This is no fairytale! When your parents told you that there were no such things as dragons, they lied


Sounds good!
Again here I am talking of oversized carnivorous monitor lizards. Which are quite dragon like aside from fire breathing, flying and other farfetched attributes. Presently the Komodo tops the list at > 10’ long and recorded at weights of > 300 pounds. Note perhaps the fire breathing can be traced to the fact that some of these beasts have a poison bite? However numerous cryptids are said to be larger than even the Komodo dragon.

Claims for a more slender but considerably longer monitor the Artrellia a dragonesque beast said to be lurking in Papua New Guinea. A small (young) specimen was shot in 1980 at I believe 7’. Claims are made for the beast to grow over 20’. The natives are terrified of the animal.

Claims have been made for a giant monitor in equatorial Africa. The Congo basin has plenty of room for such a beast to hide. With the Likouala region an environmentally hostile area of swamp is 55,000 square miles consisting of virgin territory. This could possible explain some of the so-called dinosaur sighting since many monitors are at home in the water, just speculation here.

The Buru was an aquatic monitor type reptile said to have lived in Ziro valley of India. It is likely extinct until relatively recently, due to habit loss. Said to grow to 20’. The animal had confrontations with the local tribe’s people until its demise.

In Australia numerous claims have been made for a large 20’+ monitor lizard as well. Some speculate that Megalania has not gone extinct and has managed to survive in the outback? Megalania was a giant monitor lizard ~ 8 times the size of the Komodo dragon. Supposedly bones of Megalania dating back only 300 years have been found. Dr. Karl Shuker has a detailed write up on this cryptid.
 
^ Dude's actually quite interesting...if he took that bloody stupid plastic armour off! Tit.
 
Four legged, winged dragons are represented as far back as Babylon. The whole thing about them being snakes is wrong. The term 'serpent' was loosely used in ancient tines to describe almost any reptile.The first written references to them in Japan are in 630 AD. Some Asian dragons are winged. For example Chinese dragons go through complex staged life cycles, growing legs, horns and finally wings.
 
"Four legged, winged dragons are represented as far back as Babylon. "

Today's flying (or more precisely gliding) lizards - Draco Volans, have 4 limbs and pseudo-wings:

flyinglizard.jpg

They rarely exceed 8" in length today, but earlier similar creatures, such as Coelurosauravus and Kuehneosaurus were far larger.
 
How large?

According to Wiki: "Kuehneosaurus latus. Measuring 72 centimetres long (2.3 feet)"

Other extant gliding creatures may well exceed that size though. This flying lemur, probably killed for bush-meat, was certainly an impressive specimen:

Flying_lemur.jpg
 
Mythical Monsters by Charles Gould. :)

I see it was mentioned on page one of the thread. I have a cheap modern h/b reprint of this out-of-copyright work but it now seems to be available complete for free download.
That's a handy link, thanks for posting it.

Which remind me of a Fortean joke.

Q. Which mythological creature is invisible?

A.
All of them. Duh.
 
Damn - got me with your Fortean joke!

Given the renewed interest in this thread, it may be worthwhile me bumping my 2015 account of el Drac de Na Coca (the dragon of Na Coca - i.e. Palma, Majorca):

"The story goes that some time during the 1600s, the inhabitants of Palma, Mallorca were terrorised by a "dragon" crawling around in the city's sewers and occasionally coming out to snatch livestock and causing many a Spanish lady to swoon.

One courageous man, no doubt influenced by the St George legend, vowed to rid the town of this fearsome beast. He coaxed the dragon out of a deep drain using a chunk of raw meat and, following a mighty struggle, slew it with his sword.

Unlike so many dragon-slaying stories, this one has some hard evidence to support it!

The Palma museum, just at the rear of the magnificent medieval cathedral contains the mummified remains of "El Drac de Na Coca". I was there on Saturday and, despite the museum's prohibition on photography, managed to nab a quick shot while the staff were not looking. Please see below. What's left of this clear crocodilian is in a display case and I estimate measures just under 5 feet in length. Not that impressive maybe, but still rather Fortean, when neither alligators nor crocodiles are native to the Balearic isles.

el_drac1.jpg
 
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