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Strange Deaths

There's an article on the Variety website about gun safety in European movies and television
In the U.K., the guidelines set out by the government’s Health and Safety at Work Act state that “the use of live ammunition is normally prohibited [on set] unless used under Home Office or Ministry of Defense regulations or under the privileges of the license or approval and permission from the police, eg. on a firing range.”

Christopher Deacon is a partner and international injury lawyer at U.K. law firm Stewarts, the firm that successfully acted on behalf of British stuntwoman Olivia Jackson after she sustained injuries while filming “Resident Evil: The Final Chapter” in South Africa.

Said Deacon: “If live firearms are being used, then it’s a requirement to have a registered firearms dealer or license holder present, and that reflects the regulatory requirements in the U.K. for possessing and using a firearm, regardless of the setting in which that’s being used.”

The U.K. has clear guidelines governing the use of firearms, whether real or replica, on set, with several publications available to film and TV crews. In and around London, where a lot of U.K. filming is concentrated, a police presence is usually required for scenes involving live or blank ammunition. The police and the local borough film service have to be provided with a full and comprehensive risk assessment.

Top armorer Richard Howell, from prop providers Foxtrot Production, says the safety situation in the U.K. has been getting “better and better” over the last 20-25 years driven largely by health and safety requirements implemented by broadcasters BBC and ITV across departments, including armory.

“It’s worked really well, because it made us prepare a lot better before we actually went on set,” Howell told Variety. “We had copies of the scripts to go through, we did a breakdown with the firearms, and you’d have an understanding of what the director was requesting. And then you actually write up your story, what the risks were — high, medium, low — and then you send them off. It’s gotten better and better over the years.”

Howell said restrictors or plugs in gun barrels are important to prevent accidents, as well as managing the camera angles so weapons aren’t pointing directly at the camera.

“Nobody ever, ever is in front of a firearm being fired; the cameras are set up to cheat the scene,” said Howell. “You set the whole thing up, and the camera’s just slightly off. It can certainly be remoted [activated by remote control] if there’s any perceived danger, and that’s certainly the decision of the armorer on set.”
https://variety.com/2021/film/news/rust-prop-gun-weapons-masters-europe-1235098549/
 
You have to remember that the laws and practices of what goes on with guns in the USA
have no resemblance to what we are used to in the UK.
:omr:
Absolutely. One could think of ten differences right away; hell, I could make ten up and they'd probably be true.

Here are some I've thought up off the cuff -

1. Most Americans have handled a gun - most Brits have not.
2. Off-duty American movie crews are inclined to entertain themselves with spontaneous target-shooting - almost no British ones do.
3. American guns on movie sets are habitually left around for people to borrow and play with and are not checked before use - access to guns on British movie sets is strictly controlled.
4.There is a small but significant statistical chance of being accidentally shot dead in most American work and social situations - almost zero chance in Britain.

etc
 
Absolutely. One could think of ten differences right away; hell, I could make ten up and they'd probably be true.

Here are some I've thought up off the cuff -

1. Most Americans have handled a gun - most Brits have not.
2. Off-duty American movie crews are inclined to entertain themselves with spontaneous target-shooting - almost no British ones do.
3. American guns on movie sets are habitually left around for people to borrow and play with and are not checked before use - access to guns on British movie sets is strictly controlled.
4.There is a small but significant statistical chance of being accidentally shot dead in most American work and social situations - almost zero chance in Britain.

etc

1. No. I'm damned if I can trace the stats, but only a small minority of Americans who join the armed services or police have ever even handled a firearm before they sign up.

2. That's an allegation based on as-yet-unsubstantiated stories about this incident.

3. No.

4. In the USA, if you're not involved in drugs and/or gangs, your chance of being involved in a shooting drop to near-European levels.

maximus otter
 
Friend of mine pulled up outside our house when I was in the garden,
Look at this, a bullet hole in is drivers door, it had gone through the
door passed maybe a inch over his legs and a few inches from is body
then out the other side,
He worked in Moss Side Manchester, he changed is job.


:omr:
 
Friend of mine pulled up outside our house when I was in the garden,
Look at this, a bullet hole in is drivers door, it had gone through the
door passed maybe a inch over his legs and a few inches from is body
then out the other side,
He worked in Moss Side Manchester, he changed is job.


:omr:
Did he notice at the time? Was he in the car?
Have to say that'd have me changing my job too. o_O

Although I did live in Moss Side for a while and had no trouble. This was the late '70s though so perhaps the place wasn't as tooled up.
 
As long as one doesn't automatically assume qualifications = expert. Practical experience should count as well.

This!!

I think a bigger problem generally, (in my work, anyway) is a bunch of managers with degrees thinking that makes them the expert. When, as a person with no formal post-secondary education, but 20 years doing the thing, they are not making smart (or even practical) decisions.

As a trainer, I've recently been told by managers that anyone can train anything, and no experience is needed (as long as the material is prepared well) ??

Dunning-Kruger is rampant in the middle managment in my field. And it seems, a lot of others these days.
 
Did he notice at the time? Was he in the car?
Have to say that'd have me changing my job too. o_O

Although I did live in Moss Side for a while and had no trouble. This was the late '70s though so perhaps the place wasn't as tooled up.
Who'd be foolish to attack you?

https---bucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com-public-images-fe5ed7f4...gif
 
Absolutely. One could think of ten differences right away; hell, I could make ten up and they'd probably be true.

Here are some I've thought up off the cuff -

1. Most Americans have handled a gun - most Brits have not.
According to my reading on the subject, there are more guns in America than there are people but, importantly, most people do not own a gun. Put simply, a large number of guns in a small number of hands.

Compared to European figures, and from an outsider's point of view, America's relationship with the gun may seem crazy. However, most Americans have no relationship with the gun.

For comparison/illustration: In the UK, the most likely weapon in a killing or serious injury is some form of knife despite certain types of knife being very tightly regulated or subject to outright bans. Pretty much every Briton other than very young children has access to sharp knives every day because knives are also tools. However, the number of attacks with knives is small compared to the population, and is largely concentrated in certain parts of the community, and in domestic incidents.
 
It only takes one bad decision to spin a problematic situation into a disaster.

My first guess would be that the baby fell ill and the parents lingered together trying to deal with the child until it was too late for either of them to go seek help (or potable water).
More random thoughts on the dead hiking family and dog. I think that what Enola Gaia suggested was the likely case. If it is true that only one water container was found with them…

“A sole container for water found with the family, an 85-ounce water bladder backpack, was empty.” John Gerrish, Ellen Chung died from hyperthermia while hiking in California, Mariposa County sheriff says - The Washington Post

…then that could help explain what happened. A single water bag means that everyone had to stay together because if they split up, somebody would have to be without the water.

(Side bar - I never go out hiking without my own water, light, communications, etc. that I carry on my own person. Even if inconvenient or likely not necessary. When my husband and I go out driving in the wilderness, our SUV has enough food and water (and emergency blankets and first aid and…) to last days. Gallons of water. Of course, if it is 110F, then the heat will likely kill us if I get lost in the middle of nowhere and the car breaks down/runs out of gas. Like what nearly happened to us 6 months ago. Stupidity WTF score: 2)

Also, if this family had not told someone where they were going to go hiking, and when they would be back, or if they had not written their plans on a piece of paper and put it under a windshield wiper on their vehicle (common in the US at trailheads), then this could help explain why it took so long to find them on an established trail. I had wondered why it took so long to find them.

The outdoors or wilderness is merciless. In the past month, 3 people died in separate incidents while on vacation here in central Arizona from heat and dehydration. All were from the east coast of the US, all were on public, well-marked trails. In September – October, the air temperatures can easily get over 105F. The ground temperatures can get and stay at over 140F. Here are the details of the three recent deaths, from what I could gather from news sources, as well as my own obnoxious WTF scores:

1. Dyer. Tonto forest trail. With companion on marked trail when he collapsed. She left him and left the only map they had with him in case he recovered (WTF) and then she got lost (WTF). Had cell phones but no reception in the wilderness area. Not in the Phoenix metro area. Apparently took no water with them. He died, she barely survived. WTF score: 2

2. Tramonte. Phoenix trail. Took no water (WTF). Decided to go off separately from companion while on hike (WTF). Told companion to continue without her to the top of the trail so they could take photos to post on social media. (WTF. No comment), had cell phone and reception but didn’t call (WTF). WTF score: 3

3. Miller. Scottsdale trail. Started hike at noon (WTF too hot). Didn’t know area, decided to go off separately from companion while on hike (WTF), had cell phone and reception but didn’t call (WTF). WTF score: 3

It only takes one bad decision to make a fatal error. All these people who died while hiking on public, marked trails made mistakes.

When I am out in the boonies, I always pay special attention to people who are wearing expensive, unscuffed gear. They are the ones who are proud and can’t ask for help or receive it. They are the ones who are composing narratives in their heads about how they will tell their friends how great their outing was. Rather than paying attention to their outing. Like the elderly couple in new expensive gear I ran across at sunset (dark) in autumn (cold and windy) as they started down a little used trail in the Grand Canyon. They looked at my scuffed up boots with hundreds of miles on them and said they would be fine. I told the ranger station about them and hope it worked out ok.

End of rant.
 
More random thoughts on the dead hiking family and dog. I think that what Enola Gaia suggested was the likely case. If it is true that only one water container was found with them…

“A sole container for water found with the family, an 85-ounce water bladder backpack, was empty.” John Gerrish, Ellen Chung died from hyperthermia while hiking in California, Mariposa County sheriff says - The Washington Post

…then that could help explain what happened. A single water bag means that everyone had to stay together because if they split up, somebody would have to be without the water.

(Side bar - I never go out hiking without my own water, light, communications, etc. that I carry on my own person. Even if inconvenient or likely not necessary. When my husband and I go out driving in the wilderness, our SUV has enough food and water (and emergency blankets and first aid and…) to last days. Gallons of water. Of course, if it is 110F, then the heat will likely kill us if I get lost in the middle of nowhere and the car breaks down/runs out of gas. Like what nearly happened to us 6 months ago. Stupidity WTF score: 2)

Also, if this family had not told someone where they were going to go hiking, and when they would be back, or if they had not written their plans on a piece of paper and put it under a windshield wiper on their vehicle (common in the US at trailheads), then this could help explain why it took so long to find them on an established trail. I had wondered why it took so long to find them.

The outdoors or wilderness is merciless. In the past month, 3 people died in separate incidents while on vacation here in central Arizona from heat and dehydration. All were from the east coast of the US, all were on public, well-marked trails. In September – October, the air temperatures can easily get over 105F. The ground temperatures can get and stay at over 140F. Here are the details of the three recent deaths, from what I could gather from news sources, as well as my own obnoxious WTF scores:

1. Dyer. Tonto forest trail. With companion on marked trail when he collapsed. She left him and left the only map they had with him in case he recovered (WTF) and then she got lost (WTF). Had cell phones but no reception in the wilderness area. Not in the Phoenix metro area. Apparently took no water with them. He died, she barely survived. WTF score: 2

2. Tramonte. Phoenix trail. Took no water (WTF). Decided to go off separately from companion while on hike (WTF). Told companion to continue without her to the top of the trail so they could take photos to post on social media. (WTF. No comment), had cell phone and reception but didn’t call (WTF). WTF score: 3

3. Miller. Scottsdale trail. Started hike at noon (WTF too hot). Didn’t know area, decided to go off separately from companion while on hike (WTF), had cell phone and reception but didn’t call (WTF). WTF score: 3

It only takes one bad decision to make a fatal error. All these people who died while hiking on public, marked trails made mistakes.

When I am out in the boonies, I always pay special attention to people who are wearing expensive, unscuffed gear. They are the ones who are proud and can’t ask for help or receive it. They are the ones who are composing narratives in their heads about how they will tell their friends how great their outing was. Rather than paying attention to their outing. Like the elderly couple in new expensive gear I ran across at sunset (dark) in autumn (cold and windy) as they started down a little used trail in the Grand Canyon. They looked at my scuffed up boots with hundreds of miles on them and said they would be fine. I told the ranger station about them and hope it worked out ok.

End of rant.
I don't even know what to say about the incidents you listed above.

What are these people doing? What do they think a cell phone is for, if not to use in an emergency. It's bad enough being in a place, having the phone but no reception. But having a live cell phone and never calling for help? BIG WTF!

A very recent incident where a hiker got lost and was overdue, and refused to answer calls from rescuers because it was an "unlisted" number! The hiker also didn't even bother to use their working phone to call and let friends know they weren't dead. WTF?

I'm conflicted. I feel bad for the individuals because of their ignorance of the dangers, and the probably horrible ends they came to as a result. But at a certain point, I just feel like if you are too stupid to use a phone to call for help, well, nature will make you pay for that stupidity/ignorance/arrogance.
 
I don't even know what to say about the incidents you listed above.

What are these people doing? What do they think a cell phone is for, if not to use in an emergency. It's bad enough being in a place, having the phone but no reception. But having a live cell phone and never calling for help? BIG WTF!

A very recent incident where a hiker got lost and was overdue, and refused to answer calls from rescuers because it was an "unlisted" number! The hiker also didn't even bother to use their working phone to call and let friends know they weren't dead. WTF?

I'm conflicted. I feel bad for the individuals because of their ignorance of the dangers, and the probably horrible ends they came to as a result. But at a certain point, I just feel like if you are too stupid to use a phone to call for help, well, nature will make you pay for that stupidity/ignorance/arrogance.
“What are these people doing?” I don’t know. I suspect that they are embarrassed about being lost or needing help, and so don’t use their phone to call for help, don’t answer their phone, etc. Also, pure conjecture on my part, but I suspect that some people have social circles (real life, social media, and perhaps just in their heads) in which they imagine themselves recounting their outdoor hikes and how great they were.

Admitting they were in over their heads would be an admission of failure many find impossible. I think social embarrassment is a huge force in society, and one underestimated. I have felt it myself – and I am a founding member of the North American chapter of Fuck Ups Anonymous and should certainly know better :)
 
This guy probably accounts for about a third of the total.

"Everything I have is legal in the state of Colorado"

I watch a programme with American comedian Rich Hall, he said that Colorado is the only state where you could drive a car, fire a gun and drink a beer at the same time.
“What are these people doing?” I don’t know. I suspect that they are embarrassed about being lost or needing help, and so don’t use their phone to call for help, don’t answer their phone, etc. Also, pure conjecture on my part, but I suspect that some people have social circles (real life, social media, and perhaps just in their heads) in which they imagine themselves recounting their outdoor hikes and how great they were.

Admitting they were in over their heads would be an admission of failure many find impossible. I think social embarrassment is a huge force in society, and one underestimated. I have felt it myself – and I am a founding member of the North American chapter of Fuck Ups Anonymous and should certainly know better :)
You would have thought, bearing death, would overcome any embarrassment factor
 
“What are these people doing?” I don’t know. I suspect that they are embarrassed about being lost or needing help, and so don’t use their phone to call for help, don’t answer their phone, etc. Also, pure conjecture on my part, but I suspect that some people have social circles (real life, social media, and perhaps just in their heads) in which they imagine themselves recounting their outdoor hikes and how great they were.

Admitting they were in over their heads would be an admission of failure many find impossible. I think social embarrassment is a huge force in society, and one underestimated. I have felt it myself – and I am a founding member of the North American chapter of Fuck Ups Anonymous and should certainly know better :)
I guess I have no shame! lol
As so, I'd never considered that you can die from embarrassment for real!

(edited words for clarity)
 
I was thinking about the Rust shooting, and recalled other dangerous weapons situations in films of the past.

In Akira Kurosawa's Throne of Blood, a.k.a. Spider Web Castle, Toshiro Mifune dodges huge volleys of arrows. The effect was supposedly done with forced perspective and the arrows fired far from the actor, but you can see him gesturing in the direction the archers should shoot to avoid him, so maybe not so far away.

Andrzej Wajda's A Generation featured several killings with a machine gun. Because the gun's mechanism relied on bullets in the cartridges to advance the belt, live ammo was used, with actors shooting into sandbags near the "victims". The film did use special effects as well, being perhaps the first to use blood-filled squibs.

As far as I know, no one was hurt on either film.
 
There's an article on the Variety website about gun safety in European movies and television

https://variety.com/2021/film/news/rust-prop-gun-weapons-masters-europe-1235098549/
Of course guidelines, regulations, and licences are meaningless if those using weapons are incompetent.

I watch a UK programme called Combat Dealers and am amazed how WW2 weapons and vehicles firing live ammo and mines etc are demonstrated to customers with (on the face of it) not a huge amount elf 'n safety going on. Might all be edited out of course and I'm not suggesting this bloke and his crew are not experts and up to it, but you can envisage how very easily an accident could happen. A restricted PAK 40 field gun was shown being derestricted simply by hammering out the plug welded into the barrel and then shown being fired with a blank. Still, a rather large explosion occurred on a gun which was 75 years old.

I knew someone who was in the re enactment hobby in the UK and the field gun he was operating firing blanks somehow back fired and blew his hand off and in the not too distant past 2 people in the US were killed in an explosion on their WW2 tank. Weapons and people don't really mix safely.
 
elf ‘n safety…Might all be edited out of course…

Yep.

Weapons and people don't really mix safely.

Yet for over half a century l have fired, or been in close proximity to the firing of, hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of cartridges by thousands of people, and have never seen so much as a cut finger.

maximus otter
 
I was thinking about the Rust shooting, and recalled other dangerous weapons situations in films of the past.

In Akira Kurosawa's Throne of Blood, a.k.a. Spider Web Castle, Toshiro Mifune dodges huge volleys of arrows. The effect was supposedly done with forced perspective and the arrows fired far from the actor, but you can see him gesturing in the direction the archers should shoot to avoid him, so maybe not so far away.

Andrzej Wajda's A Generation featured several killings with a machine gun. Because the gun's mechanism relied on bullets in the cartridges to advance the belt, live ammo was used, with actors shooting into sandbags near the "victims". The film did use special effects as well, being perhaps the first to use blood-filled squibs.

As far as I know, no one was hurt on either film.
An interview with the archer from Throne of Blood
 
I know that historically they called on people with experience rather than box ticking. I recall Churchill the firearms expert.

On the other hand not so long ago I attended a trial where the alleged IT 'expert' - about 25 - knew sod all. If they'd let me cross examine him I'd have reduced him to quivering jelly.
I can't remember who this happened to, (maybe MrsF), but there was the case where an IT bod was called out to an office to fix a computer that wasn't working but they couldn't determine the problem. After a good while someone else eventually realised that it wasn't plugged in.
 
I can't remember who this happened to, (maybe MrsF), but there was the case where an IT bod was called out to an office to fix a computer that wasn't working but they couldn't determine the problem. After a good while someone else eventually realised that it wasn't plugged in.
 
“What are these people doing?” I don’t know. I suspect that they are embarrassed about being lost or needing help, and so don’t use their phone to call for help, don’t answer their phone, etc. Also, pure conjecture on my part, but I suspect that some people have social circles (real life, social media, and perhaps just in their heads) in which they imagine themselves recounting their outdoor hikes and how great they were.

Admitting they were in over their heads would be an admission of failure many find impossible. I think social embarrassment is a huge force in society, and one underestimated. I have felt it myself – and I am a founding member of the North American chapter of Fuck Ups Anonymous and should certainly know better :)

Your British counterpart here, checking in - :salute:

What happens is that, as you'll know, untrained people who push it a bit with the survival activities don't know it's all going wrong until it's too late. They don't know when to turn back or ask for help.

Trained people can spot the pearshapedness right away and start a new plan.

I'm really good at this. Not specific wilderness survival procedures, but just knowing when I'm beaten. :wink2:
It's better to abandon an expedition and be sure of getting home safely than to soldier on and make things worse.

Had this a couple of years ago with a cycling trip up a Welsh mountain. Made the schoolgirl error of letting Techy assess the weather situation and talk me out of taking waterproofs. In Wales. :rolleyes:
 
I can't remember who this happened to, (maybe MrsF), but there was the case where an IT bod was called out to an office to fix a computer that wasn't working but they couldn't determine the problem. After a good while someone else eventually realised that it wasn't plugged in.
When I was at university in Hungary, early 2000s, there was no wireless or broadband and the few people who had laptops couldn't go online with them.*

The only computers available were all together in a huge hall and you got an hour at a time a day. So you could use one in the morning, then four hours later you could go back, and so on. There were never enough computers so you'd wander the hall looking for one that was free.

After your hour was up you could surreptitiously unplug the monitor then report it as faulty, knowing it wouldn't be seen to for at least a day.
Four hours later you could pop back, remove the OUT OF ORDER sign, replug and carry on.

Nobody noticed because they were all concentrating on their puny hour of uptime.

*Back in Blighty, my nephew started a degree around the same time and had access to broadband on a cable for a small fee in his on-campus accommodation. Techy provided a work-surplus PC and Nephew was MADE UP. :cool:

My son Escet was at Oxford and broadband there was free.
Well, it would be, wouldn't it. :wink2:
 
Quoting myself here, ooer -

It's better to abandon an expedition and be sure of getting home safely than to soldier on and make things worse.
Reminded myself about a Mount Everest expedition that was abandoned close to the summit for some reason like a sudden dangerous change in the weather.

My first thought had been 'What? They could SEE the summit but they turned back!' and then it was 'Great leadership and teamwork there, putting people's safety first.'

They knew they were beaten. But you're still not beaten if you KNOW you're beaten; a tactical withdrawal is sometimes good enough. :cool:
 
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