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David Koresh, The Branch Davidians & The Waco Siege [1993]

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Anonymous

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Waco: Rules Of Engagement

I saw the documentary last night, i thought is was brillant. Well, at exposing some of the truths anyway.

Any views on this subject?

Anyone know of anygood sites with info on this
 
Waco

Back when David Koresh's compound was still under seige network television news - I believe NBC - interviewed one of the FBI agents in charge.

"It's time," said the agent, "to show this pretend-Christ who's actually running things."

That bothered me. If Sam Citizen claims to be Jesus Christ, the Federal Government is REQUIRED to remain ENTIRELY NEUTRAL as to the validity or lack of it regarding Sam's claim.

In addition the Feds surrounded the Waco compound with stadium-style speakers and played TIBETAN BUDDHIST hymns at ear-splitting volume 24 hours a day, in an effort to force the Davidians to surrender....or at least to drive them mad (in which latter case they may very well have succeeded).

That would also seem to be a direct violation of many different Supreme Count rulings.

P. S. And, no, I have absolutely no use for David Koresh's theology. Still....
 
Saw another link re the Waco incident here

If you move your mouse cursor over each still without clicking you get a synopsis of the film clip the still represents.

This is one wierd story - why didn't they kill David before things escalated? I would have.

In fact, why do they allow these wierd cults to exist anyway if they harm people or break the law?

A bunch of people living in a giant concrete teapot is one thing, but kidnapping (see David Koresh) or potential statutory rape (see terms and conditions of Raelian cult re female members) is just too much.
 
coldelephant said:
"In fact, why do they allow these wierd cults to exist anyway if they harm people or break the law?"

Because under American law, at least, being "weird' or preaching "crazy" doctrines is not in itself a charge under the law. If Sam Citizen wants to start a cult teaching that he has five heads, but that only the pure of heart can see more than one, he is perfectly free to do so.

Besides, if we outlaw "weird cults" there will be many diverse individuals demanding that Roman Catholics and/or Lutherans and/or Methodists and/or Baptists and/or Quakers and/or Jews and/or Muslims be prosecuted as exactly that, "weird cults." One person's "weird" is another person's "sacred."

One of the problems is that by a time a cult leader finds himself (herself) surrounded by adoring acolytes he (she) starts viewing himself (herself) as ABOVE the law. And it apparently doesn't take all that many followers. (David Koresh's entourage was never all that large.)

But you can't prosecute people for what they MAY do in the future.

If that was the case, you could imprison everybody short on cash as "potential bank robbers."
Click to expand...
 
If I recall correctly a very near neighbor of the waco ranch was Dubyas ranch, when i first heard this I wondered if that might be reason why such extreme predjudice was used in the attack on the compound. Just a thought I'll admit with no real basis
 
OldTimeRadio said:
coldelephant said:
"In fact, why do they allow these wierd cults to exist anyway if they harm people or break the law?"
Click to expand...

Because under American law, at least, being "weird' or preaching "crazy" doctrines is not in itself a charge under the law. If Sam Citizen wants to start a cult teaching that he has five heads, but that only the pure of heart can see more than one, he is perfectly free to do so
Click to expand...


Quite right - but I said if they harm people or break the law?
 
coldelephant said:
OldTimeRadio said:
"Quite right - but I said if they harm people or break the law?"
Click to expand...

But how are you going to TELL that a given cult or church is "harm[ing] people or break[ing] the law" without stationing Government observers inside every place of worship?

Even the most corrupt cult functions quite "normally" until disaffected members begin leaving that cult and revealing what they had themselves witnessed. (And even those people are going to keep really quiet if they themselves participated in illegal activities, even under some sort of "mind control" or brainwashing.)
Click to expand...
 
crunchy5 said:
"If I recall correctly a very near neighbor of the waco ranch was Dubyas ranch, when i first heard this I wondered if that might be reason why such extreme predjudice was used in the attack on the compound. Just a thought I'll admit with no real basis"
Click to expand...

But the Bush family was both out of power and out a favor in 1991.

And I doubt that one American in a hundred had ever heard of Junior.
 
OldTimeRadio wrote;

But how are you going to TELL that a given cult or church is "harm[ing] people or break[ing] the law" without stationing Government observers inside every place of worship?
Click to expand...


How hard is it for the CIA or FBI to spy on anybody really? They're not stupid by a long shot.
 
:?

Well, you know they had illicit automatic weapons. In Texas.
If you were going to arrest everybody in Texas who had a not exactly legal firearm, the jails would be stacked fourteen deep with them.
 
IMHO the bush family is never totally out of power and the Grover's bohemian bunch that they are don't really care what favor they are held in. :twisted:
 
coldelephant said:
"How hard is it for the CIA or FBI to spy on anybody really? They're not stupid by a long shot.
Click to expand...
"

Look, if Sam Citizen goes out and buys an old church building in Wheedledreck, Illinois, sticks up a banner that reads "Amalgamated Acolytes of the Crystal Altar" and opens for business, do you think a big red light starts flashing on some electric wall map at the FBI and/or the CIA?

Now if Sam starts committing criminal actions the FIRST organization to learn about them is most likely going to be the Wheedledreck Police Department, who may very well call in the FBI. (By law, the FBI can only act if Sam's engaging in inter-state commerce, but if Sam buys his printing ink in Indiana or if the mustard for his chuch cafeteria comes from Kentucky, that's enough to satisfy the law.)

For the FBI and CIA to investigate and spy upon every church, temple and cult they'd both have to (at minimum) QUADRUPLE their present size and you'd THINK that Congress would NOTICE that vast increase in payroll.
 
dreeness said:
"If you were going to arrest everybody in Texas who had a not exactly legal firearm, the jails would be stacked fourteen deep with them."
Click to expand...

Back in early 1991 when the Waco compound was still under siege a Texas politician (I believe a state legislator) was quoted pretty much as follows:

"Look, if Federal agents or anybody else run into my church some Sunday morning, firing off their weapons, we're going to return fire. If there's guys trying to kill my wife and my kids, it's my DUTY to protect 'em to the utmost of my ability, and I won't be paying very much attention to what types of uniforms the shooters are wearing."
 
OldTimeRadio said:
For the FBI and CIA to investigate and spy upon every church, temple and cult they'd both have to (at minimum) QUADRUPLE their present size and you'd THINK that Congress would NOTICE that vast increase in payroll.
Click to expand...


I always thought that the reason you put spies around and tapped into phone conversations and kept an eye on cults with wierd names and even newspaper reports on these wierd cults is so that you know where to look and what to look for - in other words to know where to put your resources.

:?
 
The United States has so many "cults with weird names" that I'd be surprised if the "authorities" have ever heard of more than five percent of 'em.
 
An epic three-part series of articles about Waco.

The FBI Agent Who Can’t Stop Thinking About Waco
A quarter century after 82 Branch Davidians and 4 federal officers were killed, Byron Sage is still arguing about what happened.

At 12:32 p.m. on Monday, April 19, 1993, FBI agent Byron Sage placed his right hand on his PA system’s power switch and flicked it from on to off.

Sage knew the small gesture was momentous. For the previous seven weeks, he and 51 other negotiators from various agencies had tried to persuade the Branch Davidian leader David Koresh and his more than one hundred followers to leave their home, a rambling, multilevel structure on a 77-acre property ten miles east of Waco known as Mount Carmel. Now that building was engulfed in fire.

“It’s one of those points in your life that you’ll never, ever forget,” Sage says. “By turning that switch off, it was like I had fifty-one other guys that were looking over my shoulder, watching me say, ‘We failed.’ ”

Nearly two months earlier, Sage had been the first FBI negotiator to arrive on the scene after a disastrous Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms raid left four federal agents and six Branch Davidians dead. Ever since, he’d been the lead negotiator, speaking frequently with Koresh and his deputy, Steve Schneider, cajoling them to cooperate when he could, arguing with them when he felt that he had to, making demands when it seemed nothing else would work. On that final day, when the FBI’s on-scene commander, Jeff Jamar, picked a negotiator to tell the members of the sect that they had to surrender, Sage was the obvious choice.

Sage had begun the morning by instructing Koresh and his followers to exit their building, but no one inside had budged. Over the next few hours, he stood inside a small house that the FBI had dubbed Sierra One Alpha, just across the road from Mount Carmel, as tanklike combat engineering vehicles doused the Davidians with tear gas. Sage kept hoping to see the members of the group filing out toward the road. Instead, shortly after noon, flames began to shoot out of the building. “I went from orders to requests to, ultimately, as the fire spread, pleas,” he says.

First Article Continues (long):
https://www.texasmonthly.com/articles/fbi-agent-cant-stop-thinking-waco/

Second Article:

At Bible Study With David Koresh’s Last Followers
Branch Davidians Clive Doyle and Sheila Martin lost almost everything in the Waco fire, but not their faith.

BY ERIC BENSON, DATE: MAR 26, 2018

https://www.texasmonthly.com/news/bible-study-david-koreshs-last-followers/

Third Article:

The Reporter That Waco Destroyed Has No Regrets
Observing the ATF’s disastrous assault on David Koresh and the Branch Davidian compound should have made John McLemore’s career. Instead, it ruined it. Maybe that was for the best.

BY ERIC BENSON, DATE: MAR 29, 2018

https://www.texasmonthly.com/news/reporter-waco-destroyed-no-regrets/
 

BBC David Koresh Documentary: "Waco: Madman Or Messiah?"​

I recommend this. It's on BBC iplayer, part of the Storyville series.

It's in two parts, there's a lot to digest.

Most striking thing for me was how the cult members come over as very ordinary despite their fanaticism.
 
I know that it's common to pose a question in the title of a documentary, but do they actually present an argument that he was the Messiah?

I'd have to say that the consensus is closer to the other option.
 
Yithian said:
I know that it's common to pose a question in the title of a documentary, but do they actually present an argument that he was the Messiah?

I'd have to say that the consensus is closer to the other option.
Click to expand...
I've been reading an interesting book by one of the survivors (and cult members) of Waco. He still sides pretty pro-koresh, which is certainly an unusual perspective to read (though the idea that the FBI and batf handled the situation badly is hardly news)
 
His followers believed him to be so, well, many of them did.

He certainly thought he was. In the two documentaries you hear plenty of F.B.I. recordings of Koresh himself talking about himself and his beliefs which swiftly lead one to lean more towards the "mad" diagnosis.

It's the devotion of his followers that interested me more.
 
I think the contemporary merchandising aspect ot the Waco Seige has been overlooked.

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(Is this chap a known actor or merely an enterprising local?)
 
The Netflix documentary "Waco: American Apocalypse" will be available to stream from 22nd March.
The Guardian viewed a pre-release version and described it "fascinating and harrowing, telling the tale via the recollections of journalists, Branch Davidians and FBI operatives".
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
The Netflix documentary "Waco: American Apocalypse" will be available to stream from 22nd March.
The Guardian viewed a pre-release version and described it "fascinating and harrowing, telling the tale via the recollections of journalists, Branch Davidians and FBI operatives".
Click to expand...

Impressive first episode - lots of footage and opinions I wasn't aware of before.
Koresh was clearly a sinister and exploitative character and several of his followers seemed to be relishing an apocalyptic shoot-out.
The motives of the rather gung-ho and trigger-happy federal ATF agents though are also very strange.
The footage of the agents running at the compound and propping up a ladder so they could scale the walls struck me as reminiscent of medieval castle sieges.
What turned out to be the largest armed battle in the US since the Civil War remains an utterly surreal event.
Can't say I'm particularly enjoying this series, but it certainly is compelling.
 
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