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The 15-Minute City Conspiracy

Freedom of movement is as important as any other freedom. Traffic jams in cities are self regulating - if they get too bad people won't go there.

London has been having traffic jams since before the car was invented - and I'm sure some would find the by-products of that even more offensive than diesel fumes. Good for the roses though.
 
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The driving and its environmental impact needs to be taken into account in any cost-benefit analysis, including our decisions about commuting and house location. If we absolutely must drive a long distance to get to work, we need to take this extra cost (congestion charges and filtering) into account when applying for work and buying/renting a house. At present employers, home owners and car owners assume that people can drive long distances to get to work, and underestimate the effects of this on the environment and on the wellbeing of the employees.

Ideally there would be a wide range of public transport and personal rapid transport options for people to take in the future; we are some way from this at the moment, but I am confident this will change. Look at the vast increase in public transport options in London, Croydon, Edinburgh, Sheffield, Nottingham, Manchester, and all over Europe. Thinking of this as some kind of international conspiracy is helping no-one.
 
eburacum said:
The driving and its environmental impact needs to be taken into account in any cost-benefit analysis, including our decisions about commuting and house location. If we absolutely must drive a long distance to get to work, we need to take this extra cost (congestion charges and filtering) into account when applying for work and buying/renting a house. At present employers, home owners and car owners assume that people can drive long distances to get to work, and underestimate the effects of this on the environment and on the wellbeing of the employees.

Ideally there would be a wide range of public transport and personal rapid transport options for people to take in the future; we are some way from this at the moment, but I am confident this will change. Look at the vast increase in public transport options in London, Croydon, Edinburgh, Sheffield, Nottingham, Manchester, and all over Europe. Thinking of this as some kind of international conspiracy is helping no-one.
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I'm not sure why you think all this is 'bad'. Yes, public transport could be better - although its brilliant up here on Merseyside. You can't do a cost-benefit analysis on control freaks.
 
kamalktk said:
I may have missed this as this thread's grown to 13 pages, but The Line in Saudi Arabia promises to be car free with all of daily needs within a walking distance of five minutes and everything in maximum of 20 minutes via public transport.
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Mind you- it's a bit different there in comparison to our compulsory purchase laws;

'In October 2022, Shadli, Ibrahim, and Ataullah al-Huwaiti, of the Howeitat tribe, were sentenced to death when they refused to vacate their village as part of the NEOM megaproject'.
 
kamalktk said:
I may have missed this as this thread's grown to 13 pages, but The Line in Saudi Arabia promises to be car free with all of daily needs within a walking distance of five minutes and everything in maximum of 20 minutes via public transport.

And if you dont want to live in in a giant line, you can live in a 400 meter cube.
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These are extremely bad design decisions, as I have mentioned on another thread.
 
eburacum said:
The reason we need to impose congestion charges on motor cars is that we simply can't allow vast numbers of motor vehicles into the centre of our medieval cities.
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No, that's a different argument. It's all very well wanting to protect the centres of historic towns and cities, places like St Albans which still gets choked up by traffic, mostly buses and tourist coaches, could easily have the traffic mostly routed away from the town centre itself but still allow access for deliveries and emergency vehicles.
But (eg) Milton Keynes? Stevenage? Harlow? (or any other 'new town' you could think of) these places do not have a historic/medieval town centre needing protecting from the 'vast numbers of motor vehicles' - if anything they were designed with those vast numbers in mind in the first place.
 
eburacum said:
That isn't right. The reason we need to impose congestion charges on motor cars is that we simply can't allow vast numbers of motor vehicles into the centre of our medieval cities. Places like York ...
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I was recently in Cambridge, which has installed rising bollards to prevent ordinary cars etc. from entering the town centre. I presume that buses, taxis, emergency vehicles etc. have transponders fitted, which automatically cause the obstacles to drop to allow free passage.

I was also recently in York, and used one of its six Park & Ride services. (Cambridge has several also.)

We need to provide alternatives such as this, not automatically allow government to stick its grubby hands into working people's pockets with the blessings of the chattering classes, based on the (IMHO) myth of manmade Warble Gloaming.

maximus otter
 
ramonmercado said:
Ah! Littlemore ward by-election - 2 March 2023. One of the candidates, an independent is opposed to the schemes another opposes the schemes but wants more bus lanes, bike lanes and bike racks.

https://whocanivotefor.co.uk/elections/local.oxford.littlemore.by.2023-03-02/littlemore/

https://candidates.democracyclub.org.uk/elections/local.oxford.littlemore.by.2023-03-02/sopn/
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There was a surge in votes for the Independent candidates in both the City and County Council by-elections, but both seats were held by the incumbent party.
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/anti-ltns-vote-falls-short-123000624.html
 
We live in a village 6 miles from Bath, lost our post office 5 years ago. No library, small Co-Op and a little Pharmacy. We have limited bus service which ends next month. The good news is that we will be getting a new bus service connecting us to other villages who are in a similar posistion so we can get to Bath or Bristol . 75 minutes to get to Bath, 55 to Bristol which is 9 miles away.

I don't see a 15 minute community happening any time soon
 
Mythopoeika said:
15 minute city analogy...
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For it to be an analogy it has to be at least somewhat analogous - and arguments for and against the 15 minute city aside, this appears to me to be the barely coherent ramblings of someone who thinks they've come up with a much cleverer idea than the thing that actually fell out of their head.

There are some persuasive arguments against the concept - I'm not sure this is one of them.

But it's chickens rather than sheep - that, at least, makes a change.
 
Spookdaddy said:
For it to be an analogy it has to be at least somewhat analogous - and arguments for and against the 15 minute city aside, this appears to me to be the barely coherent ramblings of someone who thinks they've come up with a much cleverer idea than the thing that actually fell out of their head.

There are some persuasive arguments against the concept - I'm not sure this is one of them.

But it's chickens rather than sheep - that, at least, makes a change.
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Awww, I thought it would raise at least a slight smile.
 
When someone tries to make an analogy and in doing so clearly demonstrates they don't understand what an analogy is, it doesn't do a lot for their argument.

TLDR: is there any evidence at all for the theory that 15 minute cities is merely a precursor for restricted movements and freedoms?
 
Mythopoeika said:
Awww, I thought it would raise at least a slight smile.
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Fair enough.
I think we can understand where the guy is trying to go with his hen-house analogy, but it doesn't really work, because the hens choose not to go off exploring, due to their limited intellect and for fear of predators. Most humans possess a degree of Wanderlust and enjoy getting out and about away from our homes and dinner tables. For the majority of us, that involves jumping in the car.
If he'd used caged hens, or hens confined to a barn, that would perhaps have worked better to illustrate the conspiracists' take on this.
 
Where I live, it is routine to be sent to neighbouring towns, each in excess of twenty miles, to attend hospital. None of these towns have reliable public transport and I don't drive. Every time someone comes up with a plan which would make my life easier (I.D cards for example), out come the libertarians screaming oppression. Selfish .
 
Rushfan62 said:
Where I live, it is routine to be sent to neighbouring towns, each in excess of twenty miles, to attend hospital. None of these towns have reliable public transport and I don't drive. Every time someone comes up with a plan which would make my life easier (I.D cards for example), out come the libertarians screaming oppression. Selfish .
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Irony, I trust...?

maximus otter
 
I was just reading about Oxfords plans to disable peoples abilities to travel freely around it streets - apparently there are exceptions, including 'HGV's'.
Now, as a UK holder of a full driving licence issued some years ago, I can legally drive a 'tractor unit' for a 40 tonner, but without the trailer on it.
So if I lived in Oxford I would just ditch the car and buy a Scania with a 'crewcab' body.
1679993759723.png
 
Trevp666 said:
I was just reading about Oxfords plans to disable peoples abilities to travel freely around it streets - apparently there are exceptions, including 'HGV's'.
Now, as a UK holder of a full driving licence issued some years ago, I can legally drive a 'tractor unit' for a 40 tonner, but without the trailer on it.
So if I lived in Oxford I would just ditch the car and buy a Scania with a 'crewcab' body.
View attachment 64768
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Until you need to park it somewhere!
Oxford's a bugger to find a parking space and the underground city-centre car park, quite apart from being ruinously expensive, wouldn't have access for anything like that!
Oh and if one of the countless CCTV spy cameras spots one of your wheels crossing the line into a bus lane, you will receive a big fine in the post.
Horrible horrible place!
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
Until you need to park it somewhere!
Oxford's a bugger to find a parking space and the underground city-centre car park, quite apart from being ruinously expensive, wouldn't have access for anything like that!
Oh and if one of the countless CCTV spy cameras spots one of your wheels crossing the line into a bus lane, you will receive a big fine in the post.
Horrible horrible place!
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Been to Oxford several times. Hate the place. Possibly the most divisive and pseudo-feudal town in England. Mind, I didn't like Cambridge much either. Or Leeds.

I do like Liverpool, Chester, Nottingham, Southend, Bangor, Canvey Island, Southport - even Welwyn Garden City :)
 
Trevp666 said:
I was just reading about Oxfords plans to disable peoples abilities to travel freely around it streets - apparently there are exceptions, including 'HGV's'.
Now, as a UK holder of a full driving licence issued some years ago, I can legally drive a 'tractor unit' for a 40 tonner, but without the trailer on it.
So if I lived in Oxford I would just ditch the car and buy a Scania with a 'crewcab' body.
View attachment 64768
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You could be Flitwick's version of Chris Eubank;
CE.jpg
 
Rushfan62 said:
Where I live, it is routine to be sent to neighbouring towns, each in excess of twenty miles, to attend hospital. None of these towns have reliable public transport and I don't drive. Every time someone comes up with a plan which would make my life easier (I.D cards for example), out come the libertarians screaming oppression. Selfish .
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Sounds like when my husband had his recent surgery, and we chose a surgeon who works out of our local hospital.
Well the hospital decided it did not take our medical insurance, so that we would have to travel to another hospital, which is far away from us, just ridiculous.
Suddenly, and fortunately, the hospital started to take our insurance this past February 1st, so he was able to get surgery there.
All the red tape is annoying, would love to know who makes up all these rules.
 
For some of us it's probably incredibly hard to see how this approach would work in practice due to our personal experiences of service provisions, local geography, and poor public transport provision. There are massive discrepancies across the country and I don't think people realise just how stark the difference are. London is like a different country to me!
 
Trevp666 said:
I was just reading about Oxfords plans to disable peoples abilities to travel freely around it streets - apparently there are exceptions, including 'HGV's'.
Now, as a UK holder of a full driving licence issued some years ago, I can legally drive a 'tractor unit' for a 40 tonner, but without the trailer on it.
So if I lived in Oxford I would just ditch the car and buy a Scania with a 'crewcab' body.
View attachment 64768
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Now I know why Chris Eubank drives around in a lorry!
9376296-6666039-Chris_Eubank_poses_with_his_American_style_truck_He_was-m-123_1549298517239.jpg


Edit: Dammit, I really should read all the way to the end of the thread. Beaten to it by Floyd!
 
What an interesting thread. It's especially fascinating in the way it almost immediately developed into a pro- car versus anti- car debate. I've read of the concept now and again in the national press, and the argument almost always goes the same way.

I would have thought that having as much as possible within 15 minutes of your home would be a good thing. Pensioners and those with limited mobility might just find it so much more convenient.

Seems to me that those who cry about their liberties being restricted forget the one fundamental truth about liberty and libertarianism: it is ultimately self limiting.
 
Tanglebones said:
I would have thought that having as much as possible within 15 minutes of your home would be a good thing. Pensioners and those with limited mobility might just find it so much more convenient.
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That would be great if only all those things could be shoehorned into a town centre.

The biggest issue, though, is being forced to stay within a certain locale.
 
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