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Well I repeat your opinion

Personally I avoid processed food full stop (other than bread). They are stripped off their nutrients during the processing and adding them back in at a later stage just isn't the same. Instead, I cook from scratch and but meat once or twice a week to make a casserole or similar. It can be time consuming but I enjoy it. never eat ready meals or takeaways other than the occasional Cornish pasty or fish and chips if I'm away from home.If I could tolerate dairy I would eat more cheese and less meat but unfortunately it upsets my stomach.

As regards vegans, I just don't get what is so wrong about eggs. Yes, battery chickens are cruel and should be banned. However, organic free-range eggs are available from all supermarkets and I have visited an organic farm and seen how these chickens live contented lives foraging and dust bathing outdoors during the day. Much better welfare and longer, safer lives than wild birds. Eggs are cheap, nutritious and incredibly versatile.

I have heard that some farms will euthanise day-old male chicks and I would like to see this banned, but then if you have seen the small mammals that get shredded by a combine harvester producing grains for human consumption then you realise whatever we eat will adversely impact animals in some manner.
Agreed.
Yes, processsed food is not good and apart from cheese I eat very little of it myself. I also haven't had a take-away for years.

One of the things I've always loved to make is casserole and yes it's not the same without meat (but after 40 years of eating meat, that is not surprising). I do find that diced tuna makes a good 'meaty' substitute though.

As for eggs, yes I think it's the battery ones that (quite rightly) upset vegans. In the 90s I briefly worked in chicken sheds and looking back it was quite horrible for them.
I couldn't/wouldn't do it now.

Weeks one to six.
 

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Agreed.
Yes, processsed food is not good and apart from cheese I eat very little of it myself. I also haven't had a take-away for years.

One of the things I've always loved to make is casserole and yes it's not the same without meat (but after 40 years of eating meat, that is not surprising). I do find that diced tuna makes a good 'meaty' substitute though.

As for eggs, yes I think it's the battery ones that (quite rightly) upset vegans. In the 90s I briefly worked in chicken sheds and looking back it was quite horrible for them.
I couldn't/wouldn't do it now.

Weeks one to six.
Apparently vegans won't eat high-welfare free-range organic eggs because it is "exploitation".

I won't eat cheap, low-welfare chicken either. The conditions are similarly appalling. I am not on a big wage but I can afford some organic chicken legs and/or thighs for my stew or sometimes I will treat myself to a whole organic chicken and make a number of meals from it. I would rather go without a movie or some snacks than buy that pink, jelly-like, cheap low-welfare stuff. So this means I don't eat chicken I haven't cooked myself unless I can guarantee it is at least free-range. Oh, and yes, there is a huge difference in taste, in fact people who eat only the cheap, indoor-reared chicken often say organic is too tough and gamey.
 
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Oh, and yes, there is a huge difference in taste, in fact people who eat only the cheap, indoor-reared chicken often say organic is too tough and gamey.
People get used to eating cheap meat. When confronted with the real stuff, they may not like it.
Tough means 'low fat'. Gamey means 'has a taste'.
 
People get used to eating cheap meat. When confronted with the real stuff, they may not like it.
Tough means 'low fat'. Gamey means 'has a taste'.
Even wild pigeon and rabbit are relatively tough and gamey and once a pheasant's been in the wild for a year or two, they are as well. Best slow casseroled, although my maternal grandfather used to say rabbit kits could be fried and were very tender.
 
Apparently vegans won't eat high-welfare free-range organic eggs because it is "exploitation".
Although I'm a 50+ year veggie I couldn't care less what anyone else eats. What I've never understood is vegetarians that eat eggs and fish, and now we have egg eating vegans.

Fish are living creatures and eggs are liquid meat.

Someone I know has become a vegan but still eats fish, egg and chicken. I did venture to point out the bleeding obvious. The reply involved a lot of Buddhist mumbo jumbo bewildering that went down the rabbit hole.
 
Just my twopence worth as a 'vegan' myself..

I call myself vegan, because on a day to day basis, I do my best not buy or eat animal products. But my biggest concern around animal consumption is suffering. I don't actually have a big problem with eating meat per se, but I do think if we're going to kill and eat animals, they should at least be allowed to live without pain or fear or distress, be allowed freedom to move around and express some natural behaviours, and slaughtered humanely.

But, I also refuse to be an a$$hole about it; everyone knows and gets annoyed with the dogmatic vegans that refuse to eat their salad because the tongs touched some ham or something ridiculous (allergies aside), and there are bigger problems in the world that need solving first. If someone offers me meat, and I know where it came from, or it would otherwise go to waste, I'll do something with it.

There are also differences in the level of acceptability according to each person's own moral standards; Some people see a few free range eggs as perfectly acceptable in an otherwise 'vegan' diet, other people won't; there's certainly an argument that can be made that eggs are very different in terms of welfare to something like the dairy industry (the fate of bull calves is honestly heart-breaking :().

I actually think it's better people accept it's a complicated subject, with lots of shades of grey and different 'right' answers for different people, rather than reducing it to a simplistic, black & white, all or nothing decision.
 
Although I'm a 50+ year veggie I couldn't care less what anyone else eats. What I've never understood is vegetarians that eat eggs and fish, and now we have egg eating vegans.

Fish are living creatures and eggs are liquid meat.

Someone I know has become a vegan but still eats fish, egg and chicken. I did venture to point out the bleeding obvious. The reply involved a lot of Buddhist mumbo jumbo bewildering that went down the rabbit hole.
If you eat fish then you're not a vegetarian, and if you're vegan you don't eat eggs or, obviously fish and chicken. It's as simple as that.
 
Just my twopence worth as a 'vegan' myself..

I call myself vegan, because on a day to day basis, I do my best not buy or eat animal products. But my biggest concern around animal consumption is suffering. I don't actually have a big problem with eating meat per se, but I do think if we're going to kill and eat animals, they should at least be allowed to live without pain or fear or distress, be allowed freedom to move around and express some natural behaviours, and slaughtered humanely.

But, I also refuse to be an a$$hole about it; everyone knows and gets annoyed with the dogmatic vegans that refuse to eat their salad because the tongs touched some ham or something ridiculous (allergies aside), and there are bigger problems in the world that need solving first. If someone offers me meat, and I know where it came from, or it would otherwise go to waste, I'll do something with it.

There are also differences in the level of acceptability according to each person's own moral standards; Some people see a few free range eggs as perfectly acceptable in an otherwise 'vegan' diet, other people won't; there's certainly an argument that can be made that eggs are very different in terms of welfare to something like the dairy industry (the fate of bull calves is honestly heart-breaking :().

I actually think it's better people accept it's a complicated subject, with lots of shades of grey and different 'right' answers for different people, rather than reducing it to a simplistic, black & white, all or nothing decision.
It's not complicated. You're simply not a vegan then.
And it's not just about food, it concerns other products too. Do you check toiletries for example? No vegan and most vegetarians would not use non vegan deodorant/toothpaste/soap/laundry detergent etc.
And I also don't consume anything that I know has come into contact with something I don't eat.
I don't see how the 'bigger problems of the world' are anything to do with that. That's like saying what does anything matter.
 
Most people in this country claim to be animal lovers yet they eat meat including most vets. Surely that is a contradiction?

I agree though, 'just so long as it's not on my conscience'. If you want to eat it, kill it yourself.
I've always regarded the prices you pay at a butchers is your "conscience money". Many meat-eaters are squeamish over the preparation of the meat, not the origin.
In the past I've fished and hunted ... preparing the results of both. But I don't need to do this so why should I? Sport? Not for me. I see any catch as an end result of the effort taken.
When buying meat or fish, I go for local, independent butchers etc. This might be more expensive but it's more traceable and, ultimately, a better quality.
I went to a vegetarian boarding school, where a majority of pupils weren't actually vegetarian. I didn't mind; it was all life experience to me. I learned many and varied vegetarian recipes which, in the mid seventies sahf London where I grew up, was quite eye-opening! I appreciate the many and varied arguments for vegetarianism but none have impacted on me enough to change my eating habits. I eat more vegetables & fruit for reasons of cost, rather than morality. But I still eat meat when I can. It's just my tastes.
 
I went to a vegetarian boarding school, where a majority of pupils weren't actually vegetarian. I didn't mind; it was all life experience to me. I learned many and varied vegetarian recipes which, in the mid seventies sahf London where I grew up, was quite eye-opening!
I didn't know such boarding schools existed- especially in the 70s!
You southerners were definitely radical back then, I'll give you that!
 
I've always regarded the prices you pay at a butchers is your "conscience money". Many meat-eaters are squeamish over the preparation of the meat, not the origin.
In the past I've fished and hunted ... preparing the results of both. But I don't need to do this so why should I? Sport? Not for me. I see any catch as an end result of the effort taken.
When buying meat or fish, I go for local, independent butchers etc. This might be more expensive but it's more traceable and, ultimately, a better quality.
I went to a vegetarian boarding school, where a majority of pupils weren't actually vegetarian. I didn't mind; it was all life experience to me. I learned many and varied vegetarian recipes which, in the mid seventies sahf London where I grew up, was quite eye-opening! I appreciate the many and varied arguments for vegetarianism but none have impacted on me enough to change my eating habits. I eat more vegetables & fruit for reasons of cost, rather than morality. But I still eat meat when I can. It's just my tastes.
Wasn't the Dartington school in Devon by any chance...?
 
Are Steiner schools vegetarian? I can't find specific info but he was himself.
''There's something undeniably wholesome about the Steiner approach. In an age when toddlers are adept at using iPhones, the idea of children building shelters in the woods is profoundly attractive to parents. Access to television is restricted – under the homeschool agreement with parents, children are not meant to watch TV before the age of eight. There is no uniform; the children wear hoodies, sturdy trousers and plimsolls, and the canteen serves mainly vegetarian food. A homely vegetable curry spiced with mustard seeds is dish of the day when I visit''.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2012/may/25/steiner-state-funded-free-schools
 
''There's something undeniably wholesome about the Steiner approach. In an age when toddlers are adept at using iPhones, the idea of children building shelters in the woods is profoundly attractive to parents. Access to television is restricted – under the homeschool agreement with parents, children are not meant to watch TV before the age of eight. There is no uniform; the children wear hoodies, sturdy trousers and plimsolls, and the canteen serves mainly vegetarian food. A homely vegetable curry spiced with mustard seeds is dish of the day when I visit''.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2012/may/25/steiner-state-funded-free-schools
I worked with some former students of the Steiner school outside of Dartington. They are late-teens and weren't vegetarian as their parents bought meat from the Riverford organic farm shop. So I imagine a diet rich in fruit, veg and cheese plus some organic meat and local fish etc.
 
Very good article from the Guardian, and I imagine somewhat written through gritted teeth as the Guardian is decidedly pro-vegan:

"For the previous year, Robinson had been suffering from various health problems – low energy levels, brain fog, painful periods and dull skin – which she now believes were the result of her diet. She says her decline was gradual and almost went unnoticed. “Because it’s not an instant depletion, you don’t suddenly feel bad the next day, it’s months down the line. It’s very, very slow.” In just over a year, the balanced plant-based food she cooked daily from scratch, using organic vegetables from the farm she works on, and legumes and nuts vital for protein, had, she felt, taken a toll on her body."

and:

"But around year three, despite taking all the right supplements, problems began to arise. Kelly began noticing he was struggling to put on weight despite eating a calorific diet of grains, fruits and vegetables, proteins and plant fats. Digestive issues left him passing blood and going to the toilet up to 16 times a day"

Both and others featured in the article saw immediate improvements in their health after reintroducing an omnivorous diet but unfortunately many were subject to vitriol from the online vegan community.

The full lengthy article is here:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...eats-the-vicious-backlash-facing-fomer-vegans
 
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Very good article from the Guardian, and I imagine somewhat written through gritted teeth as the Guardian is decidedly pro-vegan:

"For the previous year, Robinson had been suffering from various health problems – low energy levels, brain fog, painful periods and dull skin – which she now believes were the result of her diet. She says her decline was gradual and almost went unnoticed. “Because it’s not an instant depletion, you don’t suddenly feel bad the next day, it’s months down the line. It’s very, very slow.” In just over a year, the balanced plant-based food she cooked daily from scratch, using organic vegetables from the farm she works on, and legumes and nuts vital for protein, had, she felt, taken a toll on her body."

and:

"But around year three, despite taking all the right supplements, problems began to arise. Kelly began noticing he was struggling to put on weight despite eating a calorific diet of grains, fruits and vegetables, proteins and plant fats. Digestive issues left him passing blood and going to the toilet up to 16 times a day"

Both and others featured in the article saw immediate improvements in their health after reintroducing an omnivorous diet but unfortunately many were subject to vitriol from the online vegan community:

The full lengthy article is here:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...eats-the-vicious-backlash-facing-fomer-vegans
A vegan lifestyle does require careful consideration to one's diet to ensure your body gets what it needs (meat has many issues, but lack of nutrients is not one of them). I should imagine that 's not an isolated case - the youngest Coalette tried it for almost a year, but struggled with the logistics of getting everything to eat healthily, but ultimately getting her own place pushed her back to including eggs and cheese, for cost reasons as much as anything. She didn't miss being vegan and also felt a lot better as a result, a lot less tired for example.
 
The education provider I work for contracts out its catering and the caterers were seemingly bullied by a small minority of staff and/or students into promoting vegan food including fake meat above non-vegan food and banning beef. To be honest it was the vegetarians I felt sorry for as there were no longer any cheese-based dishes for them to choose.

This was despite no supporting long term studies into the effects of a vegan diet on teenagers growth and development, in fact quite the opposite:

https://inews.co.uk/news/environmen...iciencies-meat-dairy-vegan-vegetarian-1392816

Not that it mattered, as the queue outside the local fast food joint got even longer and lo and behold the catering has been given a complete refresh this year and beef is back as a choice along with tasty vegetarian choices.
 
The education provider I work for contracts out its catering and the caterers were seemingly bullied by a small minority of staff and/or students into promoting vegan food including fake meat above non-vegan food and banning beef. To be honest it was the vegetarians I felt sorry for as there were no longer any cheese-based dishes for them to choose.
tbh this is what I have the biggest issue with, the restriction of free choice. Be a vegan by all means, for whatever reason, but it's not any vegan's place (or anyone else's) to dictate what other people can and can't eat.
 
A vegan lifestyle does require careful consideration to one's diet to ensure your body gets what it needs (meat has many issues, but lack of nutrients is not one of them). I should imagine that 's not an isolated case - the youngest Coalette tried it for almost a year, but struggled with the logistics of getting everything to eat healthily, but ultimately getting her own place pushed her back to including eggs and cheese, for cost reasons as much as anything. She didn't miss being vegan and also felt a lot better as a result, a lot less tired for example.
I think many people are simply unsuited to a vegan diet as there digestive system can't handle for a start (and that is even after three year or so of 'converting'). But I think another overlooked affect of veganism is that most convert after a childhood of eating dairy and eggs and often meat, too. So they already have built their bones and bodies and stored essential minerals etc. Thus it is only after a period of depletion that the symptoms show up. This makes it all the more concerning that much younger children might adopt these diets.
 
tbh this is what I have the biggest issue with, the restriction of free choice. Be a vegan by all means, for whatever reason, but it's not any vegan's place (or anyone else's) to dictate what other people can and can't eat.
The football club Forest Green Rovers is a good example, selling only vegan food at the ground.

On their website:

"Our players benefit from improved performance thanks to a vegan diet."

https://www.fgr.co.uk/vegan-food

Really? They got beaten 0-4 at home yesterday and sit 22nd in the third tier:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/62937147
 
tbh this is what I have the biggest issue with, the restriction of free choice. Be a vegan by all means, for whatever reason, but it's not any vegan's place (or anyone else's) to dictate what other people can and can't eat.
The freedom of choice was taken away after birth as parents naturally feed their children what they prefer whether animal based, veggie or vegan and that then becomes the standard by which alternative choices are measured against. As our society is predominately based round a diet of meat, fish and eggs as a part of it, anything else is considered going against the norm.

In large parts of India it would be the opposite.
 
The freedom of choice was taken away after birth as parents naturally feed their children what they prefer whether animal based, veggie or vegan and that then becomes the standard by which alternative choices are measured against. As our society is predominately based round a diet of meat, fish and eggs as a part of it, anything else is considered going against the norm.

In large parts of India it would be the opposite.
Vegetarianism is popular in India (32% in this study) but then 68% are not vegetarian. Estimates for vegans are about 1%.

https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1475-2891-13-55
 
The freedom of choice was taken away after birth as parents naturally feed their children what they prefer whether animal based, veggie or vegan and that then becomes the standard by which alternative choices are measured against.
So what? This doesn't give anyone the right to hector other about their choices or restrict them, based on an opinion.
As our society is predominately based round a diet of meat, fish and eggs as a part of it, anything else is considered going against the norm.
So what? This doesn't give anyone the right to hector other about their choices or restrict them, based on an opinion.
In large parts of India it would be the opposite.
Is poverty a factor?
 
So what? This doesn't give anyone the right to hector other about their choices or restrict them, based on an opinion.

So what? This doesn't give anyone the right to hector other about their choices or restrict them, based on an opinion.

Is poverty a factor?
Hindu's traditionally are vegetarian based on their scriptures although things are changing.

My point was about actually about choices being made for us and generally how we stick to that when older. I should have made that clearer.

I was harassed a few months ago by a screaming bunch of vegans in Waitrose. They came across as rabid nutcases who should be in straight jackets.
 
Hindu's traditionally are vegetarian based on their scriptures although things are changing.

My point was about actually about choices being made for us and generally how we stick to that when older. I should have made that clearer.

I was harassed a few months ago by a screaming bunch of vegans in Waitrose. They came across as rabid nutcases who should be in straight jackets.
:hoff:
 
Wasn't the Dartington school in Devon by any chance...?
Nah. St. Christopher's in Hertfordshire.
Funny about Steiner Schools, our one also had no school uniform (apart from sports kit), co-ed, and called staff by their first name if said staff member didn't mind.
 
I was harassed a few months ago by a screaming bunch of vegans in Waitrose. They came across as rabid nutcases who should be in straight jackets.
I was thinking about this yesterday and how this, shall we say, 'no-debate' tactic seems to common in certain areas of belief.

It's not only the case that it simply doesn't work, in terms of changing anyone's mind; it literally has the opposite effect. People perceive see this kind of forcing as diminishing their own agency, so oppose it on principle (the backfire effect).

People understand this on an intuitive level - e.g. this is a trope in cartoons, the old 'Loony Tunes' staple of the protagonists arguing back and forth "Yes it is/no it isn't" really fast, then one character flips their answer and this flips the other's.

So in general people understand this approach doesn't actually work. If anything it makes 'conversion' less likely.

So I kinda conclude that, subconsciously at least, that the 'screaming in your face' people are just virtue signalling. It's not really important to them to change minds or views, only to show that they are ethically superior (so are 'entitled' to use force).
 
I was thinking about this yesterday and how this, shall we say, 'no-debate' tactic seems to common in certain areas of belief.

It's not only the case that it simply doesn't work, in terms of changing anyone's mind; it literally has the opposite effect. People perceive see this kind of forcing as diminishing their own agency, so oppose it on principle (the backfire effect).

People understand this on an intuitive level - e.g. this is a trope in cartoons, the old 'Loony Tunes' staple of the protagonists arguing back and forth "Yes it is/no it isn't" really fast, then one character flips their answer and this flips the other's.

So in general people understand this approach doesn't actually work. If anything it makes 'conversion' less likely.

So I kinda conclude that, subconsciously at least, that the 'screaming in your face' people are just virtue signalling. It's not really important to them to change minds or views, only to show that they are ethically superior (so are 'entitled' to use force).
Amen.
 
Hindu's traditionally are vegetarian based on their scriptures although things are changing.

My point was about actually about choices being made for us and generally how we stick to that when older. I should have made that clearer.

I was harassed a few months ago by a screaming bunch of vegans in Waitrose. They came across as rabid nutcases who should be in straight jackets.
I've got to ask, what depraved activity had you committed (in their eyes) for such abuse?
 
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