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Re Yith's post #44:

George Melly's comments are interesting because his own autobiographical writing is noteworthy for his apparently unabashed candidness about himself. One reviewer said something along the lines that Melly appeared incapable of telling a lie, even if the truth put him in an awkward position. He may of course have been self-editing to make himself appear nicer than he was, but I don't think that was part of his character - I think it's more likely that he was truly bemused by Williams' bitterness, and relentlessly peripatetic acerbity.

I believe Williams displayed a character trait which is not really that uncommon - I think of it as 'the last five minutes' theory of human nature. Most of us possess attitudes to elements in our lives based on an averaging of our cumulative experience of them - but some people can only view them under the lens of their most recent experience. I believe that this is at least part of Williams' very complex nature, and the reason he appears to contradict himself so often when speaking of others.

Another name drop. Through work I used to know Williams' legatee - his friend and neighbour, and the chap who sold the diaries to the British Library. It was years before I realised it was he who had inherited Williams' estate. Always seemed a nice chap - very funny, and camp, but in a sort of old-school military way (which I've always suspected might be the origin of the word 'camp' in the first place).
 
I reckon he saw what was
Re Yith's post #44:

George Melly's comments are interesting because his own autobiographical writing is noteworthy for his apparently unabashed candidness about himself. One reviewer said something along the lines that Melly appeared incapable of telling a lie, even if the truth put him in an awkward position. He may of course have been self-editing to make himself appear nicer than he was, but I don't think that was part of his character - I think it's more likely that he was truly bemused by Williams' bitterness, and relentlessly peripatetic acerbity.

I believe Williams displayed a character trait which is not really that uncommon - I think of it as 'the last five minutes' theory of human nature. Most of us possess attitudes to elements in our lives based on an averaging of our cumulative experience of them - but some people can only view them under the lens of their most recent experience. I believe that this is at least part of Williams' very complex nature, and the reason he appears to contradict himself so often when speaking of others.

Another name drop. Through work I used to know Williams' legatee - his friend and neighbour, and the chap who sold the diaries to the British Library. It was years before I realised it was he who had inherited Williams' estate. Always seemed a nice chap - very funny, and camp, but in a sort of old-school military way (which I've always suspected might be the origin of the word 'camp' in the first place).

Sorry, what do you mean by camp in a "military way"?
 
Re Yith's post #44:

George Melly's comments are interesting because his own autobiographical writing is noteworthy for his apparently unabashed candidness about himself. One reviewer said something along the lines that Melly appeared incapable of telling a lie, even if the truth put him in an awkward position. He may of course have been self-editing to make himself appear nicer than he was, but I don't think that was part of his character - I think it's more likely that he was truly bemused by Williams' bitterness, and relentlessly peripatetic acerbity.

I believe Williams displayed a character trait which is not really that uncommon - I think of it as 'the last five minutes' theory of human nature. Most of us possess attitudes to elements in our lives based on an averaging of our cumulative experience of them - but some people can only view them under the lens of their most recent experience. I believe that this is at least part of Williams' very complex nature, and the reason he appears to contradict himself so often when speaking of others.

Another name drop. Through work I used to know Williams' legatee - his friend and neighbour, and the chap who sold the diaries to the British Library. It was years before I realised it was he who had inherited Williams' estate. Always seemed a nice chap - very funny, and camp, but in a sort of old-school military way (which I've always suspected might be the origin of the word 'camp' in the first place).
Ah now the "five minute theory" I'd never heard of, but I've known characters with such a trait. It explains behaviours which I have always failed to understand. I can now categorize appropriately. Definitely a light bulb moment for me SD.
 
...Sorry, what do you mean by camp in a "military way"?

Kind of hard to describe without an example.

'Camp' like so many things, represents a spectrum rather than a single thing. I suspect that most people who, when they think of It Ain't Half Hot, Mum and the word 'camp', will immediately associate it with Melvin Hayes character - however, to a certain generation of gay men, Windsor Davies' outwardly bluff and macho sergeant major might also be described as camp, and I think Croft and Perry knew exactly that when they set the two characters at odds with each other. It may be a generational thing, and I suspect the type I am trying to describe has largely been absorbed into 'Bear' culture. (It's also worth pointing out that 'camp' and 'homosexual' are not exclusively synonymous.)

I'm not gay, by the way - but my mum and dad's most loyal and generous friends were a gay couple from London - and through them and their friends, the family was kind of adopted into thaat culture in a way which was probably quite rare for a 70's family with working class roots. Many of the people I met were much more Sergeant Major Williams than they were Bombadier Gloria Beaumont.
 
Kind of hard to describe without an example.

'Camp' like so many things, represents a spectrum rather than a single thing. I suspect that most people who, when they think of It Ain't Half Hot, Mum and the word 'camp', will immediately associate it with Melvin Hayes character - however, to a certain generation of gay men, Windsor Davies' outwardly bluff and macho sergeant major might also be described as camp, and I think Croft and Perry knew exactly that when they set the two characters at odds with each other. It may be a generational thing, and I suspect the type I am trying to describe has largely been absorbed into 'Bear' culture. (It's also worth pointing out that 'camp' and 'homosexual' are not exclusively synonymous.)

I'm not gay, by the way - but my mum and dad's most loyal and generous friends were a gay couple from London - and through them and their friends, the family was kind of adopted into thaat culture in a way which was probably quite rare for a 70's family with working class roots. Many of the people I met were much more Sergeant Major Williams than they were Bombadier Gloria Beaumont.

So the guy you were referring to was more like Windsor Davies? Which is what most people might refer to as "macho" or something akin to that. I'm broadly familiar with the programme and have vague memories of it.
 
So the guy you were referring to was more like Windsor Davies? Which is what most people might refer to as "macho" or something akin to that. I'm broadly familiar with the programme and have vague memories of it.

Macho but preening and theatric.

And he was the senior NCO in an entertainment camp, not charging Japs in the jungle.
 
So the guy you were referring to was more like Windsor Davies? Which is what most people might refer to as "macho" or something akin to that. I'm broadly familiar with the programme and have vague memories of it.

Precisely. (Not exactly like, but 'more like' - as you say.)

With regard to the possible military origins of the word ‘camp’. There’s a theory that the usage may be based in the exclusively male environment of colonial encampments and that when entirely deprived of female contact supposedly feminine traits within men can grow, almost as if to compensate. It’s not exclusively associated with homosexuality, but with what might be seen by some as feminine attributes. The bluff, shouty machismo associated with military behaviour might in some cases also be viewed as camp – not only in a ‘doth protest too much’ kind of way, but because it is also often accompanied by a sort of arch knowingness about what was going on.

That theory may be out of fashion, and I'm aware of the hazards of commenting on what some might see as not my territory. But I've always found it not unconvincing.
 
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Mmmmm....'chicory'.
I can remember when I was a nipper, and my parents used to take us on holiday in their converted ambulance to places like the Isle of Wight, in the box of groceries for the trip we would have a bottle of 'camp coffee' which I'm sure I drank some at some point.

1589532887327.png
 
Oh and BTW, my dad worked in films and TV all through the 60s 70s and 80s.
Worked on many 'Carry On' films. Worked on 'It aint half hot mum' and 'Never the Twain'.
He knew most of the actors to speak to on and off set, and actually had quite an 'at work' friendship with Windsor Davies for some years (I believe they had a connection anyway from serving in the military in similar areas or something).
 
Mmmmm....'chicory'.
I can remember when I was a nipper, and my parents used to take us on holiday in their converted ambulance to places like the Isle of Wight, in the box of groceries for the trip we would have a bottle of 'camp coffee' which I'm sure I drank some at some point...

My grandad had a taste for Camp Coffee, which I always though foul stuff - but I think he developed a thing for chicory essence when he was in the army.

I remember, as a wee crumbsnatcher, looking up at the bottle and wondering what the hell that octopus thingy was, staring at me balefully with his single eye from depths of the Highlanders crotch!

(I wonder if that's where Lovecraft got his ideas from).
 
Mmmmm....'chicory'.
I can remember when I was a nipper, and my parents used to take us on holiday in their converted ambulance to places like the Isle of Wight, in the box of groceries for the trip we would have a bottle of 'camp coffee' which I'm sure I drank some at some point.

View attachment 26258
That's a very interesting addition to the recent posts in this thread, given that the seated soldier is supposed to represent Major-General Sir Hector McDonald. I dimly suspect he's graced these boards before. From what I recall, there's a strong argument to be made that, had he been from a different background, his apparent homosexuality would not have been whipped into such a scandal that he ended up shooting himself.
 
Many years ago I worked at Arbourfield Camp. (R.EM.E.) and one morning the following was pinned up on a notice board..

It has come to the attention of the C.O. that there has been an outbreak of faggotry in the ranks, this behavior will stop immediately.
This sort of behavior is strictly for commissioned officers only.

.
 
In hospitals I noticed a lot of campness. Some of the gay male staff could be very camp indeed but there were some wards where all the staff, both sexes, whatever their sexuality, were as camp as Christmas.

It rubs off so I'd come home, collapse theatrically in a chair and squeal 'I've had a MARE of a day, my dear! A MARE!' to a poor bemused Techy.
He soon mocked that out of me.
 
In hospitals I noticed a lot of campness. Some of the gay male staff could be very camp indeed but there were some wards where all the staff, both sexes, whatever their sexuality, were as camp as Christmas.

It rubs off so I'd come home, collapse theatrically in a chair and squeal 'I've had a MARE of a day, my dear! A MARE!' to a poor bemused Techy.
He soon mocked that out of me.
OHHH DUCKY
 
It's starting to sound as if a certain author has read the Sid James bio, picked up on the spooky epilogue and embellished it for one of his own books.

Unless any other sources are out there?

I did spent twenty or thirty minutes searching last night, but nothing looked very promising--there are a number of newspaper articles, but they're all rehashes of the biography with minor misleading exaggerations and--as you say--embellishments (for which there seems little evidence).

The first edition of the biography was 1995 and the version online was 'revised and updated' in 2001; none of the articles that has been put online is old enough to pre-date the first edition, but we don't know whether the supernatural epilogue featured in it. Slemen's book was not published until December 2013.

Which edition do you have @sdoig ?

This from 2009:

THEATRE STAGE AN OLD HAUNT FOR SID?

YESTERDAY marked the 30th anniversary of the passing of actor Sid James, who died suddenly while appearing at the Sunderland Empire Theatre. Sid exited the stage in a way he never would have expected.

However, as a fellow thespian remarked: "It was probably the way he would have wanted to go – doing what he loved best."
Sid may have left this life for whatever lies beyond, but there have been persistent rumours that he may not have fully left the theatre.
Last week I interviewed Melvyn James – a spooky coincidence with the surname there, perhaps – who was stage manager at the Empire then and now serves as technical manager.

What, I asked him, was the real truth behind the rumours that Sid’s ghost had been seen in the theatre since his untimely demise?
First Melvyn told me what really happened when Sid died, as distorted accounts have been bandied around in the Press ever since.
"Sid was at the side of stage chatting just as the curtain was about to go up.

"He looked fine. It was the opening night of The Mating Game and he introduced himself to everyone; not that he needed to – who could mistake Sid James?

"Anyway, I was in my office when the wardrobe mistress called and asked me to make my way up.
"There was something wrong with Sid. He’d slumped down on a sofa on the stage and then flopped back-over.


Serious


"I made my way onto the stage and as soon as I saw him I knew it was very serious.
"His lips were turning blue and his eyes had rolled back in his head."

Melvyn James made an appeal to the audience, shouting, "Is there a doctor in the house?"

Horribly, the crowd thought that this was simply a light-hearted diversion from the script and roared with laughter. Eventually a doctor did come forward and an ambulance was called, but it was too late.

Rumours persist that a number of celebrities have seen Sid’s ghost in what used to be his dressing room.

What about the tale that Les Dawson had bumped into the by then other-worldly Mr James?

"I’ve heard the stories," replies Melvyn. "But if Les did see anything, he never mentioned it when he was here.

"Maybe he related something later, but I saw him regularly and he never made any such claims."
And Barbara Windsor?

"It’s true that Barbara hasn’t appeared here since Sid’s death," said Melvyn. "But I really don’t know why."

"Perhaps Babs just can’t bear to work the same stage on which her good friend died."

The Les Dawson story may well have some substance to it.

Les was supposed to have seen Sid’s ghost at the Empire in 1989.

He didn’t die till 1993 and therefore had a number of years to scotch the story if it was untrue. He never did.

Contrary to a number of fanciful meanderings in the Press, Melvyn James doesn’t seem convinced that the Sunderland Empire is really haunted.
He doesn’t talk like a sceptic, mind you – more of an agnostic.

Maybe he’ll bump into Sid one day, who knows.

Next week I’ll tell you what happened when the theatre’s Press & marketing co-ordinator, Joanne Wilkins, took me on a tour of some of the theatre’s darkest recesses.

It’s a good job I had my camera with me... to be continued
.

Source
:
https://web.archive.org/web/2009011...s/CustomPage.aspx?PageID=58275&sectionID=6150
 
Kind of hard to describe without an example.

'Camp' like so many things, represents a spectrum rather than a single thing. I suspect that most people who, when they think of It Ain't Half Hot, Mum and the word 'camp', will immediately associate it with Melvin Hayes character - however, to a certain generation of gay men, Windsor Davies' outwardly bluff and macho sergeant major might also be described as camp, and I think Croft and Perry knew exactly that when they set the two characters at odds with each other. It may be a generational thing, and I suspect the type I am trying to describe has largely been absorbed into 'Bear' culture. (It's also worth pointing out that 'camp' and 'homosexual' are not exclusively synonymous.)

I'm not gay, by the way - but my mum and dad's most loyal and generous friends were a gay couple from London - and through them and their friends, the family was kind of adopted into thaat culture in a way which was probably quite rare for a 70's family with working class roots. Many of the people I met were much more Sergeant Major Williams than they were Bombadier Gloria Beaumont.

Interesting you say that. The past - especially the 50's - are represented as if homophobia was almost universal. But my Dad - and you can hardly imagine a type less likely to be tolerant of gay men - , boxer, wrestler, Royal Engineer, - was not hostile at all. He was of the opinion that 'whatever other people get up to in their private lives is fine as long as it doesn't frighten the horses' . And yet my little brother waited for Dad to die before he 'came out'.
 
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Going broader, this on the earlier tales of a haunting in the Sunderland Empire:

The theatre has its own exclusive ghost, Molly who was stage manager of a touring musical that visited the theatre in 1942. She went out to post a letter and has never been seen or heard of since. The case of the disappearance has never been solved but fingers have been pointed in various directions.ever since because it seems that our Molly had a very varied love life. Her Ghost can be seen in the theatre at postal collection times.

Source:
http://www.arthurlloyd.co.uk/MossEmpires.htm

Missing Miss Molly
By Paper Terry | 06/12/2018 | Mysteries
The mystery of Missing Miss Molly began on 14th January 1949 and still continues to this day. Mary Burslem was a dancer and entertainer who took the stage name Molly Moselle. She was 33 years old and working as a stage manageress for an Ivor Novello show called The Dancing Years. This was at the Sunderland Empire Theatre in the winter of 1949 and it was then when she disappeared.

Missing Miss Molly
She had left her digs telling her landlady she was going to post a letter and she never returned. As the rumours about her and what might have happened began, Sunderland detectives spoke to her fellow performers. They described Molly as a happy woman with a strong personality.

Missing Miss Molly - Molly Moselle - Mary Burslem


They also thought she had lost her memory and was somewhere safe in England. The police followed other suggestions such as suicide, murder or she had fallen into the river and drowned. They also made investigations in Liverpool where her family lived. Also in London and Sheffield where some of her boyfriends lived and at railway stations all over the country. Still they found nothing.

Molly had a long history of troubled relationships with men. But, for 16 years she devoted herself to a married man who was unable to get a divorce, a comedian called Bunny Doyle. In 1948 Bunny had deserted Molly for the principal boy in one of his pantomimes which left Molly feeling very bitter and hurt.

She turned to a rich fat man called Walter Hattersley who owned a top hotel in Sheffield. A few months later, Molly was telling her friends about the engagement between her and Walter. But she could not wear the £200 ring he had bought her as it was too valuable.

No Engagement
Unfortunately, Walter had never mentioned anything about an engagement. Indeed, he had already been married before and was old enough to be Molly’s father. A few stormy months later Walter found Molly drunk on his bedroom floor and ended the relationship. Molly then phoned Walter on 22nd November 1948. But he hung up on her and she started to sob “it’s all over”.

As the weeks passed, her friends knew that she was still unhappy. Then, on Friday 14th January 1949, she had a lunch time drink with an electrician from the show. Molly told him that she had written to Walter and received a letter from him that morning. Trying to hold back tears, she would not say what was in the letter.

After lunch Molly went shopping in Sunderland then returned to her digs in Eden Street, near the theatre. She then told her landlady she had forgotten to post a letter. She went out into the cold dark night and never returned. The disappearance of Molly soon hit the headlines, and Sunderland police had a flood of offers to help them find Molly.

As they scoured the country looking for her, calls came in from all over saying that people had seen her at various railway stations across the country. However, nothing was to come of any of the so called sightings.

Grisly Find
On the afternoon of Wednesday 12th October 1960, the police motor launch made a grisly find in the River Wear. As two police officers reached over to recover the body, an appalling smell hit them Then they realized that only the rotting torso and upper half of the leg remained. Police agreed that the body had been washed into the river by heavy rain. Indeed, floods were a possibility at the time.

The post mortem revealed it had been a woman between 25 and 50 years old and 5ft 3 inches tall. Indeed, she had been dead for a long time. Molly was 33 years old and 5ft 6 inches tall when she disappeared, could these remains have been Molly? A note from the inquest said the body could explain the disappearance of Molly, but proof would be impossible.

Moreover, inquires failed to find anyone else it could have been. They laid to rest the unidentified remains on Monday, 17th October 1960. So was that Molly’s remains or is she living out her life as a very happy healthy old woman**.

Finally
**At the time of writing this (2010), Molly would have been 94. Since we updated things in 2018, the hope of finding Missing Miss Molly are diminishing fast. Indeed, most people believe that Missing Miss Molly is dead and that her ghost haunts the Sunderland Empire Theatre. But what do you think?

Source [text copied in its entirety as site looks like it may not be there long-term]:
https://wearsideonline.com/missing-miss-molly/
 

I am wondering if Sid James (ghost or not) is a red herring here, inserted by subsequent authors to embellish a tale and connect two well-liked performers. Les may have indeed seen something/experienced something highly disturbing. It might be fruitful to track down any historical previous reports from the Sunderland Empire.
 
I was reading about Les and discovered he had written a novel called A Time Before Genesis - from the subject matter Les must have had Fortean interests


https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/surprising-literary-ventures-14-october-2006

It's set in Huddersfield where I live , would love to read it but it's over £100. It was featured in one of last years Fortean times too. Les was very into the Fortean.

I'd also like to hear the stories of the man who knew all the old northern club "turns" .
 
I am wondering if Sid James (ghost or not) is a red herring here, inserted by subsequent authors to embellish a tale and connect two well-liked performers. Les may have indeed seen something/experienced something highly disturbing. It might be fruitful to track down any historical previous reports from the Sunderland Empire.

What if Sid James saw the same thing as Les Dawson - and it scared him to death?
 
FT354 (June 2017) has an article on Les Dawson.

Could anybody here upload the article?
 
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