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Alternative Medicine: Homeopathy

Cochise said:
Analysing all this is made a bit difficult by the placebo paradox, which I assume isn't woo. If it is, someone tell me and it makes it all a lot simpler.
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Ben Goldacre makes the same point in 'Bad Science' and it's worth reading, where he explore the placebo effect at some length and it's even odder than you might think. He does make the point that apart from being charlatans, homeopaths are also muddying the water around the placebo effect and that an understanding of the effect and perhaps even how to utilise it, would be a great advance in medicine.
 
Coal said:
Ben Goldacre makes the same point in 'Bad Science' and it's worth reading, where he explore the placebo effect at some length and it's even odder than you might think. He does make the point that apart from being charlatans, homeopaths are also muddying the water around the placebo effect and that an understanding of the effect and perhaps even how to utilise it, would be a great advance in medicine.
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To a further point, the idea of the placebo effect is generally misunderstood. One if the podcasts I listen to has a reoccurring segment where one of the hosts looks at papers used to support it, including several used by Ben Goldacre. The studies aren't very good, to say the least.
 
Interestingly, the placebo effect is 75% likely to make people feel better regardless of whether the treatment was effective. I wonder if anyone has done a study about whether the more you spend on a treatment, the better you feel, even if that treatment is a placebo? Confirmation bias theory would suggest that the larger the sacrifice you make, the more likely the treatment is to work, except that at some point, you will become insecure about the money you paid is too much and suddenly it will fail again because you are anxious about the money.

An interesting parallel is that when the Navajo were charging $15 for their turquoise and silver jewelry, they sold nothing, but the moment some idiot (or genius) dropped the decimal point and they were charging $1500, they sold like hotcakes.

These days there has been a huge rationalization of the Medical professions, doing a statistical analysis of every procedure to determine whether the treatments they have been using actually work. This is called "evidence based medicine" for those who haven't heard of it. Each treatment is judged against the placebo effect threshold to see if it is more or less effective from the perspective of the patient.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence-based_medicine

For those with money and time:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0146000597800134
 
AlchoPwn said:
These days there has been a huge rationalization of the Medical professions, doing a statistical analysis of every procedure to determine whether the treatments they have been using actually work. This is called "evidence based medicine" for those who haven't heard of it. Each treatment is judged against the placebo effect threshold to see if it is more or less effective from the perspective of the patient.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence-based_medicine

For those with money and time:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0146000597800134
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They're also designed to weed out 'non-placebo' biases introduced by those administering the drugs knowing whether they're providing treatment or placebo and priming effects caused by the order of testing procedures, as well as making it very hard for someone to deliberately bias the trial in some way.

Someone famous said "no randomisation, no effect" or something like it.
 
AlchoPwn said:
I wonder if anyone has done a study about whether the more you spend on a treatment, the better you feel, even if that treatment is a placebo? Confirmation bias theory would suggest that the larger the sacrifice you make, the more likely the treatment is to work, except that at some point, you will become insecure about the money you paid is too much and suddenly it will fail again because you are anxious about the money.
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What an interesting idea for a study! Taking the paying-for-it out of the equation, I am sure that more expensive seeming placebos are more effective than ordinary ones, easy to test just by telling different study participants that the placebo pill has different prices. I would bet a lot that those in the 'expensive' group would get more of an effect.

I'm not sure how one could test the sacrifice aspect, though, ethically. One could look at the success rates of different practitioners with different prices, but too many other confounding factors might come into play there.

But your (hypothetical) placebo drop-off suggests that the consumer is aware, deep down, that they may not be getting value for money, so I guess that may be another way into doing such a study ... how much would people (hypothetically) pay for various services, both placebo- and evidence-based?
 
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I can't for the life of me remember where I read or heard it now, but I'm sure there has been some research into different kinds of placebo.

IIRC, small pills are 'better' than large ones (as people perceive them as more powerful), and red ones are 'stronger' than blue.
 
Naughty_Felid said:
Where the hell would they get that stuff? Not having a go Scarg but sounds utter BS.
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Yeah, I was quoting Ramon who had it from theweek.com, on a page carrying the subheading 'And other stories from the stranger side of life'. I'm not sure anyone reputable supports it, although it's worrying that Health Canada, the Canadian department of health, is alleged to approve it.
 
Fluttermoth said:
I can't for the life of me remember where I read or heard it now, but I'm sure there has been some research into different kinds of placebo.

IIRC, small pills are 'better' than large ones (as people perceive them as more powerful), and red ones are 'stronger' than blue.
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There have been, actually. Even git some big press and a few references by respected writers.
But... The quality if the papers is pretty crap.
 
There's a NZ Facebook page called 'My Kids Lick The Bowl', by a woman who cooks wholesome food for children. She recently posted about using love, cuddles, rest and woo instead of medicines for babies and children, and other parents agreed with her, saying that they also use homeopathy and essential oils.

This kid knows how to get his own way -

My little guy is a fussy eater at the best of times and getting him to take medication in any way, shape, or form is impossible
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:-( Unfortunately that makes the decision for us... sigh. We do get him the flu jab but otherwise it's just cuddles all night long sometimes.
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Here's a 9 year-old refusing medicine - she'll let Mummy smear oil on the soles of her feet instead though -

Hi fellow Mummy's! I also had issues giving medication to my kids. My 9 year old was SO sick last year & refused to take antibiotics or panadol/nurofen. Her fever was scaring me. I started using pure essential oil on the soles of her feet & spine & couldn't believe how quickly the fever reduced! I am so happy to have alternatives for those who refuse medicine now because man is it scary when fever & illness spikes & you are helpless to support their precious bodies. Sometimes I can get by with just oily support, other times we need an added support, it is no-one's business to judge.
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What sort of parent can't give a little child medicine? Mine were raised to have vaccinations and take whatever meds I was advised to give them. I really do worry for the future health, physical AND mental, of children whose parents let them push them around.
 

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As long as conventional medicine often fails us, we will also turn to other sources of medicine whether bunkum or not, simply because we're desperate. And that is tragically sad, isn't it?

All too often the prescribed medications either simply don't work, or give so many side effects that it is impossible to take them whilst still functioning as a human being. So what choice do we have but to look elsewhere.
 
A Dr Paul Fisher, 67, among whose patients was the Queen, has sadly died in a cycling accident in London.

He was a homeopathic doctor and a friend of Prince Charles.

Out of respect for his family I won't say anything rude.
 
EnolaGaia said:
Here's a concise article explaining why the notion of 'water memory' makes no scientific sense...
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Here’s an even more concise explanation:

“It’s risible pseudoscientific bollocks.”

maximus otter
 
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escargot said:
A Dr Paul Fisher, 67, among whose patients was the Queen, has sadly died in a cycling accident in London.

He was a homeopathic doctor and a friend of Prince Charles.

Out of respect for his family I won't say anything rude.
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Charles is weeping with his willows.
 
I do not believe in homoeopathy - but I do believe that if you can convince your patient they are going to get better they are more likely to actually get better.

Any reputable homoeopath will make sure as far as is possible that you continue with your conventional prescribed medicine. In those circumstances they may do some good in raising the morale (?) of a patient sceptical of conventional remedies. A homoeopath who encourages you to drop your conventional medicine is a danger.
 
How does homeopathy tie in with quantum theory? Seeing as how the idea is that the less there is - determines the potentcy, could homeopathy cross over that boundary between molecular and sub molecular?

My quantum theory and knowledge of homeopathy is extremely basic to non existent, but something stirs my curiosity about any connection between it and t'other.

Is there anybody out there who can give a definitive answer?
 
Mungoman said:
How does homeopathy tie in with quantum theory? ...
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This came up in conversation with a now-deceased friend some years ago. My understanding at the time was that homeopathy adherents had jumped on the quantum entanglement bandwagon. The focus of their interest in quantum entanglement didn't relate directly to the dilutions per se, but rather to an attempt to explain the concept of 'water memory'.

Some cursory 'Net-rummaging turned up this paper indexed in (US) NIH's National Library of Medicine:

Generalized entanglement: a new theoretical model for understanding the effects of complementary and alternative medicine.
Author: Harald Walach
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15992244

Abstract

BACKGROUND AND PROBLEM:
A main problem for the acceptance of many methods belonging to the broad spectrum of complementary and alternative medicine (CAM) is that there is no conceivable theoretical bridge between the mainstream biomedical model and CAM theories and practice. Although empirical evidence is one important side of the coin of credibility, theoretical feasibility is the other. History of science teaches that no amount of empirical evidence will convince sceptics and followers of more conventional paradigms as long as there is no good theoretical model to make empirical findings plausible.

METHODS AND SOLUTION:
I therefore propose to broaden the spectrum of theoretical concepts beyond the reigning local-causalist model toward a non-local model that encompasses effects as encountered in CAM. Such a model can be derived from a generalized and weaker version of quantum theory recently developed and published by my colleagues and I as weak quantum theory (WQT). This theoretical model predicts nonlocal correlations analogous to Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen (EPR)-like correlations in quantum mechanics proper. The discerning moment, though, is that these nonlocal correlations within WQT are not EPR correlations postulated to extend into the classical world, but a broader, generalized version of entanglement not dependent on the strict quantum nature of the system under question. WQT predicts entanglement between elements of a system if two variables or observables are complementary: one describing a global and one the local aspects of the system. Entanglement then ensues between those local elements of a system that are complementary to the global description or observable of that system.

DISCUSSION AND CONCLUSIONS:
This paper explores this rather abstract and general notion and expands it into more concrete examples. It is at the moment a purely explanatory structure, which, however, lends itself to exact empirical testing due to rather precise predictions, which will be developed. Because this structure of generalized entanglement is ubiquitous and also operative in conventional medicine, and because it is derived from one of the strongest theories that science has developed so far, it would constitute a theoretical bridge between the different medical and scientific traditions.
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At face value, it appears the true believers have invested considerable effort in hypothesizing their own adjunct to, or spin upon, QT -called Weak Quantum Theory (WQT) - under which they propose a model of entanglement more general than the one the physicists currently use.

I have no idea if this is the sole, or the primary, proposed intersection between QT and homeopathy.
 
escargot said:
There's a NZ Facebook page called 'My Kids Lick The Bowl', by a woman who cooks wholesome food for children. She recently posted about using love, cuddles, rest and woo instead of medicines for babies and children, and other parents agreed with her, saying that they also use homeopathy and essential oils.

This kid knows how to get his own way -



Here's a 9 year-old refusing medicine - she'll let Mummy smear oil on the soles of her feet instead though -



What sort of parent can't give a little child medicine? Mine were raised to have vaccinations and take whatever meds I was advised to give them. I really do worry for the future health, physical AND mental, of children whose parents let them push them around.
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Just had a look at their site - I can't see anything particularly out of order apart from no burger and chips.
 
EnolaGaia said:
This came up in conversation with a now-deceased friend some years ago. My understanding at the time was that homeopathy adherents had jumped on the quantum entanglement bandwagon. The focus of their interest in quantum entanglement didn't relate directly to the dilutions per se, but rather to an attempt to explain the concept of 'water memory'.

Some cursory 'Net-rummaging turned up this paper indexed in (US) NIH's National Library of Medicine:



At face value, it appears the true believers have invested considerable effort in hypothesizing their own adjunct to, or spin upon, QT -called Weak Quantum Theory (WQT) - under which they propose a model of entanglement more general than the one the physicists currently use.

I have no idea if this is the sole, or the primary, proposed intersection between QT and homeopathy.
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I genuinely can't tell if these folk are completely deluded or cynically continuing a business that bilks money from the gullible.

I wonder if I can patent a homeopathic medicine for reducing gullibility?
 
Coal said:
I genuinely can't tell if these folk are completely deluded or cynically continuing a business that bilks money from the gullible.

I wonder if I can patent a homeopathic medicine for reducing gullibility?
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Has anyone tried marketing an Emperor's New Dose "medicine" with a promised efficacy that is directly proportional to intelligence, i.e. the smarter you are, the better the result? Not many people would say "It didn't work on me, I must be thick".
 
Naughty_Felid said:
Just had a look at their site - I can't see anything particularly out of order apart from no burger and chips.
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I've no problem with the food, it was the discussion on the page that I mentioned - using love, cuddles, rest and woo instead of medicines for babies and children, and other parents agreed with her, saying that they also use homeopathy and essential oils - that I didn't like.
 
Coal said:
I genuinely can't tell if these folk are completely deluded or cynically continuing a business that bilks money from the gullible.

I wonder if I can patent a homeopathic medicine for reducing gullibility?
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I'm curious though Coal with the minute amount of protein needed to set an anaphylactic condition off in some of the population, and the minute amounts spoken of with homeopathy.

Shades of grey.
 
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