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Doctor Who [Spoilers]

I don't know what you believe to be the populist view of the Crusades.
But I do know that they were Christendom's belated, brutal and bloodthirsty response to militant Islamic's brutal and bloodthirsty military expansionism. So had there been no Islamic imperialism, there would have been no Crusades.
Bonekickers, with its crass Muslims= good, Christians=bad ethos, presented a perverted and vaguely sinister twist on history to make political points disguised as entertainment.
This was another example of the sort of BBC manipulation Yith referred to in the What's Up At the BBC thread.
At least we can both agree that Bonekickers was a dreadful show.
 
But I do know that they were Christendom's belated, brutal and bloodthirsty response to militant Islamic's brutal and bloodthirsty military expansionism. So had there been no Islamic imperialism, there would have been no Crusades.

exactly - nuanced - no side is "better" or "worse". The popular view, from listening at the library, church, volunteering etc is that it's Christians good and Muslims bad. No shades of grey.
 
A random half-prediction for Sunday: Sacha Darwan's Master to regenerate into John Simm.

OK, almost certainly not, but I've been trying to work out where this iteration of the Master fits into what we know of his history.

Heck, with CGI, he will probably turn into Roger Delgado...
 
A random half-prediction for Sunday: Sacha Darwan's Master to regenerate into John Simm.

OK, almost certainly not, but I've been trying to work out where this iteration of the Master fits into what we know of his history.

Heck, with CGI, he will probably turn into Roger Delgado...
Hey if we’re going for predictions Jodie Whitaker to regenerate.
 
A random half-prediction for Sunday: Sacha Darwan's Master to regenerate into John Simm...
D'oh!
I mean Derek Jacobi, of course.

It strikes me that this weekend's episode has quite a lot of stuff to cram in - the Master, Jo Martin's Doctor, Brendan, the Cybermen, the Timeless Child (who may well be one of the aforementioned) and possibly Captain Jack.

Just how long is it again?
 
D'oh!
I mean Derek Jacobi, of course.

It strikes me that this weekend's episode has quite a lot of stuff to cram in - the Master, Jo Martin's Doctor, Brendan, the Cybermen, the Timeless Child (who may well be one of the aforementioned) and possibly Captain Jack.

Just how long is it again?
One hour and ten minutes and why does it need to tie everything up neatly this season?
 
Because we probably won't see another series for 18 months, and I'm not very patient!

Anyway, I'm not demanding that it's all tied up neatly, but I'd expect most of the characters I listed to be at least mentioned this weekend.
 
Because we probably won't see another series for 18 months, and I'm not very patient!

Anyway, I'm not demanding that it's all tied up neatly, but I'd expect most of the characters I listed to be at least mentioned this weekend.

It's OK, it's back at Christmas and the next series starts in around a year.
 
OK, who else laughed out loud when they saw those Brain of Morbius faces?! Obviously a sticking point for over forty years! Must admit, I thought she was a goner, but O me of little faith. That's a better explanation for how the Doc has over 12 regenerations than the one Moffat dreamt up, and it provides a nice mystery too. Top insanity acting from Sacha, even if the Cyber Time Lords were a bit throwaway.

Now we know why Mandip Gill said she didn't know if she would be back when asked in that interview. Next up: Revolution of the Daleks... I've really enjoyed this series.
 
I noticed that. They appear to be trying to clear up all the loose ends from Classic Who as well. It's the Cartmel Masterplan all over again.
 
OK, who else laughed out loud when they saw those Brain of Morbius faces?! Obviously a sticking point for over forty years! Must admit, I thought she was a goner, but O me of little faith. That's a better explanation for how the Doc has over 12 regenerations than the one Moffat dreamt up, and it provides a nice mystery too. Top insanity acting from Sacha, even if the Cyber Time Lords were a bit throwaway.

Now we know why Mandip Gill said she didn't know if she would be back when asked in that interview. Next up: Revolution of the Daleks... I've really enjoyed this series.

Yes. A great hat-tip to the classic Tom Baker story.
Thought Sasha Dhawan's maniacal Master stole the show.
 
Just watched it and... hmmmmm....

I have no real issue with fiddling with canon, but this just all felt a bit contrived, and rather more than that, illogical.
Why would the Master be quite so enraged...? I get that he's a mad villain (and by "mad" I mean, way overacted. Missy was rather better), but the way it was shown didn't really make much sense.

It would have been far more interesting having it be the Master who was the Timeless child, thus better explaining his rage at being experimented on for eons, and adding a layer of guilt to the Doctor for being part of the race that was responsible, as well as knowing that she was part Master.
 
"having it be the Master who was the Timeless child "

I was thinking the same, but remember that the Master has only regenerated half a dozen or so times, as opposed to The Doctor's 13 or 14, so I suppose they needed to explain how The Doc could beat the 12 and you're out limit.
 
But The Master had reached his 12th regeneration in The Deadly Assassin, which was why he was decaying so badly. Since then he's used Masterly magic to appropriate other's living bodies. Not that I have an issue with the Doc beating the 12 rule, it was always an arbitrary number anyway.
 
Nice to see the FT letter reassuring us that just because The Master had an entire run of the mag, it didn't mean the mag was for baddies, it was because the mag is for goodies and The Master was fooling the Doc by possessing such a publication. Personally, I'm relieved.
Glad to be of service
 
But The Master had reached his 12th regeneration in The Deadly Assassin, which was why he was decaying so badly. Since then he's used Masterly magic to appropriate other's living bodies. Not that I have an issue with the Doc beating the 12 rule, it was always an arbitrary number anyway.

I think he was given an extra cycle of regenerations as part of a deal to fight in the Time War wasn't he?
 
The more I think about it, the more illogical and irritating it becomes*.

In trying to tie up loose ends, they've just created another issue; two hearts.
If the Doctor is a different species, then why do they have the same two hearts as the Gallifreyans...?

Basically, Chibnall has just created nothing more than a somewhat dark superhero origin story.
An orphan, with powers beyond the like of which their adopted world has never seen...? SuperWho, anyone...?

It's annoying, because up until the final episode, I'd rather enjoyed this series (season if you talk American).

*I'm aware I'm getting annoyed by a kids TV show, and probably just need a morning coffee.
 
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The more I think about it, the more illogical and irritating it become*.

In trying to tie up loose ends, they've just created another issue; two hearts.
If the Doctor is a different species, then why do they have the same two hearts as the Gallifreyans...?

I believe that his biology was altered when they wiped his memories. After all, if they were trying to hide his existence, it makes total sense that they would want him to be biologically the same as everyone else on Gallifrey and not attract attention.
 
I believe that his biology was altered when they wiped his memories. After all, if they were trying to hide his existence, it makes total sense that they would want him to be biologically the same as everyone else on Gallifrey and not attract attention.

Okay, I realise that I'm thinking *way* too deeply on this, but how would that survive a regeneration...? 10 made a specific point about new teeth.
 
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Okay, I realise that I'm thinking *way* too deeply on this, but how would that survive a regeneration...? 10 made a specific point about out about new teeth.

What I meant was that they would alter his genes to make him indistinguishable from any other Gallifreyan. So, when the Hartnell Doctor is born (or loomed) he would be biologically exactly the same as any other Time Lord: 12 generations and a Gallifreyan body.

I'm not 100% sure I'm explaining myself properly here, but hopefully that makes sense. If not, I'll come back to this thread when my poor old brain is less tired
 
They showed the scientist woman listening to the timeless child's heart with a stethoscope. My guess is they had one heart, untill they spliced themselves with timeless child DNA.
 
They showed the scientist woman listening to the timeless child's heart with a stethoscope. My guess is they had one heart, untill they spliced themselves with timeless child DNA.

Yes, I'm guessing that the Gallifreyans became like the Timeless Child, not the other way around. This is partly why the Master seems so annoyed, he now knows he is part "Doctor".
 
Just watched it and... hmmmmm....

I have no real issue with fiddling with canon, but this just all felt a bit contrived, and rather more than that, illogical.
Why would the Master be quite so enraged...? I get that he's a mad villain (and by "mad" I mean, way overacted. Missy was rather better), but the way it was shown didn't really make much sense.

It would have been far more interesting having it be the Master who was the Timeless child, thus better explaining his rage at being experimented on for eons, and adding a layer of guilt to the Doctor for being part of the race that was responsible, as well as knowing that she was part Master.

Right up until the reveal Me and Mrs Ident were speculating the same thing. It just seems a bit vague that The Master would commit an act of whole species genocide based on the assumption that he was a bit pissed off over The Doctor having shaped his people and society. The motivation isn't quite right. It's iffy.

Personally, I think that The Master as the Timeless Child would have been the stronger play for the story, with the Doctor realising that the only way she could stop him was to literally snub out every last trace of her own people.

But I'm also aware that this was not just about a single story. It was about embracing some of the abandoned masterplan for the series which was jettisoned back with the cancellation of the show at the end of the 80s. A plan which was intended to restore some greater sense of mystery to The Doctor as a character.

It's been done in a bit of chaotic and messy way, with plotholes aplenty to explain away, but from an ongoing story POV one of The Doctor's greatest strengths is that regardless of where they are, and when, they have an implacable sense of self. Their past, their character, their moral fibre. The belief that they are a force for good in the universe. And that any race which feels otherwise does so purely because The Doctor stopped them doing something that they wanted, which would have had horrible consequences.

The hidden memories of The Division somewhat changes that. It seeds doubt in The Doctor. The realisation that there are potentially many lives which The Doctor not only doesn't remember but in which they may not have behaved quite so altruistically. Certainly badly enough to be labeled a fugitive. That genuinely they might have interfered unjustly in the lives of others. Something which has the potential to seriously mess with The Doctor's sense of values.

That's a very interesting notion. I just don't feel that it's been delivered as well as perhaps it could have been.


The more I think about it, the more illogical and irritating it becomes*.

In trying to tie up loose ends, they've just created another issue; two hearts.
If the Doctor is a different species, then why do they have the same two hearts as the Gallifreyans...?

Basically, Chibnall has just created nothing more than a somewhat dark superhero origin story.
An orphan, with powers beyond the like of which their adopted world has never seen...? SuperWho, anyone...?

It's annoying, because up until the final episode, I'd rather enjoyed this series (season if you talk American).

*I'm aware I'm getting annoyed by a kids TV show, and probably just need a morning coffee.

They showed the scientist woman listening to the timeless child's heart with a stethoscope. My guess is they had one heart, untill they spliced themselves with timeless child DNA.


That's the most viable option for an explanation that I can think of. As to whether that will ever be made plain to viewers, I guess we'll wait and see. But it's not the only loose end created here.

For one, from the recent-ish past, there's the issue of Clara. Clara supposedly saw and interacted with the entirety of the Doctor's timeline. How come she never saw the parts with The Division?

Where does the Fugitive version of The Doctor fit in chronologically? Because you would assume from the way it has been shown to us so far that The Division happened pre-first Doctor. But the Fugitive Doctor's buried Tardis is a police box. Presumably because of the legendary 'stuck chameleon circuit'. Which happened after the Hartnell era Doctor stole it from Gallifrey. So where does this fit?

Then there's The Master's past incarnation as Missy. She talked about her and the Doctor running around as Children. That now seems pretty unlikely. The timelines don't quite tally.

So, yes. Contradictions aplenty. I do think that going forward this could introduce some very interesting possibilities. But it's all a bit messy, nonetheless.
 
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