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Tartaria (Alleged Empire; Alternative History)

Ermintruder

Ermintruder

The greatest risk is to risk nothing at all...
Joined
Jul 13, 2013
Messages
6,206
I'm sure I am not the only forum member to be intrigued by the layered complex ramblings of the YouTuber Barnabas Nagy.

He makes a huge range of very-doubtful outlandish claims (but- he can be interesting at some points). I shall try to paraphrase just some of what he appears to claim:

  • this is really the year 1019
  • the world experienced what he calls "a civilization reset" in the late Victorian era
  • that most history is fake
  • the world suffered a catastrophic 'mud flood', whereafter populations were replaced...with other popuations
  • the world had humanoid giants up until the mid-1850s
  • there was a massive empire he calls 'Tartaria' which was a pre-eminant civilisation prior to the Anglo-American Ascendency (I'm unsure quite where he places this....possibly Russia / Hungary / Austria / Turkey?)
  • He refers to 'Tartar architecture' (basically any ornate large buildings from c1850-1902), and claims immigrants to Australia found cities already 'built by the Tartars' (the same in the mid-west of the USA)
  • He believes the Panama and Suez canals were built before the 1600s
I think it's the sheer detailed claims that he makes, and his curious interpretation of evidence (eg his his unshakable conviction that the total absence of bathers' beach-towels in these 1900 photos, and their excessively-formal attire proves, to him, that these pictures have been staged)

I feel that he, himself, is a Fortean subject of interest. He might (I suspect) be mildly-psychotic, and certainly makes far too many weird and unsubstantiated claims (eg that metal lightning conductors are really collecting atmospheric electricity....which is nearly true, but not they way he means).

All very intriguing. And strange.

And whilst we do need to keep him at sanity's arm's length, there is something about his enthusiastic identification of beach tents really being Freemasonic temples that makes you want to listen to more of what he's saying (nb (listen, not necessarily directly believe)

So caution is advised. But find out more about him.

ps "NO BEACHTOWELS!!!"
pps don't forget the merchandise https://barnabasnagy.threadless.com
ppps never forget that crazy people sometimes tell the truth, even when that is not recognisable
 
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Yes, an excellent find, Ermintruder.

It's very possible that, as you say, he is mentally impaired. Taking his stuff at face value, I would say that he is the most appallingly ignorant human being I have come across.

Paging through his site, though, I begin to suspect that he is just having it on with anyone gullible enough to believe his nonsense. I have said that there's nothing so stupid that SOMEONE won't believe it, and he seems to be testing the validity of that position. And the point of it all, of course, is to peddle his merch.

I would like to believe that it's tongue-in-cheek. Otherwise, it's just depressing.
 
Ermintruder said:
I'm sure I am not the only forum member to be intrigued by the layered complex ramblings of the YouTuber Barnabas Nagy.

He makes a huge range of very-doubtful outlandish claims (but- he can be interesting at some points). I shall try to paraphrase just some of what he appears to claim:

  • this is really the year 1019
  • the world experienced what he calls "a civilization reset" in the late Victorian era
  • that most history is fake
  • the world suffered a catastrophic 'mud flood', whereafter populations were replaced...with other popuations
  • the world had humanoid giants up until the mid-1850s
  • there was a massive empire he calls 'Tartaria' which was a pre-eminant civilisation prior to the Anglo-American Ascendency (I'm unsure quite where he places this....possibly Russia / Hungary / Austria / Turkey?)
  • He refers to 'Tartar architecture' (basically any ornate large buildings from c1850-1902), and claims immigrants to Australia found cities already 'built by the Tartars' (the same in the mid-west of the USA)
  • He believes the Panama and Suez canals were built before the 1600s
I think it's the sheer detailed claims that he makes, and his curious interpretation of evidence (eg his his unshakable conviction that the total absence of bathers' beach-towels in these 1900 photos, and their excessively-formal attire proves, to him, that these pictures have been staged)

I feel that he, himself, is a Fortean subject of interest. He might (I suspect) be mildly-psychotic, and certainly makes far too many weird and unsubstantiated claims (eg that metal lightning conductors are really collecting atmospheric electricity....which is nearly true, but not they way he means).

All very intriguing. And strange.

And whilst we do need to keep him at sanity's arm's length, there is something about his enthusiastic identification of beach tents really being Freemasonic temples that makes you want to listen to more of what he's saying (nb (listen, not necessarily directly believe)

So caution is advised. But find out more about him.

ps "NO BEACHTOWELS!!!"
pps don't forget the merchandise https://barnabasnagy.threadless.com
ppps never forget that crazy people sometimes tell the truth, even when that is not recognisable
Click to expand...
Brilliant, thanks for sharing that.
 
I see Nagy as merely a single symptom of a far more general trend.

In the increasingly chaotic post-postmodern (whatever ...) period the currently hip currency is publicity / celebrity / notoriety. This is both a contributory cause and result of the Net's impact, insofar as the Net now affords anyone a megaphone with global reach.

Whether framed in personal, social, or financial terms, gain is directly proportional to exposure / recognition, and such exposure is facilitated by drawing attention to oneself. Nothing draws the drones like sensationalism - i.e., lying to gloss the mundane or creating lies of whole cloth.

Lies are fiction. The fictive is becoming more popular - and hence more profitable - than the factual. Chuckling at the hearsay and spin-play of the day is more entertaining than researching the truth. Refuting documented history in favor of fanciful fiction sells; filtering the fiction to get at the facts makes the drones' heads hurt.
 
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EnolaGaia said:
Lies are fiction. The fictive is becoming more popular - and hence more profitable - than the factual.
Click to expand...
This sadly is often the case.

As I've openly admitted, I cut my Fortean teeth upon first-edition Von Daniken books, back in the late 60s/early 70s.

However, even back in my short-trousered sandlehood of differential thought, I was never willing for one second to accept radical alternatives just on the strength of their fondly-imagined desirability. Over the intervening decades, we now see an inconceivable rebalancing of relative probabilities, where the fringe is frequently (if not the) mainstream, it is given equal billing.

The History Channel is all ancient astronauts, and every Egyptologist that wants a public presence needs to imply that perhaps, yes, maybe the ancient Egyptians did have electricity. Except they didn't: and cannot be thought to have done, until (if ever) there is actual evidence uncovered, rather than just the wishful thinking of many revisionist historians.

But back to Nagy - I wonder to what extent he is influenced by the New Chronology works of Fomenko? I find some of his timeline claims intriguing, and would love to have them roundly-debunked.

Because even applying just the cui bono precept (yes, publishers and authors do benefit, that's true) I wonder whether the likes of Fomenko actually believe some of the radical claims they make?

The New Chronology is a pseudohistorical theory which argues that the conventional chronology of Middle Eastern and European history is fundamentally flawed, and that events attributed to the civilizations of the Roman Empire, Ancient Greece and Ancient Egypt actually occurred during the Middle Ages, more than a thousand years later.
Click to expand...

One of Fomenko's key claims (which is either just that, ie eminently-disprovable, or somehow a substantive proposition is:

The New Chronology also contains a reconstruction, an alternative chronology, radically shorter than the standard historical timeline, because all ancient history is "folded" onto the Middle Ages. According to Fomenko's claims, the written history of humankind goes only as far back as AD 800, there is almost no information about events between AD 800–1000, and most known historical events took place in AD 1000–1500
Click to expand...

NB I am NOT supporting this theory, I merely quote the summary from Wiki, and am intrigued that such a proposition could be made. Does anyone on the Forum know whether there is the slightest shred possible substance to this extreme revisionism, or is it purely (as @EnolaGaia so deftly puts it)...

EnolaGaia said:
Refuting documented history in favor of fanciful fiction sells; filtering the fiction to get at the facts makes the drones' heads hurt.
Click to expand...
 
Ermintruder said:
... But back to Nagy - I wonder to what extent he is influenced by the New Chronology works of Fomenko? I find some of his timeline claims intriguing, and would love to have them roundly-debunked. ...
Click to expand...

NOTE: I've now established a thread on the New Chronology / Fomenko stuff, and transplanted an excerpt of your post relevant to that topic. If and when I can respond on the Fomenko stuff I'll do it there.

https://forums.forteana.org/index.p...oly-fomenko-a-revised-history-timeline.65747/
 
fascinating. i tried watching one of his videos. donald trump is a zionist shill, as are all politicians and leaders. oh his wife is a 'tranny'. so is bill clinton by the way. trumps rise to power was planned long ago by the illuminati.

i couldn't watch all of it but he does use lots of references and point people to other websites.


I feel that he, himself, is a Fortean subject of interest. He might (I suspect) be mildly-psychotic, and certainly makes far too many weird and unsubstantiated claims (eg that metal lightning conductors are really collecting atmospheric electricity....which is nearly true, but not they way he means).
Click to expand...

i know you don't have to be mentally ill to believe deeply in conspiracies, but i am wondering if this poor bloke had some kind of mental breakdown?

a wee bit of googly shows he has a company called Common Sense UX ltd since 2012. something computery. based first in Hungary then in UK, its listed as still current in the companies house pages, but there is no company website and the company twitter stops in 2017.

or perhaps he stumbled on The Truth whilst designed websites for the new world order?
 
OMG! The UK’s history is fake too!

79680_aad8e7042e38e7daa00bc7756731cde9_large.jpg


Douglas, Isle of Man, ca.1900

great-yarmouth-beach-c1900_g56505.jpg


Great Yarmouth, 1900

maximus otter
 
Ermintruder said:
I'm sure I am not the only forum member to be intrigued by the layered complex ramblings of the YouTuber Barnabas Nagy.

He makes a huge range of very-doubtful outlandish claims (but- he can be interesting at some points). I shall try to paraphrase just some of what he appears to claim:

  • this is really the year 1019
  • the world experienced what he calls "a civilization reset" in the late Victorian era
  • that most history is fake
  • the world suffered a catastrophic 'mud flood', whereafter populations were replaced...with other popuations
  • the world had humanoid giants up until the mid-1850s
  • there was a massive empire he calls 'Tartaria' which was a pre-eminant civilisation prior to the Anglo-American Ascendency (I'm unsure quite where he places this....possibly Russia / Hungary / Austria / Turkey?)
  • He refers to 'Tartar architecture' (basically any ornate large buildings from c1850-1902), and claims immigrants to Australia found cities already 'built by the Tartars' (the same in the mid-west of the USA)
  • He believes the Panama and Suez canals were built before the 1600s
I think it's the sheer detailed claims that he makes, and his curious interpretation of evidence (eg his his unshakable conviction that the total absence of bathers' beach-towels in these 1900 photos, and their excessively-formal attire proves, to him, that these pictures have been staged)

I feel that he, himself, is a Fortean subject of interest. He might (I suspect) be mildly-psychotic, and certainly makes far too many weird and unsubstantiated claims (eg that metal lightning conductors are really collecting atmospheric electricity....which is nearly true, but not they way he means).

All very intriguing. And strange.

And whilst we do need to keep him at sanity's arm's length, there is something about his enthusiastic identification of beach tents really being Freemasonic temples that makes you want to listen to more of what he's saying (nb (listen, not necessarily directly believe)

So caution is advised. But find out more about him.

ps "NO BEACHTOWELS!!!"
pps don't forget the merchandise https://barnabasnagy.threadless.com
ppps never forget that crazy people sometimes tell the truth, even when that is not recognisable
Click to expand...

Haven't watched the videos, but Tartaria is in present day Romania and the clay tablets found in that region are marked with the Vinca script - a candidate for the oldest form of writing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tărtăria_tablets
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
and the clay tablets found in that region are marked with the Vinca script - a candidate for the oldest form of writing
Click to expand...
That appears to have been quite a contentious find, within the world of archeology.

And whether that disk example is an ancient original (or a modern-day forgery), oddly-enough, a full set of possible meanings for the symbols jumped out at me, the instant I saw it. Will give my offered explanation later, after today's frolics.
 
And people thought GeorgeK's claims were odd...?
No comparison imho.

;)
 
Ermintruder said:
That appears to have been quite a contentious find, within the world of archeology.

And whether that disk example is an ancient original (or a modern-day forgery), oddly-enough, a full set of possible meanings for the symbols jumped out at me, the instant I saw it. Will give my offered explanation later, after today's frolics.
Click to expand...
You better post that before it becomes another wonderful proof that can't be fit into the margins a la Fermat.
 
The museum conservators baked them?????
 
this is actually short of a new movement that sprung up recently, actually its not that new, people have been talking about it in russia since at least 2011, but it only arrived to the western world recently
to prove me point there are entire communities dedicated to this stuff online (for example: https://old.reddit.com/r/CulturalLayer/ )
most of their claims are obvious bullshit but now and then they do find some stuff that makes you think hmmmm.... maybe the world is just a little weirder than we think?
either way its a fun thought experiment and its actually fascinating unlike the flat earther community, wich makes me want to bang my head on a iron board
 
Some of Nagy's ideas would make a fairly interesting novel or graphic novel....an alternative empire of Tartaria sounds intriuging.

Some of the ideas are just the usual one-size-fits-all "Blame the Zionists/Illuminati" stuff to be found online.
 
"The New Chronology also contains a reconstruction, an alternative chronology, radically shorter than the standard historical timeline, because all ancient history is "folded" onto the Middle Ages. According to Fomenko's claims, the written history of humankind goes only as far back as AD 800, there is almost no information about events between AD 800–1000, and most known historical events took place in AD 1000–1500 "

I've heard of this before, and, as as my historical interests are focussed on Britain pre Norman conquest, find it very odd . There are gaps, true - no-one seems to have too much idea what was going on in Galloway and Cumbria in that period, but we have histories of kings of Wessex, Mercia and England, plus, coins and artefacts aplenty from the High Saxon period. Has the man never heard of Bede?
 
Didn't Philip k. Dick believe something similar? Except in his version of events, we were living in Roman/early Christian times.
 
AlchoPwn said:
I'm gonna pass this fellow off as having schizotypal personality disorder
Click to expand...
I feel that he may be suffering from a much-more mundane 'condition' which I shall term strident naivity, underpinned by an uber-confident quasi-articulacy.

For example- he lays great stock in how the 1890s/1900s postcards appear (to him) to have been modified using 'Photoshop'..."an app that wasn't available in that era".

This shows a terrifying cargo-culture style / false corollary approach, that implies a vast range of hidden shallows in his personal baseline understandings of science/optics/history/technology.

And yet there *may* be some elements of the impossible that he references elsewhere that are meaningful and useful. Would I treat him as a reliable witness in court? No. Would I treat him as an interesting source of information and interpretations? A cautious yes. Would I consider him to be a dangerous lodestone for the gullible? Sadly, yes I would
 
Unfortunately, cherry picking your "facts" and proclaiming them to be proof of some crackpot notion is nothing new. No need to lollygag around with evidence, we gots da troof! This sort of delusion seems to be more and more popular every day, but maybe it's just the innernets making it look that way.
 
James_H said:
Didn't Philip k. Dick believe something similar? Except in his version of events, we were living in Roman/early Christian times.
Click to expand...
He believed we were in a virtual reality and that all events were pre-determined, as if scripted.
He may have been the first person to propose the VR idea, I don't know.
Edit: The book 'VALIS' goes over some of these ideas. He was convinced that an AI system called VALIS was running a VR in which we were the unsuspecting participants.
 
Regarding beach towels. Terrycloth is first produced in the 1850s. This was used for toiletries but not beach towels. The only people with beach towels prior to that were the Ottomans, and they used linen. So that means that there could be beach towels in these photos, but there are not. So where are the towels? They are in the bathing boxes, where people were using them to dry off. Nobody took to lying on towels much until Coco Chanel, as that would have been considered stupid. Why would you lie on your towel and get them sandy or wet when you need them to dry yourself ? Lying on towels comes about as the result of sunning yourself, and Coco was the person who popularized that (for better or worse), and she doesn't start doing that until the 1920s, ergo, no beach towels. Note that there is a deck chair present in the bottom photo, and the first deck chairs were invented around 1887, so we can use that to provide a rough date for these photos i.e. the top one is before 1887 and the bottom one is after.
 
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Ermintruder said:
For example- he lays great stock in how the 1890s/1900s postcards appear (to him) to have been modified using 'Photoshop'..."an app that wasn't available in that era".
Click to expand...
I wonder if he realises how daft that sounds? Of course no apps would have been available then. But it is possible to extensively modify photos with no apps or even computers. A skill I learned (slightly) in the 1970's.

I think people born in the personal computer era have no idea of what it was possible to do (and what skills we have lost) since widespread access to computers.
 
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The Victorians, though they loved beaches, were not silly enough to get their towels sandy; hence they are out of the way.

And though they loved the seaside, and indeed many seaside activities we still love, they had this thing different to us; they didnt go in the sea much.
 
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