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The Enfield Poltergeist

I'm going to have to pay a visit again when I'm in Enfield as couldn't find it last time around.

Also this Simon Certain fellow from some of the other threads about the Enfield case...couldn't he basically be Billy Hodgson under a pseudonym? He seems to know of considerable 'insider' information. Just putting it out there.
 
cpm82 said:
I'm going to have to pay a visit again when I'm in Enfield as couldn't find it last time around.

Also this Simon Certain fellow from some of the other threads about the Enfield case...couldn't he basically be Billy Hodgson under a pseudonym? He seems to know of considerable 'insider' information. Just putting it out there.
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Stuart was an odd fellow that promised much and then basically did not deliver whilst becoming more and more truculent with the other forummers, so I'm not sure how happy people are to go down that route again. He also used other accounts to to add to the confusion. His purpose? Who knows?

We seen it with the recent Loch Ness monster thread as well:

http://forum.forteantimes.com/index...ographed-the-loch-ness-monster-in-2006.62179/

I feel the guy Justin Case behaved quite similarly to Stuart in some ways.

Another visitor found some rocks that he felt were carved and also didn't really like when it was suggested they were natural:

http://forum.forteantimes.com/index...entifiable-artifacts-found-in-virginia.60438/


These posters either claim superior knowledge of a Fortean phenomenon and get angry when asked to provide evidence. Or they have an unshakable belief in something and just will not accept criticism. Some just come here to troll.

I'm not sure why people can't see what this forum is about? We are going to politely, (most of the time), challenge an individual. That's what we do, we are here to seek evidence and explore the impact the weird and wonderful has on the individual. We need to be provided with information we don't just accept it on face value.

There have been great posters who have accepted that this is what we are going to ask and understand it. Recently the Fire Sprites thread is one:

http://forum.forteantimes.com/index.php?threads/fire-sprites.62298/#post-1657805

Or Mr T-H in the panic in the wood thread: http://forum.forteantimes.com/index...chive-merged-pan-ic-in-the-woods.10709/page-6
 
Naughty_Felid said:
[...]

We seen it with the recent Loch Ness monster thread as well:

http://forum.forteantimes.com/index...ographed-the-loch-ness-monster-in-2006.62179/

I feel the guy Justin Case behaved quite similarly to Stuart in some ways.
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Er well, just a bit: cryptic self-aggrandising insinuations of deep insight into topics of interest coated in obstensible newbie nervousness and unnecessary humility quickly followed by leading folk up the garden path followed by passive aggression, followed by actual aggression and abuse. One might surmise that the satisfaction derived from the final slanging-match stage was the entire point of the exercise(s). But then I may be wrong.

At any rate it's unsurprising that people here are suspicious when they see these patterns of behaviour playing out, hence the lack of interest in re-engaging with the narratives of S.Certain - or anyone who seems to be setting out from the same psychological starting point on a trajectory towards self-inflicted victimhood. One of the many fine things about this board is that there is no mean-spiritedness or bullying here...or at least I've never seen it in 15 years on and off. But if anyone seems to be taking the piss someone will eventually, and usually very diplomatically, point it out.
 
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Naughty_Felid said:
Stuart was an odd fellow that promised much and then basically did not deliver whilst becoming more and more truculent with the other forummers, so I'm not sure how happy people are to go down that route again. He also used other accounts to to add to the confusion. His purpose? Who knows?

We seen it with the recent Loch Ness monster thread as well:

http://forum.forteantimes.com/index...ographed-the-loch-ness-monster-in-2006.62179/

I feel the guy Justin Case behaved quite similarly to Stuart in some ways.

Another visitor found some rocks that he felt were carved and also didn't really like when it was suggested they were natural:

http://forum.forteantimes.com/index...entifiable-artifacts-found-in-virginia.60438/


These posters either claim superior knowledge of a Fortean phenomenon and get angry when asked to provide evidence. Or they have an unshakable belief in something and just will not accept criticism. Some just come here to troll.

I'm not sure why people can't see what this forum is about? We are going to politely, (most of the time), challenge an individual. That's what we do, we are here to seek evidence and explore the impact the weird and wonderful has on the individual. We need to be provided with information we don't just accept it on face value.

There have been great posters who have accepted that this is what we are going to ask and understand it. Recently the Fire Sprites thread is one:

http://forum.forteantimes.com/index.php?threads/fire-sprites.62298/#post-1657805

Or Mr T-H in the panic in the wood thread: http://forum.forteantimes.com/index...chive-merged-pan-ic-in-the-woods.10709/page-6
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Yet to see how the talking budgie one pans out...
 
It's more a matter of faith with some, if you accept the definition of faith as being belief without proof, or at least solid evidence. Anything that could endorse that faith will then be seized upon: in mainstream religion look at splinters of the true cross or St John's finger bones - respectively enough to build a barn or construct a catacomb. In Fortean interests definitive proof is by definition lacking, so we have to debate the objective quality of the evidence presented - where there is any. Paradoxically the less objective "proof" the more entrenched some become - try engaging a fundamentalist of any creed about lack of evidence for, say, creationism: their response will be "But can't you see the proof is all around you?" Ditto conspiracy theorists (there's no evidence because it's been covered up by them, etc etc.)

As a result, to some minds with a cardinal viewpoint, any piece of what to them constitutes "evidence" will be seized upon, and maginified to become unassailable: indeed, in some cases said "evidence" leads in itself to the beliefs, whereupon it becomes a self-sustaining ecosystem. Once those beliefs take hold - ie become a faith - it can become impossible to loosen them again: what starts as debate can then become indignation that anyone could be so foolish as to not see this golden, glowing proof before their eyes, and then effectively a sulk when they take their ball away again as people aren't playing their game. Impersonal, unbiased analysis becomes a personal attack against someone's entire world-view. With such people it will always be nigh-impossible to have a productive discussion, and often as not will end in raised voices.
 
stuneville said:
It's more a matter of faith with some, if you accept the definition of faith as being belief without proof, or at least solid evidence. Anything that could endorse that faith will then be seized upon: in mainstream religion look at splinters of the true cross or St John's finger bones - respectively enough to build a barn or construct a catacomb. In Fortean interests definitive proof is by definition lacking, so we have to debate the objective quality of the evidence presented - where there is any. Paradoxically the less objective "proof" the more entrenched some become - try engaging a fundamentalist of any creed about lack of evidence for, say, creationism: their response will be "But can't you see the proof is all around you?" Ditto conspiracy theorists (there's no evidence because it's been covered up by them, etc etc.)

As a result, to some minds with a cardinal viewpoint, any piece of what to them constitutes "evidence" will be seized upon, and maginified to become unassailable: indeed, in some cases said "evidence" leads in itself to the beliefs, whereupon it becomes a self-sustaining ecosystem. Once those beliefs take hold - ie become a faith - it can become impossible to loosen them again: what starts as debate can then become indignation that anyone could be so foolish as to not see this golden, glowing proof before their eyes, and then effectively a sulk when they take their ball away again as people aren't playing their game. Impersonal, unbiased analysis becomes a personal attack against someone's entire world-view. With such people it will always be nigh-impossible to have a productive discussion, and often as not will end in raised voices.
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In a nutshell- if someone believes something, it's next to impossible to change their mind...

Online- this impossibility rises exponentially.


mjaxmi1mntlhnmewmzayothmyjjm.png
 
Fair enough. Just thought I would bring it up again, foolishly admittedly. Would be good if we did hear of personal accounts on here about the case on here in future mind. I'm especially interested as I grew up about a mile down the road in Enfield and it's one of the few things the place is actually known for.

I'll put my own spin onto SC.. whose to say it wasn't Janet all along?
 
cpm82 said:
Fair enough. Just thought I would bring it up again, foolishly admittedly. Would be good if we did hear of personal accounts on here about the case on here in future mind. I'm especially interested as I grew up about a mile down the road in Enfield and it's one of the few things the place is actually known for.
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Nothing to be apologetic for at all! It's a great story and thanks for your input.

Love your avatar by the way.


cpm82 said:
...whose to say it wasn't Janet all along?
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It was one, or both, of the girls I'd say pretty much undoubtedly. Very strange little case. They made monkeys out of grown men. I always have the rather disturbing idea that there was something very dark and sexual going on in that house.
 
cpm82 said:
Also this Simon Certain fellow from some of the other threads about the Enfield case...couldn't he basically be Billy Hodgson under a pseudonym? He seems to know of considerable 'insider' information. Just putting it out there.
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Thing with insider information is it's either checkable, and therefore available elsewhere, or it's useless and could just be made up on the spot.

Coastaljames said:
It was one, or both, of the girls I'd say pretty much undoubtedly. Very strange little case. They made monkeys out of grown men. I always have the rather disturbing idea that there was something very dark and sexual going on in that house.
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I don't think there was anything sexual about the Enfield case, but I do think it was highly exploitative, irresponsible, and highly unsavoury. What we had was Grosse's desperate need to believe, GLP's strong desire to write another book, Peggy Hodgson's lack of ability to cope and very likely deferential attitude to men like Grosse and Playfair, all of which ended up with two young girls finding themselves very much out of their depth with their antics.

As I've said before this couldn't happen now, back then though it was a different world. I don't know why some people pine for it.
 
^ Good post.

Maybe I mean more "psycho-sexual". But yes, agree with the points you make and "highly unsavoury" describes my own feelings about it well.


Grubby.
 
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Coastaljames said:
^ Good post.

Maybe I mean more "psycho-sexual". But yes, agree with the points you make and "highly unsavoury" describes my own feelings about it well.


Grubby.
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Thanks, and yes 'grubby' it is.

Nothing to see from a paranormal perspective, but from a sort of sociological perspective it's pretty informative, as well as a step by step guide to how a landmark case evolves.

Janet ended up in the Maudsley, on more than one occasion, each time the 'phenomena' stopped. Conclusion according to Grosse and Playfair? That she was the focus of activity. Really?
 
oldrover said:
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Thanks, and yes 'grubby' it is.

Nothing to see from a paranormal perspective, but from a sort of sociological perspective it's pretty informative, as well as a step by step guide to how a landmark case evolves.

Janet ended up in the Maudsley, on more than one occasion, each time the 'phenomena' stopped. Conclusion according to Grosse and Playfair? That she was the focus of activity. Really?
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Brother Johnny went reform school and died only four years after the case. Bit of a mess really. Father completely AWOL in terms of input and opinion..
 
Yep. I think it's reasonable to speculate that it wasn't a terribly happy home for much of the time.

Whatever the truth about the case I have always felt particularly sorry for Mrs Hodgson in that despite the stress and bewilderment she was suffering - at what was already a very difficult time - I suspect she was mostly relegated to the back of the queue when it came to attention and support.
 
Andy_X said:
Yep. I think it's reasonable to speculate that it wasn't a terribly happy home for much of the time.

Whatever the truth about the case I have always felt particularly sorry for Mrs Hodgson in that despite the stress and bewilderment she was suffering - at what was already a very difficult time - I suspect she was mostly relegated to the back of the queue when it came to attention and support.
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Yes, me too.
 
cpm82 said:
Brother Johnny went reform school and died only four years after the case. Bit of a mess really. Father completely AWOL in terms of input and opinion..
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Yes, and as I say, Janet (can't remember exactly how old she was at the time now) was an inpatient at the Maudsley on more than one occasion. So not a happy or healthy environment, unlikely to have been helped by couple of 'authority figures' turning up and reinforcing the most disturbing explanation you could draw from a couple of young kid's antics.

But they had their own agendas to push, and the story struck a chord with the press in that more 'innocent' time.
 
I suppose the 'South Shields poltergeist' is the most recent similar case in terms of tabloid attention but can't say I recall any details of the domestic setup. Can any comparisons be drawn? I don't recall there being any significant follow-up to the briefly sensational press coverage.
 
oldrover said:
Yes, and as I say, Janet (can't remember exactly how old she was at the time now) was an inpatient at the Maudsley on more than one occasion. So not a happy or healthy environment, unlikely to have been helped by couple of 'authority figures' turning up and reinforcing the most disturbing explanation you could draw from a couple of young kid's antics.
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And men too. Grown men suddenly being a part of the household and being in thrall to two disturbed adolescent girls. Wasn't it Grosse who even moved in with them? All very dodgy in my opinion.
 
Coastaljames said:
And men too. Grown men suddenly being a part of the household and being in thrall to two disturbed adolescent girls. Wasn't it Grosse who even moved in with them? All very dodgy in my opinion.
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Dodgy how?
 
cpm82 said:
Dodgy how?
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For the reasons discussed above mate.

It's known that "poltergeist activity" is more often than not based around disturbed adolescent girls. A lot of this disturbance is related to sexual and hormonal energy. The Enfield incident allowed such adolescent girls to suddenly be the centre of attention to a host of older men. One, in fact, even moved in with the husband/fatherless family. I dunno...just seems...dodgy...to me.

As our friend Old Rover wrote- it wouldn't be allowed to happen today and with good reason I think.
 
Yep something definitely rings home when you join all the dots together.

I do believe something 'paranormal' occurred but the more I look into it, the more I think it stems from Janet and events she had endured. A release of tension tantamount to a breakdown.
 
cpm82 said:
I do believe something 'paranormal' occurred but the more I look into it, the more I think it stems from Janet and events she had endured. A release of tension tantamount to a breakdown.
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I think that depends on one's interpretation of "paranormal"...but yes- something odd, something unusual, something probably not that healthy did happen in that place.
 
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
Coastaljames said:
I think that depends on one's interpretation of "paranormal"...but yes- something odd, something unusual, something probably not that healthy did happen in that place.
Click to expand...

Think we're both rather good at skirting around what could be said to be honest CJ

That said I didn't get where I am today skirting around issues.. :)
 
cpm82 said:
Think we're both rather good at skirting around what could be said to be honest CJ
Click to expand...

No, I don't know- I really don't know what happened in that house. I only know what I feel about it.

The house is still there right? Could you get a pic and post it? Would be fascinated to see.
 
Coastaljames said:
A lot of this disturbance is related to sexual and hormonal energy. The Enfield incident allowed such adolescent girls to suddenly be the centre of attention to a host of older men. One, in fact, even moved in with the husband/fatherless family. I dunno...just seems...dodgy...to me.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't one of the sisters have said something by now..?
 
cpm82 said:
Janet also ended up marrying a considerably older man from what I've gathered through research..
Click to expand...

Yes, that is interesting. I had no idea that thee was much of a trail between shortly after the events and her starting to pop up on documentaries about ten years ago.
 
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