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The Loch Ness Monster

PeteByrdie said:
To some extent, I think we can hypothesise that pinnipeds probably live a similar lifestyle, allowing for the difficulties of knowing for sure what a long extinct organism's lifestyle was like. Personally, I've long thought the long neck of some plesiosaurs hint at something we've yet to figure out. When I was young, they were portrayed darting at fish with their heads on flexible necks. Now it seems those necks were less flexible than supposed, in which case I don't see the need for them. Indeed, the necks of many were much shorter than those commonly imagined.

Like you said; if the long necks were a hunting advantage, why haven't pinnipeds got them, and because pinnipeds haven't, what were those plesiosaurs doing that pinnipeds are not?

There may be excellent answers to these questions, and I'm writing this having made no attempt to find those answers, so perhaps I'll delve into it tomorrow.

EDIT: A quick dive into why some plesiosaurs had long necks has only shown how difficult this issue is. So I'm going to have a Friday night drink instead.
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Perhaps there’s a new thread to be had here? I was thinking “lost bodyforms” but it sounds like a 1960s corset ad so I’m sure there’s a better term.
I've seen various theories for different long necks feeding strategies and IIRC the Leopard Seal has a fairly long neck but looks nothing like the reconstructions of the longer necked marine reptiles but with the exception of the IIRC Elasmosaurs it seems they weren’t very flexible and nothing like the traditional Nessie/ Sea serpent neck out of water depiction.

For other forms the Mammals never seem to have developed the therapod bipedal carnivore form though arguably the therapod descendants the birds did with the “terror birds” the Phorusrhacids of the Cenozoic of South America.

The Sauropoda don’t have a direct equivalent the Titanotheres got big, but not as big and giraffes etc. Have the long neck but that long neck, long tail form seems to have gone with the dinosaurs.

I’m sure there are others and it probably had to do with their environment or which form adapted first to whichever ecological niche opened up. Some niches must have remained “occupied” so nothing else intruded so no Mammal crocodiles.
I dunno – Worth a discussion?
 
Tunn11 said:
Always struck me as odd that that body form has not been "used" by anything else. Ichthyosaurs and Dolphins looking like fish but the whole long neck form; Plesiosaur, elasmosaur, pliosaur, seems to have gone. Wonder why when that form obviously worked well for so long. Have the seals occupied that niche?
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I wonder if the long neck would make the creature vulnerable to attacks by other predators.
 
Bigphoot2 said:
I wonder if the long neck would make the creature vulnerable to attacks by other predators.
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I've often thought the same thing. Other horrendous predators existed in those seas, including other, more robust plesiosaurs. But it's a complicated topic, and while the question of why pinnipeds haven't developed such a body form is relevant to Nessie (because they may have in the past, and Nessie could be an example of that development), I think it might outside of the current purview of this thread at the moment. I do seem to remember a report of a long necked seal from history, I think from the Arctic regions.
 
PeteByrdie said:
I've often thought the same thing. Other horrendous predators existed in those seas, including other, more robust plesiosaurs. But it's a complicated topic, and while the question of why pinnipeds haven't developed such a body form is relevant to Nessie (because they may have in the past, and Nessie could be an example of that development), I think it might outside of the current purview of this thread at the moment. I do seem to remember a report of a long necked seal from history, I think from the Arctic regions.
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A long-necked seal did exist:

long_necked_seal.jpg


Maybe it still does?
 
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maximus otter said:
Existence of Loch Ness Monster is ‘plausible’ after fossil discovery

The Loch Ness Monster is “plausible”, a British university has declared, after finding that some plesiosaurs may have lived in freshwater.

Nessie proponents have long believed that the creature of Scottish folklore could be a prehistoric reptile, with grainy images and eyewitness accounts over the years hinting that the beast has a long-neck and small head similar to a plesiosaur.

However, skeptics argue that even if a plesiosaur lineage had survived into the modern era, the creatures could not have lived in Loch Ness because they needed a saltwater environment.

Now, the University of Bath has found fossils of small plesiosaurs in a 100-million-year-old river system that is now in Morocco’s Sahara Desert, suggesting they did live in freshwater.

The fossils…hint that these creatures routinely lived and fed in freshwater, alongside frogs, crocodiles, turtles [and] fish.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/07/26/existence-loch-ness-monster-plausible-fossil-discovery/

maximus otter
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But ...but...whilst plesiosaurs might have lived in fresh water, Loch Ness was only formed after the glaciers melted after the last Ice Age. When all available pleisosaurs had been dead and gone for millions of years,
 
catseye said:
But ...but...whilst plesiosaurs might have lived in fresh water, Loch Ness was only formed after the glaciers melted after the last Ice Age. When all available pleisosaurs had been dead and gone for millions of years,
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Strongly suggests that 'Nessie' moved into the Loch (Ness) from elsewhere then?
 
catseye said:
But ...but...whilst plesiosaurs might have lived in fresh water, Loch Ness was only formed after the glaciers melted after the last Ice Age. When all available pleisosaurs had been dead and gone for millions of years,
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As far as we know they'd been extinct for millions of years. But, most likely, yes. I feel we've been going in circles regarding the plesiosaur identification of Nessie for some time, though.
 
Mythopoeika said:
A long-necked seal did exist:

long_necked_seal.jpg


Maybe it still does?
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That is the illustration accompanying the 1751 account of a long-necked seal:

"James Parsons (1751) included an illustration [shown above] and description of this pinniped. He described how it was '[M]uch slenderer than either of the former [two other pinnipeds were described earlier in the manuscript]; but that, wherein he principally differs, is the length of his neck; for from his nose-end to his fore-feet, and from thence to his tail, are the same measure; as also in that, instead of his fore-feet, he hath rather fins; not having any claws thereon, as have the other kinds. The head and neck of this species are exactly like those of an otter. One of those, which is also now in our musaeum [sic], taken notice of by the same author, has an head shaped like that of a tortoise; less in proportion than that of every other species, with a narrowness of stricture round the neck: the fore-feet of these are five-finger'd, with nails, like the common seal. Their size, as to the utmost growth of an adult, is also very different. That before described, was 7 feet and an half in length; and, being very young, had scarce any teeth at all' (Parsons 1751, p. 111)."

Whether it was merely a common or grey seal with a freakishly long neck (like the pinniped version of a certain footballer):

ronaldo.png


... or a genuinely hitherto unknown species is not clear.
The fact that such a beast has not been caught or photographed since suggests to me that it was an extremely rare seal mutation.
 
Sid said:
Strongly suggests that 'Nessie' moved into the Loch (Ness) from elsewhere then?
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But where? A breeding population would have had to move in, and iirc all the access channels are too small for ingress of anything much bigger than large seals.
 
Tunn11 said:
Always struck me as odd that that body form has not been "used" by anything else. Ichthyosaurs and Dolphins looking like fish but the whole long neck form; Plesiosaur, elasmosaur, pliosaur, seems to have gone. Wonder why when that form obviously worked well for so long. Have the seals occupied that niche?
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There was once a long necked species of seal. But if lake monsters were long necked seals we would see them coming up for air, sleeping on the shore and pupping on the shore.
 
Coal said:
I was suggesting that stating a creature might have once existed, does not strengthen the case for one existing either (a) today or (b) in a Scottish loch.
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As there is no really sound evidence for it's existence, that is obvious 'Coal!'
I didn't state that it does; did, or doesn't exist, merely - that for a creature of that size to live in the loch, it would have had to get there by travelling, and exploration from elsewhere.
 
On the long neck thing:
Using the long neck to allow the head to dart about from side to side to catch small prey would be difficult. If the long lever of the neck was moving sideways through the water, it would encounter considerable resistance. Also, it would cause pressure waves which may alert the prey.

Bending the neck to pull the head back, then letting the neck suddenly extend forwards to strike like a snake might work. It is easier to accelerate a small head than a huge body. However, if the necks were not very flexible, this explanation has to be ruled out.

Illustrations sometimes show the plesiosaur in the water but with its head extended into the air to catch birds. That would be a very strange feeding strategy: a big heavy water-bound creature trying to snatch fast moving birds out of the air, rather than slow moving fish out of the water.

It was definitely not for using like a snorkel. If the body of the plesiosaur was only a metre below the surface and the head was above the surface, drawing air in against the water pressure would be impossible.

If the plesiosaur was in water with big waves, it may help to be able to get the head well clear of the water to enable it to breathe pure air rather than spray.

However, if we look we look for extant creatures that feed in the water and have long necks, we find the swan, the goose, the heron, the stork and so on.

Some sea birds feed by diving below the water and swimming to their food source. Others feed by staying on the surface and extending their head down to the bottom. A plesiosaur with a long neck could stay on or near the surface and extend its head down to feed on small fish, crustaceans, shellfish, or whatever suited it. This is my best guess.

Back to the Loch Ness thing:
Establishing that some plesiosaurs lived in fresh water in no way makes the Loch Ness Monster more plausible. It is a typical silly hook for a headline, as bad as every unexplained "sea monster" sighting anywhere in the world being described as "Nessie on holiday."
 
Just to return to the 18th century account of a long-necked seal, I note that James Parsons described it as "[M]uch slenderer than either of the former two seals]".

I wonder if it was simply an elderly and emaciated specimen which had lost the usual rolls of fat around its belly and neck (unlike the obviously well-fed example below) , thereby giving the impression of a freakishly long neck?

seal.png
 
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gordonrutter said:
But was the plesiosaur really long necked?

Look at this skeleton and think what reconstructions would look like.

View attachment 57643
But this is what the animal,actually looks like.

View attachment 57644
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I don't follow the evidence regarding Mesozoic animals much but I thought the evidence had led away from Plesiosaurs having such a clearly defined fat body and skinny neck, and pointed toward a life appearance more like the animal above.
 
lordmongrove said:
There was once a long necked species of seal. But if lake monsters were long necked seals we would see them coming up for air, sleeping on the shore and pupping on the shore.
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Could the long neck be an adaptation to enable an entirely marine/aquatic lifestyle? Bit of a long shot but could it enable young to be born in water and allow resting with head held above water? Doesn't help with lake dwellers, unless it's a truly huge lake but could do for an ocean going species.
 
Tunn11 said:
Could the long neck be an adaptation to enable an entirely marine/aquatic lifestyle? Bit of a long shot but could it enable young to be born in water and allow resting with head held above water? Doesn't help with lake dwellers, unless it's a truly huge lake but could do for an ocean going species.
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There could be unknown species that superfically resemble plesiosaurs through convergent evolution. However a long necked seal would still need to come up for air and would be seen much more often in lakes.
 
Still looking after 30 years by the loch.

Record-breaking Loch Ness Monster hunter who has chased Nessie for over three decades vows to find proof​

Steve Feltham, 59, has been keeping a watchful eye over the famous loch since 1991.


Steve Feltham, 59, has been casting a watchful eye over the lake for over 30 years (Image: Gary Anthony/SWNS)
A record-breaking Loch Ness Monster hunter who has been searching for Nessie for over three decades has vowed that he will remain on the shores of the famous loch until he proves that its famous resident is real.
Steve Feltham, 59, moved to the banks of Loch Ness in June 1991, and has dedicated over half his life to the search for the truth about the legendary monster. He has previously been recognised by Guinness World Records for the longest continuous monster-hunting vigil of the loch.
He explained: "I hold the world record for hunting Nessie. I've kept watch since June 19, 1991, so 31 years. I'm going to stay here until I get the proof, that's my life's work. I need to prove to myself it's real. This is something I need to get closure on."
A tourist attraction in his own right, fans of the mystery often travel up to the loch as much to speak with Steve, in his former mobile library home at Dores, as they do to try and spot the monster.
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https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/scotland-now/record-breaking-loch-ness-monster-27628167
 
I didn't see this posted, thought I would. Our NY Post from July 27, 2022, reports that the Loch Ness Monster may actually be real:

The Loch Ness monster may be real, scientists now say​


The mythical Loch Ness monster may, in fact, be real.

According to a new joint study, released Wednesday by the University of Bath and University of Portsmouth in the UK and Université Hassan II in Morocco, fossils of plesiosaurs were found in the Morocco portion of the Sahara Desert, reported Newsweek.

The study — published in Cretaceous Research — suggests that 100 million years ago, the desert was once a body of freshwater where hundreds of carnivores lived together.

Several fossils including teeth from adult plesiosaurs that measured 9 feet in length and baby plesiosaurs — measuring 5 feet long — were found at the dig site.

“It’s scrappy stuff, but isolated bones actually tell us a lot about ancient ecosystems and animals in them,” said Dr. Nick Longrich, one of the co-authors of the study.

https://nypost.com/2022/07/27/the-loch-ness-monster-may-be-real-scientists-now-say/
 
Ronnie Jersey said:
I didn't see this posted, thought I would. Our NY Post from July 27, 2022, reports that the Loch Ness Monster may actually be real:

The Loch Ness monster was once hypothesised to be a Plesiosaur. Fossils have been found of what may have been freshwater Plesiosaurs. These two things are not connected, proper scientists say.​


The mythical Loch Ness monster may, in fact, be real.

According to a new joint study, released Wednesday by the University of Bath and University of Portsmouth in the UK and Université Hassan II in Morocco, fossils of plesiosaurs were found in the Morocco portion of the Sahara Desert, reported Newsweek.

The study — published in Cretaceous Research — suggests that 100 million years ago, the desert was once a body of freshwater where hundreds of carnivores lived together.

Several fossils including teeth from adult plesiosaurs that measured 9 feet in length and baby plesiosaurs — measuring 5 feet long — were found at the dig site.

“It’s scrappy stuff, but isolated bones actually tell us a lot about ancient ecosystems and animals in them,” said Dr. Nick Longrich, one of the co-authors of the study.

https://nypost.com/2022/07/27/the-loch-ness-monster-may-be-real-scientists-now-say/
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FTFY
 
Fifth Loch Ness monster sighting of year as wake is spotted moving against current for seven minutes

After a quiet few months, it appears Nessie is back. A local resident has become the fifth person to have an official Loch Ness Monster sighting this year after spotting something moving against the current for over seven minutes.

LochNews-2208Sighting.jpg


According to The Official Loch Ness Monster Sightings Register this is the first official sighting since the last one was recorded in April. The incident, which took place on August 27, occurred at the northern tip of the loch.

Posting on the official website, keeper Gary Campbell, who has recorded over a thousand sightings, wrote: "A local resident was on the hill above Lochend when they saw a wake moving against prevailing currents from Lochend in the direction of Drumnadrochit.

"There was no visible cause of wake. The sighting lasted seven minutes and they took some video footage."

He then posted a clip from the video which shows the unusual wake but no object on the surface can be seen causing it.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/scotland-now/fifth-loch-ness-monster-sighting-27891795

maximus otter
 
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