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Advertising will soon own your soul

Q

Quetzelcoatl

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
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Aug 2, 2002
Messages
476
You could argue it already does, making you want endless things then when you get them, making you want new ones, but thats another thread

Soon advertising industry will own your soul and you’ll welcome it with open arms. As usual

It will be sold to you as a great leap forward in the battle against crime. Shoplifting adds to your shopping bills, right? So the big stores constantly tell us. Well the latest innovation will prevent shoplifting, so lower your bills and prevent crime. Happy happy happy

The truth is rather different

You’ll have heard of the plan to put chips into credit cards to prevent fraud? This technology will be with us within 12 months

Currently millions are being spent on an advertising industry, big brand and supermarket owner funded research project at MIT

The plan is to put a smart chip into everything you buy, a bit like the current bar code. These can be tracked in-store

So Sid the Shoplifter nicks a batch of disposable razors (currently the most nicked item in the UK) and walks out the shop without paying

The security system knows he has done it. The cameras and electronic chip tracking system can track him through the store. Recording his image from many angles, pass on video to police, ‘Youre nicked son’. No more shoplifting

What they are not telling you, is they dont give much of a toss about shoplifting. Thats a side benefit. The real benefit is owning your soul, like this

You give me all your shopping receipts for a month and I’ll build a frighteningly accurate picture of you, your family, lifestyle, values, and politics. You buy the Guardian, organic Fair Trade food, low fat yoghurt and natural beauty products but impulse buy chocolate at the checkout? You are a left leaning woman with a social conscience who watches her weight and cares about her body, is stylish but is a sucker for a treat. A crude example, the real thing is a precise science.

Supermarkets have had these profiles for years and use them to indicate buying trends. They are not personal because the data protection act will not allow Supermarkets to share individual data, much to the chagrin of the advertising industry

Put the chips in credit cards and in products together and Bingo.

They dont need to know your name, address and phone number. They now own your soul

You walk into Tesco and a personal message comes over the speakers...”New Fair Trade organic bananas just in on aisle B”. There are plans to install audio visual on supermaket trolleys – very expensive but its in the post

They will know when you buy, in what order, where and when

Walk into any retail premises and the system will identify you and automatically decide what you want. Our Guardian reader goes to buy a car? Suddenly the salesman goes on about low carbon emissions and recyclable plastics, fair wages policy and stylish looks. Because even though he doesnt know her name, he owns her soul

The chip in your card, linked through a universal database to the chips in everything you buy means your buying patterns can be traced over years, decades. And changes predicted before you are even aware of them

The police and security services have plans of their own for this technology, but thats for another day

Happy Shopping
 
good point Niles

if you only ever shop with cash, the system will also know this. What sort of people, other than unemployed, pay for their weekly shop in cash? Possibly criminals?

and the supermarkets hate cash. It costs them money to process and poses a security risk. Why do you think they are so keen on 'Cashback'?

there really is no escaping this one

Phase 2 involves the possibility of tracking the supermarket chips (not the ones on your cards) via satelite. Buy the bacon and we know where you live
 
The system would fall down with me as do the shopping for several different people and have been known to buy such things as The Guardian, The Daily Mail, adult nappies, baby food, nictotine patches, ciggaretes and... well, you get the picture.

I also always pay in cash - often in lots and lots of coins :)

I'd probably be locked up as a loony!

Jane.
 
I am not worried!

The reason I'm not worried is the same as why I don't crap my pants at some of the more insidious legal changes as regards powers to monitor my communication activity. Its all a balance of benefit and cost (e.g. man power).

In this instance - we are talking about a commercial business enterprise. Consequently, we are talking about the possible uses of any developments in technology being subject to a cost/benefit equation.

The costs of such detailed study and, particularly monitoring, are astronomical.

Do you really expect cameras to track every person through a store. Think about it? Say, my local Tesco Extra could have something in the region of 500 people shopping at any single moment - how many cameras are involved? How many people are watching that person? The chip in a credit card can't do the actual input between a camera seeing me and the data from my actions and interests when walking around the shop.

As for the idea that, when I walk into Tesco I will hear an announcement offering goodies for cheap that appeal to my tastes. How many people walk simultaneously into a large supermarket at once? There would have to be such rushed and garbbled messages - that it wouldn't work.

Again, the car buying example...... At what point in the transaction would the salesman know who I am? They won't see my credit card until I am paying for the car. They would obviously find out who I am once looking for a credit arrangement - but again, we are past the point of sale. So, how do they access my records whilst doing the old sales patter?

Now, I'm not denying that such things are possible - just that the cost/benefit of making these things workable is a negative. It won't get like that in my lifetime.

The car example is the most interesting - a good salesmen will tap into your psyche and utilise their assumptions of your interest in a far better way than the products of some enormous database of information. Perhaps the message needs to be - never trust a salesman. If they are good enough - they already "own your soul"
 
Can someone explain why this is a bad thing?

My shopping habits are certainly not my soul. And to be quite honest more apropriate targeting of adverts and products will be most welcome.
 
I must agree that Madison Avenue (the USA capital of advertizing) is in the process of owning you cradle to grave. The very definition of advertizing is to "create the desire", to buy, to own, to have more than the next guy. And as long as we stay focused on what we want, what we need, what we have, we won't have to pay any attention to what the military industrial big business complex is doing to the rest of the world. While I do agree that there are long standing anti western sentiments in parts of the world, western involvment in other parts of the world are strictly on and economic baisi...i.e., what can we sell them or more importantly, what do they have that we need and how important is it to us to protect our economic interest.
 
Bilderberger said:
I am not worried!
Click to expand...

No no. The cameras really are only for security purposes. Forget them unless you are a shoplifter. Its the chip and chip recognition hardware / software that does all the work

And yes, the investment is massive. Tens of millions of dollars to date

The system that tracks the product chips through the store will also track the chip in your card. They dont need to know your name, simply identify you as customer 2874547/hhjs6/9124473 or whatever. But they know a customer with your buying pattern is instore

As to highlighting products instore? When the system identifies say, 10 people instore who buy kids nappies, an announcement comes over the speakers with offers for baby products. Or you buy top price yoghurts? Get to the chiller and top cold pot snacks suddenly light up? Import lager? Whatever you buy, offers will be highlighted as you approach that section

The car example? The salesman would have a customer profile on his computer the minute you walk through the door with your credit card in your wallet. He / she wont know your name. But they will know if you like a beer, watch DVDs at home, have kids and how many / what sex, what age, if youre married or single.
 
Are there chips on every product as well? Would put an end to all those Tesco Value products - would add too much of a marginal cost? Shurely?

Thats an awful lot of chips. Remember the cost/benefit.

Now, imagine this scenario. When I go to buy a car (or any other "sit-down chit chat" type purchase - I leave my credit card (with life-holding info.) at home.

Then what?

We have a salesman. And, like I say, a good salesmen will tap into your "soul" better than any amount of info. on my past purchases. We should already be scared!?!?!? Not really - its just life - has happened for as long as anyone has tried to batter anything.

Edwards question is very valid. I steered away from that whole area as it opens up another debate. I remember starting a thread talking about why some people refuse to use reward cards (which some people do - for "moral" reasons). No one actually gave a valid reason - it just turned into a thread of people discussing the benefits of reward cards!
 
ethelred said:
good point Niles

if you only ever shop with cash, the system will also know this. What sort of people, other than unemployed, pay for their weekly shop in cash? Possibly criminals?

and the supermarkets hate cash. It costs them money to process and poses a security risk. Why do you think they are so keen on 'Cashback'?

there really is no escaping this one

Phase 2 involves the possibility of tracking the supermarket chips (not the ones on your cards) via satelite. Buy the bacon and we know where you live
Click to expand...

I pay cash, always, and I work like a ****** for my money mate, proper sweat of the brow work, not sat on my arse in some air conditioned office whining about the stress of it all while leaving messages on this board! Snotty twats!

And advertising is the bane of my life. I'm sick of 'em all over the TV, on my phone and creeping into just about everything on the net. I'm spammed under with e-mail from the scurrelous bastards and IMO it's time we called a halt. God knows how though! I reckon someone should invent a chip you can wear that will feed the bastards false information when you walk in their stores. :p
 
Why is this bad?

Presumably the information held on the card is subject to the data protection act and therefore requires MY permission for it to be shared. I know that the credit card companies cannot share your purchases with anyone so how would the laws change to make this such a revolution. The only shops that would benefit are those which you've shopped in before and anything that helps me shop quicker is in my book good.

As for knowing where you are all the time, do you have a mobile phone?
 
Forty2 said:
I pay cash, always, and I work like a ****** for my money mate, proper sweat of the brow work, not sat on my arse in some air conditioned office whining about the stress of it all while leaving messages on this board! Snotty twats!
Click to expand...

:D
 
ethelred said:
good point Niles

if you only ever shop with cash, the system will also know this. What sort of people, other than unemployed, pay for their weekly shop in cash? Possibly criminals?

and the supermarkets hate cash. It costs them money to process and poses a security risk. Why do you think they are so keen on 'Cashback'?

there really is no escaping this one

Phase 2 involves the possibility of tracking the supermarket chips (not the ones on your cards) via satelite. Buy the bacon and we know where you live
Click to expand...

You mean I won't be able to buy messages without a credit card? How stupid are these people?
 
Edward said:
Can someone explain why this is a bad thing?

My shopping habits are certainly not my soul. And to be quite honest more apropriate targeting of adverts and products will be most welcome.
Click to expand...

indeed so

but from your shopping habits it is possible to extrapolate your lifestyle, politics, views and beliefs

as to cost benefit, the thing will be funded by ending shoplifting which costs millions per year

data protectiuon act? Only enforcable if they swap your personal details. With this little gem they dont need to. Blind identification. But they're working on tweaks to the data protection act through EU as we speak

Forty2 said:
I pay cash, always, and I work like a ****** for my money mate, proper sweat of the brow work, not sat on my arse in some air conditioned office whining about the stress of it all while leaving messages on this board! Snotty twats!
Click to expand...

nobody in advertising whines about stress, son. Sitting on yer arse in an air conditioned office earning shedfulls of money for 'avin a concept while posting on MBs aint stress inducing. Dont you worry

And advertising is the bane of my life. I'm sick of 'em all over the TV, on my phone and creeping into just about everything on the net. I'm spammed under with e-mail from the scurrelous bastards and IMO it's time we called a halt. God knows how though! I reckon someone should invent a chip you can wear that will feed the bastards false information when you walk in their stores. :p
Click to expand...


advertising pays for the TV you complain about it being on. And your newspaper. Cancel the ads and see what these things cost you. But if it pisses you off you could always hire MIT... no, hang on... tsk ... too late

I am not defending this technology, merely reporting it
 
ethelred said:
but from your shopping habits it is possible to extrapolate your lifestyle, politics, views and beliefs
Click to expand...

This is bad because?
How accurate can these extrapolations possible be?
Other than retailers who would be interested in this information?

This argument kinda remids me of Mary Whitehouses rants about the state of TV in the eighties. Those that do not want to take part and reveal info to 'the man' can very easily opt out. I truely believe it will help rather than hinder my retail experiences.

Have you got any references to the changes in the Data Protection act?
 
There was a quite comprehensive article in 'the Guardian' about a month ago, about loyalty cards and tracking chips.

Here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,999866,00.html
and part 2:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,999932,00.html

This bit amused me as I think they've got my number as a cheapskate;
Scratch away the happy-shopping patina of these cards, then, and you wonder if a covert aim is segregation. Stone explains a possible motivation behind any loyalty scheme: "In every sector, the top 20% of customers give 80% of the profit." No retailer would call the mechanics of their loyalty scheme discriminatory, but here, according to Stone, is how it might work. "They set a level [of service] that any customer will get, known as the 'vanilla treatment', and the more valuable customers will get even better treatment." So if, for example, you are a "cherry-picker", someone who buys all the loss leaders and nothing else, a Tesco or a Sainsbury's might conclude that you would perhaps be better off in Lidl. They might then raise the price of the loss leader, or just stop stocking the goods only cherry-pickers buy. More likely, however, they will actively discourage the purchase of these basic goods by placing them somewhere obscure and with little shelf space. "That way," says Stone, "you don't have social exclusion, but at the same time you make sure you are focusing on selling the most profitable products to your best customers."
Click to expand...

They think they can hide them, Ha! I laugh at them, I who can find 'Fortean Times' wherever WH Smug have decided to hide it this month. :rolleyes: :D
 
I've a fealing that some companys are so dimwited and waseful that they would send out their junk mail to you if they get the slightest sniff that there maybe an outside chance that if hell frose over whist a pig did a barrel roll over head you might buy their product.

eg. acording to his credit card, he's been on holiday, lets swamp him with timeshare offers or he has a telphone line, lets swamp him with AoL cd's.
 
Edward said:
This is bad because?
How accurate can these extrapolations possible be?
Other than retailers who would be interested in this information?
Click to expand...

its bad in my view because it contravenes the data protection act at least in spirit.

you dont mind advertsers having your data? Fine. It will actually protect you from unwanted junk mail & spam. But what if the proposed ID cards carry compatible chips? This means police and security services (and Council tax collectors, Bailiffs and others) will know every time you walk into a shop or mall

as to how accurate a picture can be drawn from your buying habits? Very, even with current technology

and these chips are not something you can 'buy out of'


Have you got any references to the changes in the Data Protection act?
Click to expand...


its more a soft lobbying process. Advertisers are not daft enough to go head to head with the EU over data protection. But they are trying to skew legislation in their favour.

an extract from a recent EU DP Directive...

"There is widespread industry concern regarding the need to ensure that bureaucratic rigidity is not introduced or accentuated as a result of national interpretation and the resulting legislation..."

and which concerned industry would that be then?
 
Surely (oh sorry I forgot I'm not supposed to call you that in public) there should be greater concerns over the amount of television that a person watches and the content therein. If Madison Avenue or your government or anyone wants to "own your soul" they will have a far easier time if you watch television on a regular basis. The light patterns of television have long been proved to be a hypnotic, and once in a state of light trace (the state most people unknowingly watch television) you are very susceptible to advertising, slanted news stories, government announcements, et cetera.

Part of the reason I don't watch TV. The other reason is that 99% of it is crap.

I'd worry if I bought things via the internet, and/or watched cable television, both of which are very easily monitored. There's talk of customized banner ads on large websites, like Amazon and Ebay...the banners you see will be tailored to your "consumer profile", created in part by your televison watching habits, in part by your buying habits and in part by the patterns of your web surfing. Take a look at the banner ads the next time you go on one of your bookmarked websites. Do they seem strangely
"personal"?

Me, I only buy sex toys on the internet, so I guess maybe someone knows a lot about my love life :rofl:
 
I strongly suspect the advertising industry would not be alone in wanting your months till reciepts :)
 
Anything which can be abused, will be abused

Your ex-wife knows about that weekend in Aspen.

Your present wife knows about that Hermès scarf you bought in Paris.

Hackers can access to all of your personal information, including credit card numbers. They will soon know about every stick of gum you buy.

You employer would dearly like to know what it was you bought at the Headshop.

Your prospective employer wants to know if you are a solid corporate type. In the Fifties they told, albeit indirectly, what to wear, what street to live on, what car to drive. Now they want to be sure you aren't watching Gay T.V., that you buy your stockings at their sister corporation, and that you don't put the milk carton back in the fridge empty.

They know more about you than you can possibly remember now, tomorrow, they will know more about you than you can possibly know about your own private thoughts.

Combine this with current and future brain research: activity in the amygdala when he is looking at our mortgage brochures--this man is a credit risk, even though the numbers look good and he appears confident.

I thought Monsanto breeding plants that can take ten times as much pesticide (hang the environment! our patents are running out) was bad, but imagine doing that to all of the things that governments, corporations, and yes, private parties such as the Vegans, try to do to your mind.

Mr. Brown, we're from the Vegans against Earthlings, and we would like to have a word with you about that Veal Scallopini you had for dinner on Thursday last.
 
Have any of you guys read The Tunnel Under The World, it's quite a strange pre-cyberpunk story about people whose lives are literally owned by an advertising company.

And if you have can you tell me who wrote it? I read it in some anthology cira 1980 and can't remember the author though sometimes I wonder if it might have been PK Dick.

Marie
 
It's worse than you think. The chips will be in items of clothing, enabling the supplier and retailer to keep track of their goods on the way to individual shops. Since the chips will have all the details about the item, linked up with your loyality/credit card they'll know your size, favorite colour and the fact that you're a man who will buy underwear for your wife.

However, these chips don't switch off after the item has been bought. In fact because they are passive they will live for ever more. So when you return to the shop wearing the clothes, the shop will be able to track exactly which part of the shop you spend most of your time in, and the fact that you wear your wife's underwear.

The fear is who else will 'listen' out for these tags? Will rival shops 'listen' to your clothes? Will the security services 'listen' to people entering the tube network, buildings? Will your clothes say it all? You bet your bottom dollar they will.

With mass production the chips will drop in price to less than a penny each, so expect to find them in clothes to start with, and then milk cartons, juice bottles and ,yes, the bacon you carry home.

To win, pay in cash and cut off all labels (wasn't there someone who said that a few years ago and everyone thought they were a nutter?)
 
There is a huge gap between what these technologies promise
and what they actually deliver. If they worked efficiently they would
be dangerous - maybe. The reality is usually a complete joke.

Far from arising from some sinister cartel of the powerful, these
systems are the wares of modern snake-oil sellers, feeding the
delusions of the big retailers with the promise of an ever more
accurate way of understanding their markets.

We have been promised more intelligent junk mail for years but
despite leaving a paper trail of purchases a mile high, I never
receive anything remotely interesting.

I know a fair number of obedient consumers who are impressed by
invitations to special events etc. They can enjoy the privilege of
paying for their Good Customer status. No system of
supposed incentives could persuade the rest of us that shopping isn't
mainly about saying no! :p
 
I'm sure a minute in the microwave would fry any of these tracking chips ;)
 
Personally I don't think this technology would be cost effective enough to reach truly scary levels (at least not in the UK).

I see Ethelred's point though. This technology defines who you are, and potentially how others treat you. It doesn't matter if people know which brand of corn flakes you buy or how many pints of milk you drink, but they know more stuff than that - how many condoms you use, for example (therefore knowing times when you're sexually active), or whether you buy the Gay Times or the Morning Star, and labelling you a homosexual or a commie in one fell swoop.

And how many times have you bought a present for someone off Amazon and it's screwed up your recommendations? You'll only have to go shopping for your granny and you're suddenly an old lady, or buy your younger relatives Christmas presents and you're a Gareth Gates fan. That's why it won't work.

You'd only have to pop in for a Daily Mail for the housebound next door neighbour every day and you're suddenly a blue-rinsed Tory chasing imigrants with a pitchfork!
 
Adverts work in the opposite direction on me; if companies say something is good, I don't buy it, 'cos it's an advert, and adverts are lies.
I like to buy things that I have never seen advertised, just to annoy them.
I don't use a credit card and never will.
 
Evilsprout said:
Personally I don't think this technology would be cost effective enough to reach truly scary levels (at least not in the UK).
Click to expand...

Coming to a store near you soon!

http://www.nocards.org/
RFID chips, tiny tracking devices the size of a grain of dust, can be used to secretly identify you and the things you're carrying--right through your clothes, wallet, backpack, or purse. Have you already taken one home with you?

http://www.epic.org/privacy/rfid/

The cost per electronic tag now stands at about 30 cents apiece, but is expected to fall to as little as three cents in the next three years. RFID tags will probably not become pervasive until the per chip cost dips below one penny..

Tracking tires: Tire manufacturer Michelin recently began fleet testing of a radio frequency tire identification system for passenger and light truck tires. The RFID transponder is manufactured into the tire and stores tire identification information, which can be associated with the vehicle identification number (VIN). Critics argue the tags could ultimately become tracking devices that can tell where and when a vehicle is traveling..
 
And from http://www.epic.org

Tracking currency: The European Central Bank is moving forward with plans to embed RFID tags as thin as a human hair into the fibers of Euro bank notes by 2005, in spite of consumer protests. The tags would allow currency to record information about each transaction in which it is passed. Governments and law enforcement agencies hail the technology as a means of preventing money-laundering, black-market transactions, and even bribery demands for unmarked bills. However, consumers fear that the technology will eliminate the anonymity that cash affords.
_______________________________

I'll have to pay for everything in coins!
 
I seem to recall that about five years ago we were told that tiny
identifier particles would make theft a thing of the past.

Now there is a new product, a different market, some similar
claims. Until it too becomes a thing of the past.

I think it is right to be aware of these developments and their social
implications but sensible to allow for the hyperbole of the makers'
claims.

Incidentally, there was a time when people in your neighbourhood
knew exactly what you were buying. They were local shop-keepers!
I have seen documentaries in which people describe the trips
outside their locale to buy contraceptives. :eek:
 
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