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Hong Kong Protests & The Umbrella Movement

So how many Hong Kongers do you want to see die? Are you aware that one such citizen posts here?
 
How do you define 'a few'?

Rather more elastically that most English users, I'd say.
 
So how many Hong Kongers do you want to see die? Are you aware that one such citizen posts here?

How many police officers do you wish to see blinded or receiving first degree burns in the course of carrying out their duty ?

To answer your question, non. But I would like to see a few hundred carted of to mainland labour camps .

INT21.
 
GNC, Re citizen.

Yes I am. I trust that the aforesaid citizen is law abiding and, if joining in any legal protests only acts within the law.

If not, then let the power of the law apply.
 
How many police officers do you wish to see blinded or receiving first degree burns in the course of carrying out their duty ?

To answer your question, non. But I would like to see a few hundred carted of to mainland labour camps .

INT21.

Obviously I'd like to see as many police officers as possible seriously injured.

NO of course not! What kind of question is that?! How about China acquiesce and allow democratic elections instead? It'll cost them nothing.
 
We are heading down the political track.

But you seem to have missed the fact that China is a one party communist state.

To them, all this is an annoying flea bite.

And what kind of a question is it ? it is the kind that does not appear to be getting any attention.

INT21.
 
If you're talking about me, I'm not a citizen, just a resident, and I haven't participated in any protests legal or otherwise.

I must say I think that wishing anyone to be beaten up or sent to labour camps is a bit much. People in Hong Kong are used to certain freedoms that we also take for granted in the UK (democracy not included). I'd like to think that in the UK we would also go to lengths to defend those freedoms were they to be taken away suddenly.

Ramon, I'm sure not all the violent protestors are agents provocateurs. But if at least some of them are, that's a conspiracy, the subject of this thread.
 
Last night, police firing tear gas and rubber bullets directly into underground train carriages. What are the odds that all the people on that carriage were protestors?


EDIT: meanwhile a few stops away at Yau Ma Tei, medics are forced to stand facing the wall like naughty schoolchildren instead of being allowed to do their jobs.

zc7dajrw6tj31.jpg
 
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Petrols bombs thrown today, by people wearing protestor clothing. Know who doesn't have guns? All civilians in Hong Kong. Know who does? Cops.

View attachment 19861
Man wearing same clothes, shoes and guns as this petrol bomb thrower later purportedly photographed making arrests, showing that he is an undercover police officer and therefore that at least some undercover police officers have been throwing petrol bombs in the guise of protestors.

EDIT: if the second image shows an arrest of course, which is not clear at all.

EDIT 2: apparently the guns issued by police do not match this: file under 'fake news'

caspaZ6dvJ78MgbhZzxx_sjehjhtCdpGyTac-2JzNm4.jpg
 
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Man wearing same clothes, shoes and guns as this petrol bomb thrower later purportedly photographed making arrests, showing that he is an undercover police officer and therefore that at least some undercover police officers have been throwing petrol bombs in the guise of protestors.

EDIT: if the second image shows an arrest of course, which is not clear at all.

EDIT 2: apparently the guns issued by police do not match this: file under 'fake news'

caspaZ6dvJ78MgbhZzxx_sjehjhtCdpGyTac-2JzNm4.jpg
Now the theory doing the rounds is that POs in plain clothes are using LED lights worn on the body to signal their alignment to other police.

 
Now the theory doing the rounds is that POs in plain clothes are using LED lights worn on the body to signal their alignment to other police.

Protesters could make a few of those to add to the confusion.
 
At the moment, it's very hard to tell the truth from the conspiracy theory. I have no idea if that's a real thing or just a rumour. Especially because the pro-protestor side are very active on internet forums, where little things like this can spread like wildfire without being fact-checked.

I personally believe that there are at least some agents provocateurs in operation in this situation; however the whole thing is very muddy and it's hard to see exactly what is going on.
 
I must say I think that wishing anyone to be beaten up or sent to labour camps is a bit much. People in Hong Kong are used to certain freedoms that we also take for granted in the UK (democracy not included). I'd like to think that in the UK we would also go to lengths to defend those freedoms were they to be taken away suddenly.

.

James,

I understand that Lam stepped back from the original cause of unrest. but was not enough for the rioters; it never is.

I aught to make it clear that I have no wish for anyone to be beaten up or sent to labour camps unless they have been caught causing harm to others.

I do find it disturbing that many appear to think that all this crowd violence is acceptable.

I think most people can agree that the majority of people causing the violence are too young to remember the early days. .Post war.
They do not seem to appreciate that China can, and will, shut them down violently if this goes on.

It is having a bad effect upon the world view of Hong Kong. People will simply go elsewhere to do their business. Not a difficult thing these days.

It is very similar to what happens when people in their twenties and thirties, in Europe, start promoting extreme right wing agendas. They did not live through the last war.or even the last two wars. so they do not really appreciate what it was like.

If China does take back Hong Kong then a lot of people are in for a sudden cold shower. And the will regret what they have thrown away.

As for the UK, something similar will not happen. We have too many years of practice at avoiding it. The police in London would not have let the situation get so bad before stepping in and stopping it.

And we are not connected at the hip to anyone the same way Hong Kong is to China.

INT21.
 
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Interestingly in the US you can go to prison for protesting peacefully. Corporations have conspired to have these laws passed.

Doesn't just happen in China.

After protesters disrupted construction of an oil pipeline in North Dakota by chaining themselves to construction equipment and pitching tents along the route, oil and chemical companies found a way to keep it from happening again.

They made it a crime.

The companies, including Koch Industries Inc., Marathon Petroleum Corp.and Energy Transfer Partners LP -- whose Dakota Access project in North Dakota was targeted three years ago -- lobbied state legislatures to effectively outlaw demonstrations near pipelines, chemical plants and other infrastructure. Nine states have gone along so far, in some cases classifying the activities as felonies. More are considering measures.

The lobbying campaign, documented in state disclosures and other records reviewed by Bloomberg News, has raised concerns about corporate influence muzzling free speech.

The new state laws vary, but generally create a new, more serious category of trespassing when it’s done near energy infrastructure and interferes with construction, carrying felony prison sentences of as much as five years and fines of as much as $10,000.

It some cases, it can include activists who have permission from landowners to mount protests in the fields and trees near critical energy infrastructure. Some states have extended penalties to organizations found to have “conspired” in the activity.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ade-states-to-make-pipeline-protests-a-felony


300 people were injured after police used extreme force against protesters.

Dakota Access pipeline: 300 protesters injured after police use water cannons
Twenty-six people hospitalized from ‘mass casualty incident’ that included bone fractures and hypothermia shown in dramatic video footage of standoff
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ine-water-cannon-police-standing-rock-protest

Dakota Access pipeline protester 'may lose her arm' after police standoff
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...sly-hurt-during-police-standoff-standing-rock
 
A disturbing new aspect.

Last night on, I think, Bloomberg, they had a prominent Hong Kong businessman.

He mentioned that for the hardliners it has become a 'martyr' cause. They are willing (or so they say) to die for their rights.

They don't seem concerned about anyone else s right.

So, the fanatics are taking over the mobs.

Haven't we seen this sort of thing before ?

INT21.
 
A disturbing new aspect.

Last night on, I think, Bloomberg, they had a prominent Hong Kong businessman.

He mentioned that for the hardliners it has become a 'martyr' cause. They are willing (or so they say) to die for their rights.

They don't seem concerned about anyone else s right.

So, the fanatics are taking over the mobs.

Haven't we seen this sort of thing before ?

INT21.

Where?
 
Not sure what you mean by 'where ?'.

If it comes round again I'll note down the details.
 
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Looks like China blinked first...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...hina-carrie-lam-protests-latest-a9090966.html

Hong Kong to withdraw China extradition bill as Beijing bows to protesters afters months of demonstrations
Government says Carrie Lam will announce withdrawal at meeting of pro-Beijing legislators

Hong Kong’s chief executive is to announce the formal withdrawal of a controversial extradition bill that sparked weeks of unrest, finally meeting a key demand of the protest movement.
Carrie Lam has called a meeting of pro-Beijing politicians for later on Wednesday afternoon, at which she will describe the full withdrawal of the bill as “a gesture ... to cool down the atmosphere”, the South China Morning Post quoted a source as saying.

The news prompted a surge in Hong Kong stocks after it was also reported on the Cable TV news channel and other local media. A government source confirmed Ms Lam would make the announcement at around 4pm local time.



Hong Kong has been experiencing near-daily protests for the better part of 14 weeks, as anger at a proposed new bill allowing extradition of criminal suspects to mainland China spiralled into a broader movement demanding greater democratic rights.

Ms Lam has previously said the now-suspended extradition bill was “dead”, and promised it would not be revived in the current legislative term. But this was not enough to placate protesters, who made the complete withdrawal of the bill a key tenet of their so-called “five demands”. Other demands include an amnesty from prosecution for protesters, and the right to universal suffrage in the election of Hong Kong’s leader.


Last week the Reuters news agency reported that Ms Lam, who was nominated as a candidate for the chief executive role by Beijing and answers to the Central People’s Government, had proposed the full withdrawal of the bill as a way to ease tensions. The report said the central government rejected the idea and ordered Ms Lam not to give in to any other protest demands. It is highly unlikely that she would attempt to withdraw the bill without Beijing’s consent.

It comes after the release of a leaked audio recording showed Ms Lam telling business leaders she took responsibility for unleashing “unforgivable havoc” on the city with the hugely unpopular bill. At the time it was introduced, Ms Lam argued that the extradition bill would prevent criminals from all over the world using Hong Kong as a safe haven.
In the recording, Ms Lam could be heard saying that she would have liked to “quit” as leader if she could. At a news conference on Tuesday, she said she had never tendered her resignation to Beijing and that she saw quitting as “the easier path”. ”Not resigning was my own choice… I have not given myself the choice to take an easier path and that is to leave,” she said.

Meanwhile, the unrest showed no sign of easing on Tuesday night, with riot police and protesters again clashing in an MTR station and outside the Mong Kok police station.
Police fired beanbag guns and used pepper spray to try and get demonstrators to disperse, and TV footage showed one man being removed from the scene on a stretcher after he was apprehended by the police.

Activists shared the footage, and earlier clips showing his detention, as evidence of police brutality. Protest leaders have called for an independent investigation into police tactics during the current crisis as another of their key demands.

The police, who have repeatedly denied using excessive force, did not immediately respond to a request for comment following Tuesday night’s incident.
 
Unfortunately that's unlikely to satisfy the 'five demands' of the protestors, the fifth being probably the least likely:

5demands.jpg
 
China's ruling cabal has to change its outlook for China to truly progress in the world.
But, I fear they are too deeply entrenched in their ways.
 
Not sure what you mean by 'where ?'.

If it comes round again I'll note down the details.

You asked .... "Haven't we seen this sort of thing before ?"

To which I asked ... where?
 
China's ruling cabal has to change its outlook for China to truly progress in the world.
Do they, though? At the moment it seems like they can do what they like and no other nation will seriously question them.
 
If you want to watch a really good doco on the HK Protests, I was pretty blown away by this Australian one: 4Corners on HK

I was also pleased to hear that Winnie the Pooh, in a rare display of common sense and humanity, finally wants to back down on the extradition bill LINK. Who knows? Perhaps he will even allow Carrie Lam to actually resign?

I love this meme:
Abe + Xi.jpg
 
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You asked .... "Haven't we seen this sort of thing before ?"

To which I asked ... where?

Sorry,

How about Egypt a few years back.

Or any of the Arab Spring countries.

It didn't turn out well for any of them.

INT21.
 
You asked .... "Haven't we seen this sort of thing before ?"

To which I asked ... where?

Of the top of my head...

1936 Spain
1956 Hungary
1988 Poland
1989 East Germany
1989 Romania
1989 China
1990 Mongola

You know, all those times when people decided they wanted some freedom and found that politely asking totalitarian governments to give them it seemed to repeatedly fail.

Damned extremists, wanting rights and democracy!
 
Yep, give them a free vote.

Then they will be really stuffed.
 
Of the top of my head...

1936 Spain
1956 Hungary
1988 Poland
1989 East Germany
1989 Romania
1989 China
1990 Mongola

You know, all those times when people decided they wanted some freedom and found that politely asking totalitarian governments to give them it seemed to repeatedly fail.

Damned extremists, wanting rights and democracy!

Ok we will have to disagree on that one, none of those examples are similar to HK - and East Germany and Poland did manage to escape their evil overlords
 
Ok we will have to disagree on that one, none of those examples are similar to HK - and East Germany and Poland did manage to escape their evil overlords

It detail, all different; in aim, fundamentally similar.
 
Has anybody actually addressed how much of a barrel the pro-democracy protests actually have the "Communists" over? If Xi is seen to crack down on HK too hard, business will flee HK, and China's economy is already slowing down thanks to Trump's trade war. The only think keeping the "Communists" in power is their ability to provide prosperity, and when that is taken away, their primary lever of power becomes the Red Army, which means a return to chaos. One thing is certain, Xi is no Deng, and the question of whether he understands the fragility of his grip on power is moot. There are a lot of Maoists in the Red Army who don't like modern China's prosperity, and see it as a betrayal of the Revolution. As to how many democrats there are in the Red Army... Up for grabs doesn't even begin to describe it.
 
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