Why Haven't Aliens Contacted Us Yet? (Fermi Paradox)

[C.O.T.]

Organic human-level intelligence may be just a brief interlude in human history before the machines take over.

And maybe is closer than it seems. Didn't told when posted but the nice pic that put on the past replies was not made by me nor by any human, was generated by a neural intelligence. As this ones that follow:

Have to admit that a nowadays computer is far better artist than me. You can try it by yourself for free here :


DreamStudio

 

[Tunn11]

What if organic minds can be downloaded into a mechanical probe which is launched on a sub light speed journey?
It could be in "hibernation" until arrival but there would be some sort of cyborg at the destination rather than a purely robotic or AI probe.

 

[SimonBurchell]

What if organic minds can be downloaded into a mechanical probe which is launched on a sub light speed journey?
It could be in "hibernation" until arrival but there would be some sort of cyborg at the destination rather than a purely robotic or AI probe.

Or even a completely organic construct. Which begs the question, given the age of the universe and the size of the galaxy, why haven't we seen any of this?

 

[Tunn11]

Or even a completely organic construct. Which begs the question, given the age of the universe and the size of the galaxy, why haven't we seen any of this?

Yes, back to the original question. I still think it is a matter of the life of technological civilisations and or timing although mechanical/cyborg/biological constructs may extend the life of a civilisation. Also when did they get here? If it was during a snowball Earth phase perhaps we were just logged as another ice world - nothing to see here.

I also wonder what role the moon played in the evolution of life here. Plate tectonics, tides, etc. Double planets can't be unique but they must be rare at least near to stars. Would that make us a more or less interesting target if for instance most life evolves on moons of gas giants?

A half formed thought as I type - if we are restricted to sub light speeds does the expansion of the universe affect the Fermi paradox?

 

[SimonBurchell]

Yes, back to the original question. I still think it is a matter of the life of technological civilisations and or timing although mechanical/cyborg/biological constructs may extend the life of a civilisation. Also when did they get here? If it was during a snowball Earth phase perhaps we were just logged as another ice world - nothing to see here.

I also wonder what role the moon played in the evolution of life here. Plate tectonics, tides, etc. Double planets can't be unique but they must be rare at least near to stars. Would that make us a more or less interesting target if for instance most life evolves on moons of gas giants?

A half formed thought as I type - if we are restricted to sub light speeds does the expansion of the universe affect the Fermi paradox?

A part of the Fermi Paradox is that, even at sublight speeds, the entire galaxy should have been colonised by self-replicating probes by now, given the age of the universe.

 

[Tunn11]

A part of the Fermi Paradox is that, even at sublight speeds, the entire galaxy should have been colonised by self-replicating probes by now, given the age of the universe.

Perhaps self replicating probes are very, very, very, very difficult to make!

 

[Mythopoeika]

Perhaps self replicating probes are very, very, very, very difficult to make!

They're not.
In theory, anyway.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

Perhaps self replicating probes are very, very, very, very difficult to make!

Wouldn't self-replicating devices present a danger to organic life?
Given enough time, they could theoretically occupy an infinite amount of space - rather like those monkeys thrashing away at typewriters trying to reproduce the works of Shakespeare.

 

[Trevp666]

No I reckon that is a self-defeating endeavour. For self-replicating devices to occupy an infinite space they would need an infinite amount of material to use to construct themselves. A point would be reached at which the devices would occupy a greater space than that which the unused material does, at which time there would not be any room for the devices to occupy any further.

 

[Tunn11]

There's always the idea of nano probes which may not be self replicating but would be very difficult to detect. The sort of thing Hawking wanted to send to Proxima.

Although a nano probe to us may be a full sized probe to the aliens or a dwarf planet sized body to us may be a nano probe to them.

How far from us does a probe have to be to be useful to them and to be detectable to us? We are not even sure there isn't a planet nine out there so a sophisticated probe at that that distance or outside the plane of the elliptic may be there already. Maybe the Edgeworth Kuiper belt or the Oort cloud offer better material for self replicating devices?

 

[Robbrent]

I got to thinking about this again the other night whilst gazing up at the night sky, life on earth is dependent on the peculiarities of the earth, everything is just right, even the size of this planet is just right, everything seems perfect to have organic life thrive and prosper (one could say it's designed that way but that's another argument), so out of the infinite number of galaxies and stars there must be a few replicas where everything is just so, but perhaps we are all in the same stages of evolution or even some are way behind or way in front but they are so far apart we are destined never to meet or communicate, come to think of it if another humanoid species exists we would be well advised to keep clear we can't even live in peace amongst ourselves

 

[SimonBurchell]

I got to thinking about this again the other night whilst gazing up at the night sky, life on earth is dependent on the peculiarities of the earth, everything is just right, even the size of this planet is just right, everything seems perfect to have organic life thrive and prosper (one could say it's designed that way but that's another argument), so out of the infinite number of galaxies and stars there must be a few replicas where everything is just so, but perhaps we are all in the same stages of evolution or even some are way behind or way in front but they are so far apart we are destined never to meet or communicate, come to think of it if another humanoid species exists we would be well advised to keep clear we can't even live in peace amongst ourselves

I sometimes look up at the night sky and wonder if there are any dark, silent cryogenic arks trundling along at sublight speeds in the unfathomable vastness of interstellar space, eons from leaving their home and eons from arriving at any destination...

 

[Tunn11]

I got to thinking about this again the other night whilst gazing up at the night sky, life on earth is dependent on the peculiarities of the earth, everything is just right, even the size of this planet is just right, everything seems perfect to have organic life thrive and prosper (one could say it's designed that way but that's another argument), so out of the infinite number of galaxies and stars there must be a few replicas where everything is just so, but perhaps we are all in the same stages of evolution or even some are way behind or way in front but they are so far apart we are destined never to meet or communicate, come to think of it if another humanoid species exists we would be well advised to keep clear we can't even live in peace amongst ourselves

There is of course the argument that we think it is just right because that's where we've evolved and are therefore suited to it, and then only part of it. We wouldn't last long in the ocean depths for instance. The atmosphere of the Earth used to be toxic to us until, we think stromatolites started to photosynthesise oxygen.

Carbon based and reliant on water is our best bet for life elsewhere but to quote Patrick Moore "We just don't know."

It has been pointed out elsewhere on this thread that water is pretty strange stuff and open liquid water on a planetary surface may be unusual (Look at Mars and Venus) If life developed on oceans under a blanket of ice such as we think exist on some of the gas giant moons (Europa, Enceladus, etc.) what are their chances of finding out about the universe? The sky really would be the interior of a crystal sphere as some of our civilisations believed.

If we think getting off the Earth is difficult , imagine that!

 

[eburacum]

Perhaps self replicating probes are very, very, very, very difficult to make!

Self-replicating entities such as bacteria, lichens, ants, and humans are not that difficult to make once they have evolved; they can be manufactured by unskilled labour, after all. The difficult part is creating the blueprints.

I think we are decades or hundreds of years away from making fully-capable self-replicating probes; a mere eyeblink in the history of the galaxy.

 

[Tunn11]

Self-replicating entities such as bacteria, lichens, ants, and humans are not that difficult to make once they have evolved; they can be manufactured by unskilled labour, after all. The difficult part is creating the blueprints.

I think we are decades or hundreds of years away from making fully-capable self-replicating probes; a mere eyeblink in the history of the galaxy.

But could those probes have evolved and decided to do something other than what they were designed for?

 

[eburacum]

Well, there may be a way to reduce or eliminate the possibility of evolution, a process which could result in so-called 'mission creep' where the replicators devise goals of their own. If we can 'hardwire' all the mission goals of the replicators so that they can respond to any foreseeable situation in a predictable fashion, then the replicators might never develop new goals and remain true to their creator's intentions.

Unfortunately this requires that the creators of replicators which cannot evolve would be forced to anticipate any reasonable set of circumstances beforehand, a requirement which is probably impossible in practice. If you want your replicators to be capable of dealing with a wide range of situations, you either need to incorporate a vast and unwieldy database, or allow them to evolve and adapt; a trait which would almost certainly lead to unintended consequences.

 

[Trevp666]

Yes, we're getting into the realms of the 'gray goo' aren't we.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_goo

And in "The Day The Earth Stood Still" (2008) the nanobots swarm grows bigger as stuff is added to it.

As a side note - it is possible to 3D print a 3D printer.
https://www.sculpteo.com/en/3d-learning-hub/best-articles-about-3d-printing/3d-print-a-3d-printer/

 

[Tunn11]

Yes, we're getting into the realms of the 'gray goo' aren't we.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_goo

Mmmmm! Gray goo, sure we had that as mashed potato at school.

Actually self replicating machines gone wrong, albeit not built for exploration were the focus of Fred Saberhagen's Berserker series.

https://www.fantasticfiction.com/s/fred-saberhagen/berserker.htm

Although it isn't difficult to imagine the exploring self replicators following an; arrive at a system, document it, reduce it to elements, build more probes scenario. However if that was happening wouldn't we see evidence of it.

I also wonder whether some of the objects photographed by assorted telescopes or probes from Earth are not natural. I know this is straying into Martian pyramid territory but we do tend dismiss anything odd looking and while a natural explanation is more likely it doesn't do to dismiss others; Boyajian's star, Oumuamua, Iapetus, etc. spring to mind.

 

[Cochise]

In an infinite universe everything is possible, and everything is - no must be - both true and false. Or it would not be infinite.

 

[Xanatic*]

Even in an infinite universe, if the laws of nature hold then not everything is possible.

I believe those biological self-replicating probes are commonly referred to as space chickens. They could probably be a threat to development of life, by using up many of the resources.

 

[Trevp666]

commonly referred to as space chickens.

Wait....what???

 

[Xanatic*]

I misremembered, astrochicken is the term.

It is true that the expansion of the universe means there are parts we might never see as they are expanding away from us at the speed of light. If the practical limit for space travel is about 10% of the speed of light, that does put limits on which parts of the universe we might get visitors from.

 

[Cochise]

I misremembered, astrochicken is the term.

It is true that the expansion of the universe means there are parts we might never see as they are expanding away from us at the speed of light. If the practical limit for space travel is about 10% of the speed of light, that does put limits on which parts of the universe we might get visitors from.

So what is the allegedly expanding universe expanding in to?

 

[Xanatic*]

That depends on wether there is anything else. We don't know that yet.

 

[Mythopoeika]

So what is the allegedly expanding universe expanding in to?

We will only know that answer once we can get outside the universe.

 

[Cochise]

We will only know that answer once we can get outside the universe.

I'm sorry. These are the sort of questions I like to ask at 3am when I get irritated with whatever dogma (scientific or otherwise) the other drunks are droning on about.

 

[Mythopoeika]

I'm sorry. These are the sort of questions I like to ask at 3am when I get irritated with whatever dogma (scientific or otherwise) the other drunks are droning on about.

It's a perfectly good question. Nobody can answer it, though. Even the sober ones.

 

[Victory]

Does it have to expand into anything?

It is possible that by its very expansion, it establishes a presence where no material presence has previously existed.
Only a spiritual one.

 

[Trevp666]

It is true that the expansion of the universe means there are parts we might never see as they are expanding away from us at the speed of light

Don't exclude the possibility that some sort of 'space warp' way of travelling could be discovered, that would allow travel between distant points instantaneously (or as near as dammit), which would be quicker than the time it would take light to cover that distance travelling through actual space (kind of).

 

[charliebrown]

Panspermia has made all life in the universe the same.

If you don’t have carbon, you don’t exist.

We humans are the “ garden of Eden “ of existence.

There might not be too much other carbon life in the universe.

Our E.T.s have always been here hiding , or there is some weird warping of dimensions.