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Witches (General; Compendium)

AlchoPwn said:
Yeah, I got a bit triggered by that comment. On the other hand the "point" is actually also completely factually incorrect. It is hardly "liberal" to be accepting of what is a very ancient religious tradition, just because it is a little nonconformist. For me that is merely symptomatic of the militant intolerance of middle eastern monotheisms.
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Is there any evidence of a continuous religious tradition running through the activities of those people considered witches in medieval history?
 
AlchoPwn said:
Yeah, I got a bit triggered by that comment. On the other hand the "point" is actually also completely factually incorrect. It is hardly "liberal" to be accepting of what is a very ancient religious tradition, just because it is a little nonconformist. For me that is merely symptomatic of the militant intolerance of middle eastern monotheisms.
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@AlchoPwn The whole post was a joke. Moving on to critique the end section makes no more sense than the reaction to the first part!

I suggest that you unwrap yourself from it as a post and move on ;)

Frides
 
PeteByrdie said:
Is there any evidence of a continuous religious tradition running through the activities of those people considered witches in medieval history?
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Sure. European archaeology is littered with the symbology of the Earth Mother and the Horned God from the ancient world up until the present day. Even during the height of the witch panic the upper classes were still depicting the old gods on maps and documents. Many of the traditions went heavily underground, and some are now pretty vestigial, but if you know what you are looking at. Much is hidden in plain sight, but I have seldom if ever seen even conspiracy theorists clue into it as it is often too subtle. After all, what would you say if I told you that hidden pantheists actually suborned christian symbols, especially the tales of saints, to hide their messages? I have also heard that the language of plants can hold surprises in old gardens, but I'm not as good at deciphering it. I mean, consider a flower bed being used as a form of written language. Apart from the old "parsley, sage, rosemary and thyme", sort of folklore, you really only need about 46 flowers to cover the entire alphabet, numbers, and punctuation marks.

Now I know people have made a point of debunking Gardnerian wicca's claims to antiquity, but I think there is secretly a need by those people to believe that such things are in the past and have been done away with. I even know of people whose families only did the Camino in order to pray at the Celtic holy places, and had been doing so for generations.

The entire situation has a lot of similarity to the symbols used by the LGBT community to identify each other for centuries against a hostile society, or national resistance movements, or organized crime, or craft guilds, etc. Another fine example is the survival of crypto-Judaism in the most unusual places. Oppression is hardly ever the end of the story.
 
That's interesting. For context, my fiancee was a wiccan years ago and now identifies as a pagan. I regard ours a pagan household. Although I'm not religious nor especially spiritual, I am interested in science and natural history, and celebrating astronomically significant times, equinoxes and solstices, and respecting nature makes sense to me, so it all works out.

Now I recognise the theories of the shared origins and meanings of ancient pantheistic traditions, and I see how they've been used by modern pagans, and I'm fine with that. But, beyond vague theories, I haven't been directed to any actual evidence that there was a surviving 'pagan' religion through the middle ages in Europe. There were of course magical treatises which seemed much of their time, and contained much Christian mysticism, but little that could be termed a religion. Main stream medicine of the time was based on humours, the four classical elements and astrology, and seems like a magic system to modern eyes, but it was a part of the Christian culture of the time. Those practices described as witchcraft at the time seem to be based on the paranoid fears of Christians. Of course, there were people who carried folk knowledge through the generations, about herbs, midwifery, even charms against spirit, but none of it could be inarguably classed as religion. So I've always been doubtful that any actual religious practices were passed by actual worshippers from ancient times, much less that any horned god/earth goddess cult has survived not only monotheism but also the pantheons of previous peoples, which were not themselves very similar to paganism as it stands today.
 
I'm also not sure that being a witch was solely a religious undertaking. As some of the history of the word "witch" indicates, it also connotes "wise".
The monotheist religions did overtake pagan religions by using pagan symbols. It is not by accident that Xmas falls near the winter solstice, nor that Easter is celebrated in spring. This was done I think to make it more palatable to pagans.
 
PeteByrdie said:
There were of course magical treatises which seemed much of their time, and contained much Christian mysticism, but little that could be termed a religion. Main stream medicine of the time was based on humours, the four classical elements and astrology, and seems like a magic system to modern eyes, but it was a part of the Christian culture of the time.
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A lot of so-called Christian mysticism is actually straight up pantheism too. The humors derive from Alcmaeon of Croton (about 500BC) but come down to us thru Hypocrates. The 4 elements derive from Babylon in around 1700BC. Astrology and horoscopes (in particular) are from about 2000BC. To say they are Christian isn't correct at all. Christianity really couldn't make up its mind about astrology, sometimes suppressing it, and sometimes adopting it. Calvinism in particular endorsed astrology, as it supported the notion of predestination and the omniscience of the deity and his "coelestial plan" (sic). The elements and the humors hung around in medicine even into the early 20th century in places. To say that they were part of the "Christian" culture neglects the fact that they were also part of Islamic and Indian culture thru the medieval period too.

PeteByrdie said:
Those practices described as witchcraft at the time seem to be based on the paranoid fears of Christians. Of course, there were people who carried folk knowledge through the generations, about herbs, midwifery, even charms against spirit, but none of it could be inarguably classed as religion.
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Actually, that really depends on how you define a religion, and anthropologically speaking, that is a very wide net. Even in terms of religious studies it is a very wide net, tho smaller than anthropology's. For example, Iceland's belief in the huldu folk is very widespread, and while there is no "worship" of the huldu, there is a deep folkloric tradition of leaving certain places undisturbed to respect their "invisible" neighbors. In short, you don't need to have gods to have a religion.

PeteByrdie said:
So I've always been doubtful that any actual religious practices were passed by actual worshippers from ancient times, much less that any horned god/earth goddess cult has survived not only monotheism but also the pantheons of previous peoples, which were not themselves very similar to paganism as it stands today.
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Well, the horned God survives in Christianity as the Devil, and the Earth Mother as Mary, Mother of God. It is hardly even well hidden.
 
AlchoPwn said:
A lot of so-called Christian mysticism is actually straight up pantheism too. The humors derive from Alcmaeon of Croton (about 500BC) but come down to us thru Hypocrates. The 4 elements derive from Babylon in around 1700BC. Astrology and horoscopes (in particular) are from about 2000BC. To say they are Christian isn't correct at all. Christianity really couldn't make up its mind about astrology, sometimes suppressing it, and sometimes adopting it. Calvinism in particular endorsed astrology, as it supported the notion of predestination and the omniscience of the deity and his "coelestial plan" (sic). The elements and the humors hung around in medicine even into the early 20th century in places. To say that they were part of the "Christian" culture neglects the fact that they were also part of Islamic and Indian culture thru the medieval period too.
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Sorry, I didn't mean to imply those things were inherently Christian, only that the culture of Europe was predominantly Christian and those things were a part of that culture, and that, while they were rooted in ancient cultures, they were not handed down as part of any religion specifically.

AlchoPwn said:
Actually, that really depends on how you define a religion, and anthropologically speaking, that is a very wide net. Even in terms of religious studies it is a very wide net, tho smaller than anthropology's. For example, Iceland's belief in the huldu folk is very widespread, and while there is no "worship" of the huldu, there is a deep folkloric tradition of leaving certain places undisturbed to respect their "invisible" neighbors. In short, you don't need to have gods to have a religion.
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Yes, the lines between religion, folk knowledge and superstition are certainly are smudgy, no doubt. But I don't think anybody would imply that hanging a horseshoe above ones door was part of an ancient religion. Academically, the lines are blurred, but most of us would recognise some things as part of a religion, and others as part of a body of superstitions.

AlchoPwn said:
Well, the horned God survives in Christianity as the Devil, and the Earth Mother as Mary, Mother of God. It is hardly even well hidden.
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Those images survive, have been subsumed even. But they haven't been passed on by a continuous system of belief passed through generations outside of Christianity. I still suspect that we wouldn't have those images in modern paganism had Christianity not preserved them, and I still suspect that modern paganism has little direct evidence backing its claim to be anything other than a collection of ideas cobbled together by academics from clues in superstition and the writings of ancients. This is not to say paganism isn't as worthy of any other faith; worthier than most in my opinion.
 
PeteByrdie said:
That's interesting. For context, my fiancee was a wiccan years ago and now identifies as a pagan. I regard ours a pagan household. Although I'm not religious nor especially spiritual, I am interested in science and natural history, and celebrating astronomically significant times, equinoxes and solstices, and respecting nature makes sense to me, so it all works out.

Now I recognise the theories of the shared origins and meanings of ancient pantheistic traditions, and I see how they've been used by modern pagans, and I'm fine with that. But, beyond vague theories, I haven't been directed to any actual evidence that there was a surviving 'pagan' religion through the middle ages in Europe. There were of course magical treatises which seemed much of their time, and contained much Christian mysticism, but little that could be termed a religion. Main stream medicine of the time was based on humours, the four classical elements and astrology, and seems like a magic system to modern eyes, but it was a part of the Christian culture of the time. Those practices described as witchcraft at the time seem to be based on the paranoid fears of Christians. Of course, there were people who carried folk knowledge through the generations, about herbs, midwifery, even charms against spirit, but none of it could be inarguably classed as religion. So I've always been doubtful that any actual religious practices were passed by actual worshippers from ancient times, much less that any horned god/earth goddess cult has survived not only monotheism but also the pantheons of previous peoples, which were not themselves very similar to paganism as it stands today.
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Britain in former times was subjected to invasions from both north and south by Vikings, various European factions and of course the Roman Empire, who all brought their religions and beliefs with them. The Roman armies included people from all over Europe and further afield with their own cultures.

It's all a big mishmash, and a good thing too.
 
PeteByrdie said:
I still suspect that modern paganism has little direct evidence backing its claim to be anything other than a collection of ideas cobbled together by academics from clues in superstition and the writings of ancients.
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I too think this, though the only pagan religion that I've partly studied is Wicca.
 
Some images that I'⅝(?vme across and thought were wonderful...

Quiet Sunday mornin' and having a digital, 'spring clean'!

So, what to do with this small collection - always inteded to be shared...

Noted they were all saved in a folder named, 'Witchy Images'!

Thus comfortable this is their home, I hope maybe one or more some images that I came across and thought were wonderful.

Quiet Sunday mornin' and having a digital, 'spring clean'!

So, what to do with this small collection - always intended to be shared...

Noted that they were all saved in a folder named, 'Witchy Images'!

Thus comfortable this is their home, I hope maybe one or more might resonate...

First three of thirteen...

resonate...

First three of thirteen...
 
2019526_111312412_compress22.jpg


2019526_111056349_compress59.jpg


2019526_11328694_compress34.jpg
 
brownmane said:
The one in red looks like it belongs on a tarot deck :)
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Indeed, IX The Hermit would be proud...

I love that there were posts of witches in all their splendor - and in triple number... But not all witches are as youthful or as 'generically beautiful'. There are crones. There are maidens. There are pregnant women. The Goddess, in all Her glory, is more than just 'beautiful' or 'gothic'.
 
:welc:
Agreed. Pop culture is a poor mimic. Classical depictions of Hecate are often the blueprint for such limited imagination.
hecateb.jpg

Get inside indigenous lifeways to see real world Craftswomen and men. Look to Africa, South America, Australia, Russia, Thailand, Korea, Polynesia etc and there the ongoing living tradition is open for all to see. The western hermetic tradition is no less authentic, but the disney imagery only serves to occult the reality and diminish the form into realms of taboo and mockery. Thankfully, the west is slowly starting to grow out of that.
 
New interactive map shows where women accused of witchcraft lived in the north and north-east

A rumbling noise could be heard coming from the direction of Janet Wishart’s home.

The cause is unknown but with a sickly fisherman lying a matter of streets away – unable to work for a month and surely under the influence of a dire spell – it was enough to convince the superstitious residents of Aberdeen of her commitment to the dark arts.

And in 1596, as trials took place across the north and north-east of Scotland amidst the height of the witch craze, she was convicted of 18 counts of witchcraft.

She and her son, Thomas Levis, who was accused of sorcery, were both “strangled and burnt”, according to the city archives.

Mrs Wishart’s story and dreadful fate are among those told through a new interactive map created by researchers at Edinburgh University, which tracks the history of more than 3,000 Scottish women who were accused of being witches in the 16th and 17th century and includes much data published for the first time.
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(C) The Press & Journal. '19.
 
Would you have stood up to a witch-hunt? In 1597, a Glasgow woman called Marion Walker did just that, taking on the most powerful and vengeful men in the land.

Marion Walker used the methods of the modern day whistleblower. She obtained, copied and leaked documents. She wanted the guilty held to account for the horrors of the Glasgow witch-hunt, a shocking miscarriage of justice even by the standards of the day.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-50330147
 
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