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Local & Dialect Words

'Quagmire' is a fairly normal word. I think it's just that most people don't live near really boggy areas, so don't need to use it. It's in use a lot around here at the moment. Sigh.

My family version was quackmire. Which I believed until it was corrected in a second year essay :chuckle:
 
There was an old ad on the radio, for what, I can't remember.
A scottish voice was describing a new doohickey as so technologically advanced it was described as "hoopernacky".

I've no idea if this is a some Scots dialect word, but it's a good one.
 
I've no idea if this is a some Scots dialect word, but it's a good one.
(cf 'hoopernacky')
ah hae ma doots... this doesn't sound or look familiar as Scots/Lallans, and if it was a valid word, then it should be.

I haven't tried fiddling with the plosives or swapping the lead vowels, but gein thi DSL an aince-ower disnae look promising either.
Dictionaries of the Scots Language (https://dsl.ac.uk/....pre-and-post 1700 combined)

The word certainly sounds like a bit of atavistic OE... if I was to guess further, what about Appalachian or: possibly Newfoundland English, with Nova Scotia/Cape Breton dialect also being possible contenders (especially if there might've been a semi/pseudo Scottish-sounding voice-over person perhaps being Canadian, as in the 'Scotty Effect')
 
There was an old ad on the radio, for what, I can't remember.
A scottish voice was describing a new doohickey as so technologically advanced it was described as "hoopernacky".

I've no idea if this is a some Scots dialect word, but it's a good one.
Just a thought. Could it have been supernacky with a breath out on the s, so shoopernacky. Think Sean Connery. Still no idea what supernacky is though!

I always liked Bart Simpson's "It's craptacular."
 
Oh WOW......I never heard anything about this until now!! (nb I've been a member of the SLS for nearly 40yrs)

A US teen wrote 27,000 Wikipedia entries in a language they don't speak (namely: Scots/Lallans)

I am utterly-astounded this has only recently come to light! This is both inspired & insane...and highly-Fortean.

For better and worse, Wikipedia is one of the places most of us go to when we want definitive information on a topic. But a recent scandal is highlighting one of the major pitfalls of the platform: not every Wikipedia editor is an expert in their field.

Earlier in the week, a Reddit user named Ultach detailed a discovery they made about the Scots language version of Wikipedia (via The Guardian). Alongside Gaelic, Scots is one of the indigenous languages of Scotland. The thousands of Wikipedia entries written in it make up one of the largest collections of the Scots language you can access online for free. The problem is an American teenager from North Carolina — who can't speak the language — wrote 49 percent of all the entries.

Before Ultach discovered the teen, who had gone by the username AmaryllisGardner, they had been prolific. By 2018, the 19-year-old had written more than 20,000 entries and committed approximately 200,000 edits. They were able to write so much by starting at the age of 12. The majority of entries AmaryllisGardner penned feature the occasional Scots word, often misspelled, and they include no Scots grammatical constructions. It seems AmaryllisGardner used an online translator to graft Scots words onto sentences written in American English.

Also:
https://www.boredpanda.com/american-teen-scots-language-wikipedia

Scottish People Are Enraged After Finding Out That A Large Part Of Scots Wikipedia Is Written By An American Teen Using A Fake Scottish “Accent”
Scots is a West Germanic language variety that has been spoken in Scotland for several centuries. According to Scots Language Centre, “Scots is one of three native languages spoken in Scotland today, the other two being English and Scottish Gaelic.”

Since there are no universally accepted criteria for distinguishing a language from a dialect, people often disagree about the status of Scots and its relationship to the English language. Despite that, Scots is recognized as an indigenous language of Scotland, a regional or minority language of Europe, and as a vulnerable language by UNESCO. Since Scots is considered to be vulnerable, people have been looking for ways to preserve the language and keep it alive. For instance, there’s a Scots language version of Wikipedia where all the articles are written in this particular language. Or so people thought…

Recently, Scots Wikipedia has become a center of concern on the internet after someone noticed that almost every single article on this page is written by one American teenager, AmaryllisGardener.

american-teen-scots-language-wikipedia-5f47836f5a409__700.jpg

“This is going to sound incredibly hyperbolic and hysterical but I think this person has possibly done more damage to the Scots language than anyone else in history,” the Reddit user contemplates. “They engaged in cultural vandalism on a hitherto unprecedented scale. Wikipedia is one of the most visited websites in the world. Potentially tens of millions of people now think that Scots is a horribly mangled rendering of English rather than being a language or dialect of its own, all because they were exposed to a mangled rendering of English being called Scots by this person and by this person alone.”
 
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Best not to glance at it at all if possible

I am being entirely honest and serious when I say that I had no idea the word "outwith" was anything other than standard English (as opposed to
being Scots English).

Wait....is this a wind-up? ....<goes and has a quick check>

Apparently I have been unaware of this my entire life;
Screenshot_20230116_073339_Chrome.jpg


This discovery is utterly weird: I've just done a few other cautious checks, and I can't find any examples of the word being used in any other Commonwealth English varients either!!!

In state schools of the 1960s across Scotland, any use whatsoever of Scots Language in the classroom was absolutely forbidden (vocabulary, grammar, spelling) on pain of a good thrashing with 'the tawse' (a thick leather belt in the form of a short whip) and that had been the case for well-over a century or two.

I received that punishment many times, from the age of 5 to 13, for a range of petty misdemeanours (not specifically or always due to speaking in Scots, that was something we all rapidly learnt to keep just for the playground). "Getting the belt" was something we never questioned- it was like bad weather, something you coped with, but would've been crazy to argue against.

I can only remember seeing a girl ever getting the belt a couple of times (they were more often hit by the teachers with rulers, or just slapped on the back) whereas boys were belted mercilessly on the hands/wrists/bare legs (or for capital crimes, across the partially-exposed buttocks, whilst bent over a desk).

All highly-effective mechanisms to ensure context codeswitching was observed 98% of the time in respect of dialect and language (I don't resent it, because it was very bad at the time: but I probably should)

ps I only discovered recently that the word "shortleet" or the expression "to be short-leeted" was Scots, rather than standard English. I had self-interpreted it to mean a corporate/HR-context version of the words 'shortlist' or 'short-listed'. In fact, I still can't believe it's not a standard universal English language word.

pps perhaps this is all accidental therapy for me (I've certainly never mentioned it to my own children) but, my recollections of "The Tawse" have stirred in me memories of the rumoured (but presumably-real) existence of "The Birch", which was reserved for use by 'The Heedie' (or "thi dominie"...or "thi warden" ie The Headmaster).

This ultimate 'stick of Damocles' was probably just a well-seasoned garden cane, propping-up the office of the school's dark Lord, but when I think back on it, I'm genuinely-frightened by the fact that we (as extended toddlers) believed that this punishment was usually fatal: something we accepted without question.

It was much-more likely that recipients of a birching would've subsequently been expelled, played truant, or run away forever: but in our little 7-yr old heads, we simply believed that some of them were buried behind the shelter shed or under the gym by "the jannie" (ie 'the janitor'....another Scots/Latin word, the job-title ''caretaker" only appeared in Scotland in the 1990s). We knew our parents wouldn't have minded in the least: after all, it was Scotland in the 1960s
 
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In state schools of the 1960s across Scotland, any use whatsoever of Scots Language in the classroom was absolutely forbidden (vocabulary, grammar, spelling) on pain of a good thrashing with 'the tawse' (a thick leather belt in the form of a short whip) and that had been the case for well-over a century or two.

I received that punishment many times, from the age of 5 to 13, for a range of petty misdemeanours (not specifically or always due to speaking in Scots, that was something we all rapidly learnt to keep just for the playground). "Getting the belt" was something we never questioned- it was like bad weather, something you coped with, but would've been crazy to argue against.

I can only remember seeing a girl ever getting the belt a couple of times (they were more often hit by the teachers with rulers, or just slapped on the back) whereas boys were belted mercilessly on the hands/wrists/bare legs (or for capital crimes, across the partially-exposed buttocks, whilst bent over a desk).

All highly-effective mechanisms to ensure context codeswitching was observed 98% of the time in respect of dialect and language (I don't resent it, because it was very bad at the time: but I probably should)

ps I only discovered recently that the word "shortleet" or the expression "to be short-leeted" was Scots, rather than standard English. I had self-interpreted it to mean a corporate/HR-context version of the words 'shortlist' or 'short-listed'. In fact, I still can't believe it's not a standard universal English language word.
As you'll know, Harold Pinter's 1988 play Mountain Language deals with the proscribing of a native language as a method of oppression.
While Pinter had been inspired by the experience of Kurdish-speakers in Turkey, he stated that the process had occurred in many states and cultures, including the British Isles.

When you were a child Scots was like the Mountain Language. It was unvalued and you were punished for using it. Outrageous.
 
In state schools of the 1960s across Scotland, any use whatsoever of Scots Language in the classroom was absolutely forbidden (vocabulary, grammar, spelling) on pain of a good thrashing with 'the tawse' (a thick leather belt in the form of a short whip) and that had been the case for well-over a century or two.
But "tawse" is a Scots word!
 
But "tawse" is a Scots word!

Oh, I would expect that to be the case: the use of the word 'tawse' was restricted just to the scholars outwith the classroom, and by their parents/grandparents at home- it was referred to formally as "the belt" by teachers and formal society.

When you were a child Scots was like the Mountain Language.
I suppose so, but with the additional massive complication that Scots Language & English Language are close linguistic cousins, and that the majority of Scots (even in the 60s) spoke/speak a creole of Scots & English (or perhaps: of English with some Scots)

There's zero doubt that linguistic evolution displays Darwinian selection much faster than its speakers. Scots is ultimately doomed, as is British/Commonwealth English- Universal Standard English (United States English) will always ultimately become the dominant standard form.

Also, I have to be realistic (as does anyone else that speaks English as both a first & second language). Language is there for intercommunication, first and foremost, not to be worshiped or admired upon a shelf.

Politics and globalisation apart, the gradient from familial/tribal argots all the way (up? Down?) to a single common language is as inexorable as it is annoying: and as desirable as it might be detested.
 
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It's not completely unknown elsewhere! I encountered outwith back in the 1980s when I used to visit Edinburgh and Glasgow from London as part of my work.
 
so technologically advanced it was described as "hoopernacky".
...rendered as:
supernacky
...could this have been 'super-techy'?

But wait: the mists are clearing...I've just had a Eureka movement!

The semi-archaic English word 'natty' (as in "he was a natty dresser", smart). With definition as follows:
Screenshot_20230117_060141_Chrome.jpg


I think we may have a winner! My firm contender for the word you thought you heard was/is, therefore, 'super-natty'..!

I'm not going to wager my smallholding, but I will bet a keg of Red Bull that this is the correct answer, and therefore claim my prize (which is 15 seconds of insufferable smugness followed by a cup of tea served to me by Helena Bonham-Carter)
 
There's definitely outwith. It's a fabulous word! Also furth is very useful! And not the same as firth...

We kids had to sing the hymn There Is a Green Hill Far Away -

There is a green hill far away,
without a city wall,
where the dear Lord was crucified,
who died to save us all.


'Without' a city wall puzzled me until it was explained that it here means 'outside of'. 'Outwith' would have made more sense.
I've wondered since if Cecil Frances Alexander (1818-1895) who wrote it had meant to use 'outwith', although she was Irish and not Scottish.

(Cecil Frances Alexander was a good person who helped the poor and co-founded a school for the deaf. She wrote many hymns and carols, often for children, including All Things Bright and Beautiful, Once in Royal David's City.

The slightly gruesome There Is a Green Hill Far Away was also intended for children. Bit grim really.)
 
...rendered as:

...could this have been 'super-techy'?

But wait: the mists are clearing...I've just had a Eureka movement!

The semi-archaic English word 'natty' (as in "he was a natty dresser", smart). With definition as follows:
View attachment 62532

I think we may have a winner! My firm contender for the word you thought you heard was/is, therefore, 'super-natty'..!

I'm not going to wager my smallholding, but I will bet a keg of Red Bull that this is the correct answer, and therefore claim my prize (which is 15 seconds of insufferable smugness followed by a cup of tea served to me by Helena Bonham-Carter)
No, alas not.

When I used the word initially, many came back with such queries, and on further listening, it was almost certainly, 'hoopernacky'.

Bearing in mind, this was a radio ad from at least two decades ago.
 
...'Without' a city wall puzzled me until it was explained that it here means 'outside of'. 'Outwith' would have made more sense.
I've wondered since if Cecil Frances Alexander (1818-1895) who wrote it had meant to use 'outwith', although she was Irish and not Scottish...

It was once not uncommon usage in English. Within the City of London, for example, you have St Botolph without Bishopsgate, St Sepulchre without Newgate (now renamed), St Giles without Cripplegate etc. I believe the 'without' was a definition of the buildings position in relation to the old city walls.

(But my favourite London church name is St Andrew by the Wardrobe - which conjures up the image of a stalker who has been caught red-handed stealing underwear from someone's bedroom.)
 
Isn't 'outwith' also used in legalese? So something being done outwith some boundary or another?

I (not Scots, not even a little bit) have always known the word, but in the same way as something like 'victuals' -as in archaic and only occasionally used as a bit of a joke or when quoting old writings.
 
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