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Britain: Police State?

Yithian said:
...if there were even a modest increase in the number of those found guilty and given custodial sentences, the prison system would be unable to accommodate the increased population...
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Yet prison is the one punishment that crims fear.

Despite the proliferation of courses and programmes and probation and ASBOs and CRASBOs and “Community Payback” and all the other comedy sentences handed out by Mickey Mouse courts, it’s porridge that takes the stuffing out of them (if you’ll pardon a mixed metaphor).

Here’s a little piece of info that’s an open secret in law enforcement/court circles: Ignore all of the alternatives listed above, and the pocket-money fines paid off at 50p per week, and Anger Management or Learning Skills training. As far as crims are concerned there are only two dispositions possible at magistrates’ court:

a) Prison, or;

b) A “walkout”.

maximus otter
 
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Ah the irony! A Thread which was started to warn about how Britain was turning into a Police State has now brought those who want just that!
 
ramonmercado said:
But who decides that someone is really actually guilty after being found not guilty? The media? You?

But how? Should all crimes result in a penalty of decades in prison? What sort of society would that result in?
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Ok, I wasn't going to use this. But I feel it may bring it home to those who use your above arguments.

A few years ago, in the early evening, there was a knock on the door. And it was the police.
'Do you own a Citroen XX XX XXX ?

Yes, I do.

Do you know where it is at the moment ?

Yes, it's outside my gate; let's go look'

And, of course, it wasn't there.

The police had been driving through our estate and recognised a local scumbag sat in a car (mine) and they arrested him as he tried to escape. He threw away the keys as he ran.

Now, what had happened is that this scumbag had walked down the path to my house, opened the door and taken two coats from a rack in the hallway. And in one of the pockets were my car keys. So he took the car.

At the time there was a group of relations in various parts of the house. I was watching tv in a room with a glass door that the person had passed to get to the coats. Never saw anything.

I never got the keys back and as the house keys were on the same bunch I had to do a frantic lock change to protect the home. Also had to change the padlocks on my sheds, and the steering and door locks on the car.

The police recovered the coats from a co-thief of this scumbag. but I couldn't have them back just yet as they were wanted for evidence. And as I was going on holiday the following week I had to buy a new coat.

This person was a very well known criminal. and had been up before the beak on a few occasions. But never locked up.

So, what justice was heaped on his head ? Remember, habitual thug and criminal, caught by the police in a stolen car, sat in the driver seat with the keys from a stolen coat obtained by illegal entry to a house.

He got nothing.

I got a letter from the CPS saying that he wasn't going to be prosecuted. And that they couldn't reveal his name as he was under age. That is bollocks, he was eighteen at the time. And his name had already been posted in the local paper.

And there was a sequel.

A few month later this person got into an argument with someone and, using a piece of timber, smashed this person up so badly that he had to be formally identified by his teeth.

This time he was sent down.

Proper justice would have seen him taken down into the cellar and strangled before his vile corpus was thrown into a furnace.

And these people breed; man do they breed. We have whole estates that are crawling with similar people who the law know it is wasting it's time rounding up as the judiciary will probably let them go. Free to wander off smirking into the sunset, already planning their next crime.

INT21
 
ramonmercado said:
Ah the irony! A Thread which was started to warn about how Britain was turning into a Police State has now brought those who want just that!
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Not really, The thread title is Britain: a police state ?

Note the interrogative; it's a question.

And clearly Britain is far from a police state..
 
ramonmercado said:
So you imprison everyone who uses drugs?

You're going to have to build a lot of prisons. A lot of extra tax to be paid.

Legalise and control drugs instead.

As I said you're no fascist but you do come across as a cranky old git at times!
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Too late. The illegal framework is fully established and no-one is going to make ALL illegal drugs legal, They will simply switch to something else and get people hooked on that.
 
INT21 said:
Proper justice would have seen him taken down into the cellar and strangled before his vile corpus was thrown into a furnace.
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You don't really want a justice system then.

I understand how infuriating it is to be the victim of crime, but this is silly talk.
 
INT21 said:
Not really, The thread title is Britain: a police state ?

Note the interrogative; it's a question.

And clearly Britain is far from a police state..
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I suppose it depends on how you define a police state. It's a long time since I read 1984 but I seem to recall they didn't worry too much about crime among the proles. Might be confusing that with something else.
 
Cochise,

No, you are correct. it was crime amongst the controlling level they were concerned about. I forget the proper term for them.
 
Yithian said:
You don't really want a justice system then.

I understand how infuriating it is to be the victim of crime, but this is silly talk.
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No, it isn't 'infuriating' . Infuriating is 'something that causes a feeling off fury'.

And yes, I do want a justice system . But i want a system that does exactly that; deals out sentences that deter the offender from ever doing it again.

And this isn't happening.

Ramonmercado's solution of just make this stuff legal and tax it is, to me , a non starter. It will not stop the social collapse brought about by the use of these drugs.

It is being tried wit marijuana, what's next on the list, Cocaine, Heroin ?

When do you stop ? when you have a country that is totally dependent on habit forming and addictive chemicals ?

It appears from news reports that America is already having problems filling some jobs because the applicants are failing dug tests.

What would be you answer to that ? Maybe don't do the tests ?

If you can stop people from smoking in public places, then you can stop these other drug uses.

It just needs the will power. It need not be drastic; at least not for the first time someone is caught. But they need tobe sure in their own mind that next time will be very different.
 
INT21 said:
No, it isn't 'infuriating' . Infuriating is 'something that causes a feeling off fury'.

And yes, I do want a justice system . But i want a system that does exactly that; deals out sentences that deter the offender from ever doing it again.
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You said taken to a cellar, strangled and burnt in a furnace.

Are you proposing a justice system with torture and execution as sentencing options?

As to drugs, I believe that a combination of the approaches Portugal and or Sweden have taken is the only sane way forward.

Portugal:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal

Switzerland:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-serve-as-model-experts-idUSTRE69O3VI20101025
 
Yithian said:
And if there were even a modest increase in the number of those found guilty and given custodial sentences, the prison system would be unable to accommodate the increased population...
Click to expand...

To which Maximus Otter responded: <<Yet prison is the one punishment that crims fear.>>

(Sorry, I haven't really got multi-quote working yet.)

Hmm, prison, the one punishment that criminals fear, is overcrowded with criminals who presumably didn't fear it.

Historically, criminals have continued their activities despite the death sentence (at various times, torture and death by means such as crucifixion, disembowling, burning at the stake, impalement, stoning...) and despite the risk of transportation to America or Australia, and despite the loss of all legal rights (being declared outlaws) and despite all the risks that go with becoming embroiled with tougher, more experienced criminals.

Fear only stops the criminals who are timid, or who are not yet desperate.

In a society where it is increasingly difficult to get into prison because of the proliferation of other sorts of punishment, a prison sentence is sometimes seen as a status symbol and a networking opportunity. 5 years in a tough prison will either ruin your life or will establish you in a career as a criminal. In the so called "criminal community", time served has a similar status to a good university degree or a period of military service in the mainstream community.

Trouble is, those of us who think about such things, and argue nicely on the internet, and consider the ethics, the economics, and the social cost to the innocent family members, tend to see the whole thing very differently.

I spent one day in a police cell, followed by a week on police bail, 30 years ago, and I was terrified of the potential consequences for my career, relationship, reputation, etc. That does not apply to those people who see it as one of the normal risks of a life which offers little hope of advancement through normal legal means.
 
Yithian,

Ok, I'll compromise. How about a bullet through the head then thrown into the furnace.

Basically it's execution followed by cremation which ever way you look at it.

I have read both your links.

And they both show the same thing.

The authorities capitulated and gave in to the junkies.

You will be aware that Sweden is currently beginning to doubt their free wheeling rules. They may have worked a few years ago, but not in today's social climate.
 
INT21 said:
The authorities capitulated and gave in to the junkies.
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And reduced death, crime and addiction.

'Victory' by your standards would bear no fruit except some kind of competitive satisfaction for the hidebound.

Law is not simply a moral code (although it may speak in consonance with such codes), it's a set of means to bringing about desired effects. If you want a safer and happier community, you modify your laws accordingly. You don't 'win' by punishing criminals and making them suffer; you win by turning them away from crime--which recidivism rates show is not a direct effect of either deterrence or imprisonment.

I've met junkies, they are most wrecks living very crappy lives, not sinister fiends celebrating society's weakness in failing to punish them for their flaunting the law. I don't advocate changing our treatment of them for their good--it isn't out of compassion--but rather it's for our good.
 
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Mikefule,

The difference is that the option of even a simple hanging for people who deliberately gun down others or kill them with a knife, motor vehicle etc is no longer available.

So the killer KNOWS he will not be executed. And it is unlikely he will spend the rest of his days in jail if he behaves himself.

But those who were on the wrong end of the crimes are marked for life. I think traumatised is the correct word.

I still half expect my car to be missing when I walk up to the gate. And wake at every slight sound during the night.
 
Yithian said:
And reduced death, crime and addiction.

'Victory' by your standards would bear no fruit except some kind of competitive satisfaction.
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No, the eradication of these problems would result in people being able to stop wondering if the net time they are on the street maybe some smack head will steal their handbag or mobile phone or wallet to feed his/her habit.

It is a deep multi-layered problem. And it's getting worst.
 
Sorry, added an edit since you responded:

Yithian said:
You don't 'win' by punishing criminals and making them suffer; you win by turning them away from crime--which recidivism rates show is not a direct effect of either deterrence or imprisonment.
Click to expand...
 
INT21 said:
The difference is that the option of even a simple hanging for people who deliberately gun down others or kill them with a knife, motor vehicle etc is no longer available.
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Where it is available, it doesn't seem to work?

The whole thing is much more complicated than that I think.
 
The point is, the people being sent to prison are in many cases already hardened criminals who have offended many times and not been punished. It's already too late. They should have had a taste of prison much earlier, say after the third offence. If prison is going to 'cure' them, a month in one of the more restrictive prisons should do it.

I like mikefule have spent a short period in a Police cell - not even a prison - and it was enough to convince me I wasn't going to do anything that was going to get me more of it unless it was a case of defending my family.
 
INT21 said:
It stops the perpetrator doing it again, would you not agree ?
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only while they are physically locked up - and some crime can still be perpetrated from inside the walls.

How many prisons are you going to build?
 
Frideswide said:
only while they are physically locked up - and some crime can still be perpetrated from inside the walls.

How many prisons are you going to build?
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Firstly we were talking about executing the killers. I don't think any of the executed ones have come back to kill again. Maybe caused the destruction of a few sets of underwear in ghost hunts.

And as for how many prisons does one need ?

Well, enough to rid the streets of the criminals. And they should be proper prisons, not convicts social centres.
 
I remember when local bobbies gave a similar impression.
 
INT21 said:
Yithian,

Ok, I'll compromise. How about a bullet through the head then thrown into the furnace.

Basically it's execution followed by cremation which ever way you look at it.

I have read both your links.

And they both show the same thing.

The authorities capitulated and gave in to the junkies.

You will be aware that Sweden is currently beginning to doubt their free wheeling rules. They may have worked a few years ago, but not in today's social climate.
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And what about miscarriages of justice?
 
INT21 said:
In very many cases there is absolutely no doubt that the accused is guilty.

And where is the justice for the victim ?
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We have a Thread about Miscarriages Of Justice. If Capital Punishment hadn't been abolished 50 years ago then scores if not hundreds of innocent people would have been hanged. These people had been convicted of terrible crimes in some cases.

Where is the justice for those innocent victims of Capital Punishment like Timothy Evans?

You cannot be unaware of many of these cases yet you still want Capital Punishment.
 
Reminder - this thread has a topic, and individual platforms on capital punishment/judicial murder (to be even handed) don't come under it.

I'm tidying up posts which have followed on from a post which stirred the mods to action, and removed that "trigger" initial post so that people aren't mislead in future.
 
Possibly Bob61 could place his post about the UK tightening up it's grip on citizens here ?

It seemed to fit the thread criteria.

police control etc.
 
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