Hallucinogens

[AlchoPwn]

What nobody has mentioned is the value of LSD for mental health purposes, of which it has many. The most pronounced beneficial effect that LSD has is in the treatment of neurosis. Neurosis is, neurologically speaking, strangely like "talent", in that both have intense concentrations of neurons that have formed a complex knot. When this knot is based on a neurotic behavior, the patient is encouraged to deeply consider their neurosis or exposed to the source of it, and the chemicals do their work and break down the connections all but magically. Unfortunately that same is true when artists try to use LSD for inspiration, in that it actively destroys their talent.

The value of LSD is in its ability to generate what is called neuroplasticity, which is the ability to learn new things quickly due to the reapportioning of neurological resources. In effect it makes the brain behave as if it were younger, and allows for the formation of fresh neuronal connections to form. Very low doses of LSD are popular in Silicon Valley, not for the hallucinogenic effects, but for problem solving involving highly complex problems such as designing or debugging computer systems architecture.

LSD is supposed to render a person more open to hypnotic suggestion, but that assumes that they haven't taken an attack dose that will render them all but incompetent. High doses have also been suggested by the US Military for use as a nerve agent, but given that LSD is destroyed by contact with moisture, and the lethal dose is quite small, it was too likely to become merely an expensive poison.

On the other hand, LSD is also very handy for helping someone to experience what Buddhist philosophy calls "undifferentiated awareness". Here is a YouTube clip of Alan Watts to discuss the concept:
Alan Watts on Undifferentiated Awareness

 

[Jim]

Not to downplay the post, but in the 70's I've seen individuals do some dangerous and out outlandish acts while on acid. Personally I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. Although bear in mind US government experiments using illicit substances leaves very much to be desired.

 

[Coal]

Not to downplay the post, but in the 70's I've seen individuals do some dangerous and out outlandish acts while on acid. Personally I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. Although bear in mind US government experiments using illicit substances leaves very much to be desired.

Like everything it's in the dose, which is the problem with 'self medication'.

 

[Kingsize Wombat]

Like everything it's in the dose, which is the problem with 'self medication'.

Absolutely. I also remember Alan Watts talking about how important it is to have a teacher, or shaman, guide you through the experience.

Just popping a random dose and hoping for the best is fraught with danger.

Small doses for therapeutic or ritual purposes could well be beneficial - but I wouldn't mess with it in a random fashion.

 

[Coal]

Absolutely. I also remember Alan Watts talking about how important it is to have a teacher, or shaman, guide you through the experience.

Just popping a random dose and hoping for the best is fraught with danger.

Small doses for therapeutic or ritual purposes could well be beneficial - but I wouldn't mess with it in a random fashion.

I was thinking along the lines of a double-blind professionally organised trial, but sure, a shaman, why not?

 

[AlchoPwn]

Absolutely. I also remember Alan Watts talking about how important it is to have a teacher, or shaman, guide you through the experience. Just popping a random dose and hoping for the best is fraught with danger. Small doses for therapeutic or ritual purposes could well be beneficial - but I wouldn't mess with it in a random fashion.

Whereas I would be shitting-myself-terrified of the concept of some self-appointed witchdoctor overseeing my trip.

 

[Kingsize Wombat]

Whereas I would be shitting-myself-terrified of the concept of some self-appointed witchdoctor overseeing my trip.

It's not so much some self appointed nitwit. Alan Watts was referring to hallucinogens as being used in established rituals, like ayahuasca. The knowledge being handed down over a large number of generations.

By "shaman", I don't mean some new age dude, but the proper meaning of the word.

 

[AlchoPwn]

It's not so much some self appointed nitwit. Alan Watts was referring to hallucinogens as being used in established rituals, like ayahuasca. The knowledge being handed down over a large number of generations.
By "shaman", I don't mean some new age dude, but the proper meaning of the word.

LOL, yes, you have summed up my concerns very handily. We are definitely on the same page.

 

[maximus otter]

...I've seen individuals do some dangerous and out outlandish acts while on acid. Personally I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole.

l once saw the use of hallucinogens likened to throwing a bucket of salt water into the electronics of a telly, then proclaiming the mystical significance of the short-lived effects seen on the screen.

To me, buying some untestable chemistry experiment from a turd up a dark alley, then injecting it into my brain, would be a spectator sport.

maximus otter

 

[AlchoPwn]

l once saw the use of hallucinogens likened to throwing a bucket of salt water into the electronics of a telly, then proclaiming the mystical significance of the short-lived effects seen on the screen. To me, buying some untestable chemistry experiment from a turd up a dark alley, then injecting it into my brain, would be a spectator sport.
maximus otter

I would have thought you might regard the comparatively high level of quality in drugs available illegally, given the lack of any restriction, to be a surprising vindication of free market principles?

 

[maximus otter]

I would have thought you might regard the comparatively high level of quality in drugs available illegally, given the lack of any restriction, to be a surprising vindication of free market principles?

It’s a triumph of capitalism, to be sure. Considering the skyrocketing death rate in the USA from “high quality” fentanyl, I’m not sure that quality is the main issue, though.

It’s bizarre to think that cocaine was freely available in the UK as recently as my mum’s school days, eh?

maximus otter

 

[INT21]

And opium was used to quieten babies.

But we have moved on. However, we seem to be going backwards now.

AlchoPwn'

You are right to be worried.

After all, someone had to put the 'sham' in shaman.

 

[FrKadash]

Interesting recent interview with Wade Davis,

Wade Davis on the Popularization of Ayahuasca and the Climate Crisis
Shelby Hartman
3 weeks ago
Wade Davis, anthropologist and best-selling author, known for his work among indigenous communities in the Amazon, has written on topics ranging from Haitian voodoo to our current climate crisis. His research has taken him to every continent – including a recent trip to Antarctica – documenting cultures, plants, and the world at-large. He speaks openly about the influence entheogens have had on his life – informing his understanding of cultural relativism, inspiring how he writes, his use of language, and his very sense of the natural world.


Davis first took ayahuasca as a student in the 70s, before arose what is now a booming ayahuasca tourism industry in places like Iquitos and Pucallpa. He also, over the past four decades, has participated in traditional ceremonies with indigenous communities, learning about how they think and understand the sacred ayahuasca vine, among other plants. He’s spent much of his life talking about the reverence we must have for these plants and how indigenous people interpret them, which he describes as “completely” different from how most North Americans and Europeans do.

http://realitysandwich.com/323803/w...o525i0EbFMqdua65JvSH1IMxbCPM2SO-mzuLyIrKVWXPE

 

[AlchoPwn]

It’s a triumph of capitalism, to be sure. Considering the skyrocketing death rate in the USA from “high quality” fentanyl, I’m not sure that quality is the main issue, though. It’s bizarre to think that cocaine was freely available in the UK as recently as my mum’s school days, eh? maximus otter

Yeah, purely a tangential point, but my inner economist is always surprised by details like that.

 

[maximus otter]

Yeah, purely a tangential point, but my inner economist is always surprised by details like that.

If you haven’t read Freakonomics, stop what you’re doing right now and buy it.

maximus otter

 

[AlchoPwn]

If you haven’t read Freakonomics, stop what you’re doing right now and buy it.
maximus otter

I am actually acquainted with "Stephens, Levitt and Dubner", after a mutual friend introduced us at Harvard. While we haven't corresponded in a very long time we had a very (hopefully mutually) productive chat about Economics and Social Psychology over lunch once. They're great guys and the sort of nerds I aspire to be, despite being older than them.

 

[Coal]

If you haven’t read Freakonomics, stop what you’re doing right now and buy it.

maximus otter

Definitely. The second one is also well worth reading.

 

[Comfortably Numb]

Anyone had a trip with with prevalent visions of the, 'Paisley pattern' and wondered WTF is that all about?

 

[Cochise]

What nobody has mentioned is the value of LSD for mental health purposes, of which it has many. The most pronounced beneficial effect that LSD has is in the treatment of neurosis. Neurosis is, neurologically speaking, strangely like "talent", in that both have intense concentrations of neurons that have formed a complex knot. When this knot is based on a neurotic behavior, the patient is encouraged to deeply consider their neurosis or exposed to the source of it, and the chemicals do their work and break down the connections all but magically. Unfortunately that same is true when artists try to use LSD for inspiration, in that it actively destroys their talent.

The value of LSD is in its ability to generate what is called neuroplasticity, which is the ability to learn new things quickly due to the reapportioning of neurological resources. In effect it makes the brain behave as if it were younger, and allows for the formation of fresh neuronal connections to form. Very low doses of LSD are popular in Silicon Valley, not for the hallucinogenic effects, but for problem solving involving highly complex problems such as designing or debugging computer systems architecture.

LSD is supposed to render a person more open to hypnotic suggestion, but that assumes that they haven't taken an attack dose that will render them all but incompetent. High doses have also been suggested by the US Military for use as a nerve agent, but given that LSD is destroyed by contact with moisture, and the lethal dose is quite small, it was too likely to become merely an expensive poison.

On the other hand, LSD is also very handy for helping someone to experience what Buddhist philosophy calls "undifferentiated awareness". Here is a YouTube clip of Alan Watts to discuss the concept:
Alan Watts on Undifferentiated Awareness

I'm sorry, but you have got to be kidding. I did a fair amount of acid back in the day and it is not in any way conducive to problem solving or anything else other than maundering on about the pretty lights. And sooner or later you WILL have a bad trip, and if you are remotely sensible you never touch the stuff again.

 

[Cochise]

Anyone had a trip with with prevalent visions of the, 'Paisley pattern' and wondered WTF is that all about?

Yes.

 

[Comfortably Numb]

Yes.

OK... fancy looking up the explanation?

Presuming, if I may, the affirmative, always puzzled by this: no obvious relationship, yet there has to be one...

Shall we go there, then?

Of course!

So let's see what enlightenment awaits..

'The Math Behind the Patterns People See on Psychedelics'

https://ultraculture-org.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/ultraculture.org/blog/2014/01/23/math-behind-patterns-people-see-psychedelics/amp/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCCAE=#referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://ultraculture.org/blog/2014/01/23/math-behind-patterns-people-see-psychedelics/


Now that looks interesting!

 

[Cochise]

I always found there there was an odd relationship between colours - lime green + purple = silver. There was maroon as well. I had one trip in my tent which had a sewn in ground sheet. I could see a whole world in each square of the woven materials.

The problem with acid is that when the rush hits whatever thought you have in your mind tends to stay with you for at least three quarters of the trip. Unfortunately after a bad trip your thought tends to be ' I hope this is a good one' which of course cements the bad images in your mind.

On my bad trip I thought our Artexed ceiling had turned in to colossal pastry cutters that were chopping me up to be baked. Not nice.

 

[Jim]

I'm sorry, but you have got to be kidding. I did a fair amount of acid back in the day and it is not in any way conducive to problem solving or anything else other than maundering on about the pretty lights. And sooner or later you WILL have a bad trip, and if you are remotely sensible you never touch the stuff again.

Now that Cochise has broken the ice, and summed it up quite nicely I'll add.
I dropped acid several times (the 70's) On 1 occasion I distinctly remember believing that moving cars were living animals. I could physically see music and noise as well, to name a few of the out worldly - disturbing effects of the sugar cube taken. I wasn't right in the head for at least 3 days afterwords.
Another occasion while partying with rather rough group that was both tripping and drinking. Well the watering hole "tavern" was trashed and people were seriously injured.
I even have trouble believing these things occurred, but they did.

 

[AlchoPwn]

I'm sorry, but you have got to be kidding. I did a fair amount of acid back in the day and it is not in any way conducive to problem solving or anything else other than maundering on about the pretty lights. And sooner or later you WILL have a bad trip, and if you are remotely sensible you never touch the stuff again.

Just to clear this Cochise. I am NOT talking about 100mic dosages and higher but 7 mic dosages or doses between 5 and 10mics that are not even conducive of proper hallucinations. These are FAR lower than anyone uses recreationally.

 

[Mythopoeika]

On my bad trip I thought our Artexed ceiling had turned in to colossal pastry cutters that were chopping me up to be baked. Not nice.

Mmmm. These 'Cochise' Danish pastries taste pretty good...

 

[Cochise]

Just to clear this Cochise. I am NOT talking about 100mic dosages and higher but 7 mic dosages or doses between 5 and 10mics that are not even conducive of proper hallucinations. These are FAR lower than anyone uses recreationally.

Of course I have no idea what dosages we were taking - back then it was mainly blotters and it was a matter of luck how much got dripped on your bit of card. I also understand poison is in the dose. But nevertheless I can't see how removing a disturbed person even further from reality can possibly help.

 

[Comfortably Numb]

Early '70s, tabs of the legendary, 'Strawberry Fields' and we all went to the massive Botanic Gardens in Glasgow.

The exotic, 'hot houses' with world-wide species, were something else!

Often wondered if the, 'chemical formula' therein, somehow made such a difference. 'No Way', as such, you could have a bad trip on Strawberry Fields and nothing later ever came close...

Thinking about it now... yea, how, 'pure' is what you're taking- surely that's an elemental factor - same as any other drugs on the market these days?

 

[AlchoPwn]

Of course I have no idea what dosages we were taking - back then it was mainly blotters and it was a matter of luck how much got dripped on your bit of card. I also understand poison is in the dose. But nevertheless I can't see how removing a disturbed person even further from reality can possibly help.

Crucially, the action of LSD is on neurons and neuronal connections. It breaks the chemical bonds and allows new connections to form. Now this can be pretty bad in large doses, as the difference between a dangerous obsession and a well honed skill are not obvious to this chemical action, as both are seen as neuron tangles, that are resolved into a "smooth pathway". This is great if you have OCD, as it goes away. This is disasterous if you are a brilliant artist or craftsperson as your talent goes away too. On the other hand, the very low doses that I am suggesting are only enough to generate neuroplasticisty LINK. Originally LSD was used for treating obsessional disorders with great success until it was considered as a weapon during the Cold War, then used to dose the counter-culture in response to their communist leanings, and eventually scheduled when the counter-culture decided they liked it.

 

[Swifty]

I'm sorry, but you have got to be kidding. I did a fair amount of acid back in the day and it is not in any way conducive to problem solving or anything else other than maundering on about the pretty lights. And sooner or later you WILL have a bad trip, and if you are remotely sensible you never touch the stuff again.

One thing I do remember acid doing was to act as a broom for the mind .. so a week or so after the trip, you'd reprogrammed yourself and things that had previously been bothering you didn't seem important anymore. I also remember someone telling me that there was no such thing as a bad trip, only a mad trip. It's all about the condition's acid is dropped under and the people you're with.

 

[Coal]

I'm sorry, but you have got to be kidding. I did a fair amount of acid back in the day and it is not in any way conducive to problem solving or anything else other than maundering on about the pretty lights. And sooner or later you WILL have a bad trip, and if you are remotely sensible you never touch the stuff again.

^this^