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The Ray Alan Time-Slip Case (Chesterfield; 1969)

Might be an idea to check out some time. Difficult for me at the moment, but I might be able to ask one of my Rougham contacts. I'm not even sure Phil Sage is still with us, he was quite ill. (Plus getting on for 100 now!) Actually the Records Office should have an idea -- I'll email Jean.

I have a real problem getting that mapping site to search for what I want! Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I now can't find Bradfield or Rougham on it. You obviously know how to deal with it, anyway.
 
Might be an idea to check out some time. Difficult for me at the moment, but I might be able to ask one of my Rougham contacts. I'm not even sure Phil Sage is still with us, he was quite ill. (Plus getting on for 100 now!) Actually the Records Office should have an idea -- I'll email Jean.

I have a real problem getting that mapping site to search for what I want! Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I now can't find Bradfield or Rougham on it. You obviously know how to deal with it, anyway.
Well, funnily enough I also had trouble yesterday. The page wouldn't load for ages and I had to keep trying. Normally it works fine though. Just type 'side by side mapping' and you'll come to it. I just tried it and it's working ok again now. Just remember that you have to choose a year from the drop down bar on the left. There are only three or so that I use as some years/descriptions don't show as much detail as others. As a side note, when I try to send a map to my friend who uses his smartphone for the internet, the maps never come through properly. It's usually of some remote part of Scotland for some reason.
 
The site must have had a bad day -- I know the feeling.
 
Jean says the Bury Records Office index has no reference to the Bradfield dairy at all. She would do a paid search of course, but I think I will keep checking the maps...
 
I just had a good look at the map showing the building in Bradfield, and it looks as if the position of the road is out. The centre of the building does seem to match the dairy farm, but it looks farther away from the road so gives the impression of being what the ladies saw. So -- not the house. I also looked at the 25 inch map, which confirms the position of the dairy. I scanned farther north and found a building marked at the end of Gypsy Lane exactly where Jean Batram saw her Georgian house.
 
I just had a good look at the map showing the building in Bradfield, and it looks as if the position of the road is out. The centre of the building does seem to match the dairy farm, but it looks farther away from the road so gives the impression of being what the ladies saw. So -- not the house. I also looked at the 25 inch map, which confirms the position of the dairy. I scanned farther north and found a building marked at the end of Gypsy Lane exactly where Jean Batram saw her Georgian house.
Yes, I saw that building on Gypsy Lane too. I will have another look at the Bradfield site also.
 
I just had a good look at the map showing the building in Bradfield, and it looks as if the position of the road is out. The centre of the building does seem to match the dairy farm, but it looks farther away from the road so gives the impression of being what the ladies saw. So -- not the house. I also looked at the 25 inch map, which confirms the position of the dairy. I scanned farther north and found a building marked at the end of Gypsy Lane exactly where Jean Batram saw her Georgian house.
If you compare it with the map from a few years later, there is definitely a change though. The early map seems to show (part of) the building on the now empty field, just to the west of the modern building.
 

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If you compare it with the map from a few years later, there is definitely a change though. The early map seems to show (part of) the building on the now empty field, just to the west of the modern building.
Difficult to judge. If you assume that the end of the footpaths shown corresponds to the (now single) path that I took, that would indicate where the gap in the hedge is and possibly where the gates were. If the ladies saw a rooftop in the middle distance, presumably roughly level with the gates, that would place the house somewhere in the empty field to the south beyond lot 270.
 
Difficult to judge. If you assume that the end of the footpaths shown corresponds to the (now single) path that I took, that would indicate where the gap in the hedge is and possibly where the gates were. If the ladies saw a rooftop in the middle distance, presumably roughly level with the gates, that would place the house somewhere in the empty field to the south beyond lot 270.
Yes. Damn it! Back to the drawing board then.
 
Found this although as you say it's probably not far enough south.
 

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I immediately thought of the 'Time Team' bods when thinking about GPR for the Rougham site(s)! I don't think they'd be too interested in a 'ghost house' though to be honest. Too 'unscientific' for them. - The Goddard case does mention how the uniforms he saw the crews wearing on the ground didn't come into use until four or five years later, which would suggest he hadn't flown over a different airfield I suppose. (Unless it was something he wasn't privy to of course). Also it was Goddard who took the squadron photo where the airman who had been killed a few days earlier appeared on the back row, although I have read reports of it where no one with the airman's name could be found who was at that base.

The 'Time Team' bods are a company who operate GPR - there are many such companies about, and they will turn out for anyone who can afford to pay for them!
 
The 'Time Team' bods are a company who operate GPR - there are many such companies about, and they will turn out for anyone who can afford to pay for them!
Yes that's true. It's always comes down to money!
 
Yes that's true. It's always comes down to money!
True!
Do you have a date for that map? The impression I get is of something too small to be a building, maybe just a shed or something, quite close to the "gate".
 
True!
Do you have a date for that map? The impression I get is of something too small to be a building, maybe just a shed or something, quite close to the "gate".
Hey, sorry for the delay, I got diverted as usual. Yes, I also though it was too small, but anything will do at the moment- lack of info is becoming too infuriating! It is from 1883-84.
 
The 1837 map that I used in the report also shows something in the relevant area. I have tried to sharpen the image a bit:
 

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The 1837 map that I used in the report also shows something in the relevant area. I have tried to sharpen the image a bit:
Yes I think that's the best one we've got and possibly far enough south from the road. - (I notice the wood on the right doesn't yet have the 'flare' at the north end of it on this map.) Am I correct in saying that there are two public footpaths running from Church Road to Freewood Street here?
 
Just had a quick look on Google Maps and on street view there are clearly two signed footpaths.
 
Just had a quick look on Google Maps and on street view there are clearly two signed footpaths.
Thought so. On your old map though, there only appears to be one. I wondered if the one on the left wasn't there then due to the fact it would have meant it would've run throught the grounds of our 'house'. I'd love to have a walk around here and Kingshall/Gypsy Lane.
 
Google Earth or Google Maps both give you a street view and I have lately used the latter more as it loads faster. You can wander around the whole area and get a good idea of how things seem -- you might spot something everyone else has missed! It is rare to find anyone else walking around Rougham, by the way -- although it isn't way out in the country, aside from passing cars it feels quite isolated.
 
Google Earth or Google Maps both give you a street view and I have lately used the latter more as it loads faster. You can wander around the whole area and get a good idea of how things seem -- you might spot something everyone else has missed! It is rare to find anyone else walking around Rougham, by the way -- although it isn't way out in the country, aside from passing cars it feels quite isolated.
Yes, it's great. A bit too addictive though to be honest! Do you get down there often?
 
Yes, it's great. A bit too addictive though to be honest! Do you get down there often?
Not these days. Domestic issues take priority, also if you are reliant on buses, it's rather sad. One route goes to Rougham, the other to Bradfield. When I tried the Bradfield bus, as I got off the driver remarked that I was the only passenger he had known ever to get off there... When we decided to move here in 2003, we had no idea how abysmal the local buses are in Suffolk. Living in London for 50 odd years gets you used to being able to go anywhere you want at any time by public transport.
 
Not these days. Domestic issues take priority, also if you are reliant on buses, it's rather sad. One route goes to Rougham, the other to Bradfield. When I tried the Bradfield bus, as I got off the driver remarked that I was the only passenger he had known ever to get off there... When we decided to move here in 2003, we had no idea how abysmal the local buses are in Suffolk. Living in London for 50 odd years gets you used to being able to go anywhere you want at any time by public transport.
Yes, public transport is pretty dire all over (outside of London) I think. Everywhere I've lived anyway. I don't enjoy driving a car anymore, not to mention the cost of it, and I've been considering a little scooter lately, (just for local use), but the climate (and roads) here put me off somewhat. I think I would be far more suited to the South of France.
 
Yes, public transport is pretty dire all over (outside of London) I think. Everywhere I've lived anyway. I don't enjoy driving a car anymore, not to mention the cost of it, and I've been considering a little scooter lately, (just for local use), but the climate (and roads) here put me off somewhat. I think I would be far more suited to the South of France.
I think I would be more suited to a nice Greek island! The real shock when we first moved here was when my wife took me to a nice restaurant in town, and afterwards, around 7pm, we sat waiting for a bus... until a kind passer-by informed us that there were no buses after 6! We can't always afford taxis -- in fact, recently, usually when taking our dog in to the vet, I have had to use my wife's mobility scooter..
Not sure if you follow that very good forum on Reddit, Glitch in the Matrix, always lots of interesting cases. One recently concerned people who have experienced a brief period of blackness all over a small area, and it reminded me of the blackness that filled half of a room in that bungalow at Gypsy Lane. I thought it was unique to Rougham, but I have come upon two similar cases, one in Liverpool.
 
I think I would be more suited to a nice Greek island! The real shock when we first moved here was when my wife took me to a nice restaurant in town, and afterwards, around 7pm, we sat waiting for a bus... until a kind passer-by informed us that there were no buses after 6! We can't always afford taxis -- in fact, recently, usually when taking our dog in to the vet, I have had to use my wife's mobility scooter..
Not sure if you follow that very good forum on Reddit, Glitch in the Matrix, always lots of interesting cases. One recently concerned people who have experienced a brief period of blackness all over a small area, and it reminded me of the blackness that filled half of a room in that bungalow at Gypsy Lane. I thought it was unique to Rougham, but I have come upon two similar cases, one in Liverpool.
Terrible, although being quite reclusive, restaurants/cinemas et al don't factor into my life! -I will have a look at that site.
 
Not these days. Domestic issues take priority, also if you are reliant on buses, it's rather sad. One route goes to Rougham, the other to Bradfield. When I tried the Bradfield bus, as I got off the driver remarked that I was the only passenger he had known ever to get off there... When we decided to move here in 2003, we had no idea how abysmal the local buses are in Suffolk. Living in London for 50 odd years gets you used to being able to go anywhere you want at any time by public transport.
Nothing to do with Rougham et al, but your mention of living in London for 50 years got me thinking that you may like this site; https://www.reelstreets.com/ It shows many 'then and now' shots of location filming. Even though I don't know London really, it's very interesting to see the changes (or how things are still the same in some cases). It shows photos of films that were shot all over the country, but there are a lot down the London area you may be interested in.
 
Nothing to do with Rougham et al, but your mention of living in London for 50 years got me thinking that you may like this site; https://www.reelstreets.com/ It shows many 'then and now' shots of location filming. Even though I don't know London really, it's very interesting to see the changes (or how things are still the same in some cases). It shows photos of films that were shot all over the country, but there are a lot down the London area you may be interested in.
Thanks for that! I have sent a message to you ...
 
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Regards the Chesterfield time slip case (also much enjoyed reading the Rougham one mentioned in this thread btw), super interested to hear about it since I’m Chesterfield born and bred, and I’ve never come across it before! I’ve been looking through old photos of the area around the Chesterfield Hotel (formally known as the Station Hotel and incidentally sadly closed in 2015 and was recently demolished) and railway station. I know there was a sweet shop/tobacconist near the hotel at one time (see arrows), this was on the left side of Corporation Street coming up from the station. As per the description of the shop being “hut like” it very much sounds like this one and is in the right position for Ray Alan’s description. The whole block of buildings was demolished late 70s or early 80s, I’m not sure when the sweet shop closed but can see if I can find out.

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I stayed a couple of nights at the Station Hotel in, I think, the 1980s. I was visiting the Post Office's Finance Department (but my memory isn't clear as to the exact purpose). I do remember the famous spire and there was a lot of excitement because the local football team was doing well in some cup or other.
 
Decimalisation didn't come in until August 1971, and old-style shillings and florins were still legal tender for some time after that. So there shouldn't have been a problem with 'old coins' in 1969; all the old coins (except the farthing) were still legal tender at that time, even the thruppence. Even if his change was all in old money it would still have been legal tender, and perfectly familiar to him.

However, if Ray Alan had some of the new 5p, 10p or 50p coins that had already been introduced, they would have been unfamiliar to the proprietor of a shop a few years in the past. So it should have been his own money that caused the confusion, not the change he received, assuming it was a real timeslip.

I wonder if this event happened a few years later than he remembered, or if the shopkeeper was not familiar with the new coins for some reason. I remember a lot of old people were resistant to the change, and preferred the old money, especially the ten-bob note.
 
know there was a sweet shop/tobacconist near the hotel at one time (see arrows), this was on the left side of Corporation Street coming up from the station. As per the description of the shop being “hut like” it very much sounds like this one and is in the right position for Ray Alan’s description. The whole block of buildings was demolished late 70s or early 80s, I’m not sure when the sweet shop closed but can see if I can find out.
This small block of one-story buildings (including the apparent tobacconists) doesn't appear on the 1888-1913 six inch map or the 1892-1914 25 inch map. But it does appear in the 1:25,000 1937-1961 map, as a fuzzy blob. I suspect that (if this were a real timeslip) the shop would not date back to before 1914. The shops appear to have been derelict by 1982.

I've been researching the old stations of Chesterfield recently; there were three at one time, two of which have been completely obliterated. There must have been some complex shunting moves possible in the old Chesterfield area at one point. Much of this had already disappeared by 1969.
 
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