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Amazons & Other Women Warriors: Legends & Evidence

A logical possibility no one seems to consider here is a transgendered burial. Transvestitism is a time-honored way for a woman to join the armed forces. Sure, it would be discovered on her death - but if those laying the body out were sympathetic, they might still make sure s/he had the suitable funeral rites for her profession.

This is not an easy theory to prove about any given burial, but I think it should be considered when running through the possible explanations.

Also, if an intersex person is reduced to a skeleton, is it necessarily true that the bones will reflect the gender identity used in life? Forensic scientists are pretty good at distinguishing males from females, but the choices don't boil down to that. Sure, any randomly found set of bones should be assumed to be typical rather than atypical in the absence of compelling evidence - but once the bones are shown to be atypical, the doors of possibility should be opened. And I think we're all agreed that women in Roman warrior burials are atypical.
 
Update
http://www.cumbria-online.co.uk/viewarticle.asp?id=166015
BURIED WOMEN ‘WERE IN AMAZON FIGHTING TRIBE’
Published in News & Star on Wednesday, December 29th 2004

Fierce: Women may have fought in the Roman army
By Pam McClounie

TWO bodies unearthed from an ancient cemetery at Brougham, near Penrith, have changed experts’ views on Roman Britain.

For the 1,750-year-old remains – found at the site in the 1960s – have been identified as women warriors who may have been from the fabled Amazon fighting tribe of Eastern Europe.

The discovery has astonished archaeologists and historians because women were not previously known to have fought in the Roman army, which occupied Britain between 55BC and AD410.

The remains were found at a burial ground just off the M6 at Brougham. At the time Brougham was a fort and civilian settlement known as Brocavum.

Some of the items found in and around Carlisle as part of the excavation of Brougham cemetery in 1966 and 1967 were on display in Tullie House museum. They included a murdered man’s skull and burial tombstones.

Experts believe the two women warriors died between AD220 and AD300. They had been burnt on pyres along with their horses and military equipment.

One of the women – believed to be aged between 20 and 40 – was discovered with the burnt remnants of animals. Possessions of bone veneer, a sword scabbard and red pottery buried with her suggest she was of high status.

The other woman, thought to have been between 21 and 45, was buried with a silver bowl, a sword scabbard, bone veneer and ivory. The pair are believed to have been part of the numerii, a Roman irregular unit.

Other finds at the site suggest the unit in which the women served was originally from the Danube region of central and eastern Europe, where the ancient Greeks said the fearsome Amazon warriors could be found.

The Amazons were considered very brave, daring, fearless and dignified fighters and reputed as skilled horsewomen. However, tales that they cut off one breast to make it easier to fire a bow and arrow are believed to be unfounded.

The bodies of the two Roman women warriors were among 180 from the third century AD.

Full-scale analysis and identification had to wait until the last few years, when the technology needed for a full assessment of the remains became available.

Recent scientific advances have finally allowed archaeologists to determine the ages and gender of the dead.

Hilary Cool, director of Barbican Research Associates, which specialises in post excavation archaeological analysis, said the find is changing our understanding of Roman burial sites.

“It seems highly probable that we have a unit raised in the Danubian lands and transferred to Britain,” she said.

“Though the numerii are generally referred to as irregular units, they are not thought of as having women among their ranks.

“However, the unit came from the area where the Ancient Greeks placed the origin of women warriors called Amazons.”
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:D
 
Now I know what my mission in life is. I am going to put my degree in Archeology to good use and prove once and for all that AMAZONS did exist.

WW
 
<Emerges from under copy of `Asterix and the Secret Weapon`>

Its already been done.
 
I don't have a degree but I'd be willing to bet that ANY ancient-and-associated-with-the-Romans will be claimed by those 'Oop North'!

History shows that Northern Britain has so much to be proud of, in defiance to common sense, that it doesn't need a proposed force of warrior women, who lopped off a tit, hated men and disappeared from all accounts of locals.

Which is a bugger when there is no other traces of these Brummie Ball-
Bashers!

A single cigar stub doesn't prove a smoker!
 
WonderWoman said:
Now I know what my mission in life is. I am going to put my degree in Archeology to good use and prove once and for all that AMAZONS did exist.
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Hurrah!!

*throws chakram*
 
Stormkhan said:
There's plenty of sound evidence for female gladiatrix and at least one 'burial' in Londinium, with full honours, of such a warrior, let alone in the other provinces.
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Well, I'm not sure about the 'plenty' bit WRT to the 'gladiatrix' find. Seems to me that alot of conclusions were drawn from some incense burners and a few oil lamps which bore depictions of gladiators. Sure, the burial was somewhat unusual due to it's location, but I get the feeling that alot of what's been said about it (i.e. a whole programme on C4) was a little over-enthusiastic.
 
December 22, 2004

Women warriors from Amazon fought for Britain's Roman army

By Lewis Smith


THE remains of two Amazon warriors serving with the Roman army in Britain have been discovered in a cemetery that has astonished archaeologists.

Women soldiers were previously unknown in the Roman army in Britain and the find at Brougham in Cumbria will force a reappraisal of their role in 3rd-century society.

The women are thought to have come from the Danube region of Eastern Europe, which was where the Ancient Greeks said the fearsome Amazon warriors could be found.

The women, believed to have died some time between AD220 and 300, were burnt on pyres upon which were placed their horses and military equipment. The remains were uncovered in the 1960s but full-scale analysis and identification has been possible only since 2000 with technological advances.

The soldiers are believed to have been part of the numerii, a Roman irregular unit, which would have been attached to a legion serving in Britain. Other finds show that their unit originated from the Danubian provinces of Noricum, Pannonia and Ilyria which now form parts of Austria, Hungary and the former Yugoslavia.

Hilary Cool, the director of Barbican Research Associates, which specialises in post- excavation archaeological analysis, said that the remains were the most intriguing aspects of a site that is changing our understanding of Roman burial rites.

“It seems highly probable that we have a unit raised in the Danubian lands and transferred to Britain,” she says in British Archaeology.

“Though the numerii are generally referred to as irregular units, they are not thought of as having women among their ranks. However, the unit came from the area where the Ancient Greeks placed the origin of women warriors called Amazons. Could the numerii be even more irregular than anyone has ever dreamt?”

The cemetery at Brougham served a fort and the civilian settlement of Brocavum in the 3rd century and analysis of the remains of more than 180 people showed that everybody’s ashes were buried there. Archaeologists have been able to determine the ages and gender of the dead and to build up a detailed picture of Roman funerals in Brougham.

One of the sets of women warrior’s remains were found with the burnt remnants of animals. Bone veneer, used to decorate boxes, was also found alongside evidence of a sword scabbard and red pottery. The possessions suggest that she was of high status and her age has been estimated at between 20 and 40 years old. The other woman, thought to be between 21 and 45, was buried with a silver bowl, a sword scabbard, bone veneer and ivory.
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Source
 
A paper about gladiator women. The opening statement:
Female Gladiators of the Ancient Roman World
By Steven Murray

Copyright © EJMAS 2003. All rights reserved.

In September 2000, the Museum of London announced a discovery that garnered worldwide media attention and sparked intense debate within the academic community. Specifically, Museum scholars announced that the grave of a purported gladiator, dating to the first century CE, had been unearthed in the greater London area.

The museum’s scholars said that only one other similar gravesite (in Trier, Germany) had ever been found. [EN1] Therefore, this was a special find indeed.

However, it was not the rarity of the find that captured international attention nor even the fact that the grave was supposedly that of a gladiator. To the surprise of all, the broken and burnt remains in this grave proved to be those of a woman.

Accordingly, the Museum of London suggested that these remains were the first ever found of a female gladiator. The discovery was unprecedented, in terms of both physicality and interpretation. [EN2]

Classicists have long known that female gladiators existed because of selected references in the ancient texts and inscriptions; the literary and epigraphical evidence is quite convincing. However, if the museum’s scholars were correct, the world now had the first human forensic evidence supporting the existence of female gladiators.

While the traditional textual and archeological sources that depict female gladiators are well known to classicists, the same sources may be unknown to the typical sport scholar who is less schooled in classical languages and ancient history. Sport scholars, therefore, would find it beneficial to have the pertinent information distilled into one concise, readily available, source. The purpose of this paper is to provide that source.

Specifically, it:

* Presents the evidence for the existence of female gladiators found in the ancient texts coupled with attendant scholastic and archaeological exposition.
* Surmises the details of their life in and out of the arena.
* Explores whether or not the gravesite excavated by the Museum of London is in fact one of a female gladiator.
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There is an upcoming film coming out, The Woman King staring Viola Davis, whose plot is described thusly at IMDB:

A historical epic inspired by the true events that happened in The Kingdom of Dahomey, one of the most powerful states of Africa in the 18th and 19th centuries.
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There is an article about them here:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/dahomeys-women-warriors-88286072/

It is noon on a humid Saturday in the fall of 1861, and a missionary by the name of Francesco Borghero has been summoned to a parade ground in Abomey, the capital of the small West African state of Dahomey. He is seated on one side of a huge, open square right in the center of the town–Dahomey is renowned as a “Black Sparta,” a fiercely militaristic society bent on conquest, whose soldiers strike fear into their enemies all along what is still known as the Slave Coast. The maneuvers begin in the face of a looming downpour, but King Glele is eager to show off the finest unit in his army to his European guest.

As Father Borghero fans himself, 3,000 heavily armed soldiers march into the square and begin a mock assault on a series of defenses designed to represent an enemy capital. The Dahomean troops are a fearsome sight, barefoot and bristling with clubs and knives. A few, known as Reapers, are armed with gleaming three-foot-long straight razors, each wielded two-handed and capable, the priest is told, of slicing a man clean in two.

The soldiers advance in silence, reconnoitering. Their first obstacle is a wall—huge piles of acacia branches bristling with needle-sharp thorns, forming a barricade that stretches nearly 440 yards. The troops rush it furiously, ignoring the wounds that the two-inch-long thorns inflict. After scrambling to the top, they mime hand-to-hand combat with imaginary defenders, fall back, scale the thorn wall a second time, then storm a group of huts and drag a group of cringing “prisoners” to where Glele stands, assessing their performance. The bravest are presented with belts made from acacia thorns. Proud to show themselves impervious to pain, the warriors strap their trophies around their waists.

The general who led the assault appears and gives a lengthy speech, comparing the valor of Dahomey’s warrior elite to that of European troops and suggesting that such equally brave peoples should never be enemies. Borghero listens, but his mind is wandering. He finds the general captivating: “slender but shapely, proud of bearing, but without affectation.” Not too tall, perhaps, nor excessively muscular. But then, of course, the general is a woman, as are all 3,000 of her troops. Father Borghero has been watching the King of Dahomey’s famed corps of “amazons,” as contemporary writers termed them—the only female soldiers in the world who then routinely served as combat troops.
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It looks to be quite the boffo flick who are fans of powerful women kicking behootney! However, an interesting other side to this tale is Zora Neale Hurston's recently published Barracoon, which saw the famed writer talking to the last living (at that time) man enslaved from Africa, Cudjo Lewis aka Oluale Kossola. It turns out that he was captured and sold into slavery by the women of the Dahomey Kingdom!

https://www.theatlantic.com/enterta...lights-unpopular-narratives-barracoon/571789/
Unlike many published slave narratives, which focus on Great Britain’s colonies, Kossola’s account offers a panoramic look at the machinations of the slave trade: the shared greed that enabled one of society’s most heinous crimes against humanity. Kossola decried the instability of militaristic, top-heavy societies like Dahomey, the widely feared African kingdom that facilitated the conquest of neighboring tribes and nations and eventually negotiated with slavers from Alabama. “He keep making raids to grabee people,” Kossola tells Hurston of the king of Dahomey, “to sell so de people of Dahomey doan have no time to raise gardens an’ make food for deyselves.”

Kossola names the power players at each level of society, including those serving as go-betweens: the Dahomey’s “word-changers,” or translators, the Kru boys—master seafarers who migrated from the Liberian hinterlands, made a living through fishing and trade, and shuttled millions of Africans to slave ships. Kossola’s story broadens the popular narrative, showing that the lust for dominance that sparked the slave trade wasn’t endemic to colonizers, and that West African societies were often active participants. The Dahomey reign serves as a crude reminder that excellence usually exists at the expense of others, calling into question the prioritizing of stories about African kingdoms like ancient Egypt. Kossola illustrates the multiplicity of African societies, making it known in the first chapter, “My people had no ivory by their door.”
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According to the comic book movie, Wonder Women was a “ golem”, Zeus made her from clay to be the “ god killer “ going after Perseus.

In real life, how could a tribe of all women in the Amazon survive without sex with men ?

How could an all tribe women keep up their numbers ?

How could either all men or all women anything survive ?
 
charliebrown said:
... In real life, how could a tribe of all women in the Amazon survive without sex with men ? ...
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Just a note for clarification ... The mythology surrounding Amazons dates back to ancient Greece. The Amazon region got it name from the mythical version of the women warrior culture. The Spanish conquistador Francisco de Orellana, setting out originally from what's now Ecuador and crossing the Andes, inadvertently but successfully navigated the huge river system to the Atlantic. Along the way his expedition had to fight one or more indigenous groups who incorporated female warriors. When Orellana returned to Euro-civilization he described the women warriors as being akin to the Amazons of Greek legend. The great river was originally named for Orellana, but its name soon changed owing to the popularity of Orellana's references to it as "the river of the Amazons."
 
charliebrown said:
According to the comic book movie, Wonder Women was a “ golem”, Zeus made her from clay to be the “ god killer “ going after Perseus.

In real life, how could a tribe of all women in the Amazon survive without sex with men ?

How could an all tribe women keep up their numbers ?

How could either all men or all women anything survive ?
Click to expand...
Parthenogenesis, magic, dashing WW1 aviator played by Chris Pine washing up ashore once every generation or so?
 
charliebrown said:
According to the comic book movie, Wonder Women was a “ golem”, Zeus made her from clay to be the “ god killer “ going after Perseus.

In real life, how could a tribe of all women in the Amazon survive without sex with men ?

How could an all tribe women keep up their numbers ?

How could either all men or all women anything survive ?
Click to expand...
They kidnapped men and made them into sex slaves for their sperm.

Or at least that seems to be a predominant belief in certain corners of t’internet…
 
WeirdExeter said:
They kidnapped men and made them into sex slaves for their sperm.

Or at least that seems to be a predominant belief in certain corners of t’internet…
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As confirmed by that seminal documentary 'Carry On up the Jungle'.

I would have thought you'd only have got women warriors in societies that had a surplus of women not involved in producing offspring. Which is not to say women with children can't fight, but perpetuation of the tribe has always been an overriding cultural consideration, and exposing potential mothers to battle might be a disaster if they suffered heavy casualties. I suppose some caste system might have evolved which designated certain numbers of women as warriors instead of fighters - that is maybe what happened in Dahomey?
 
Cochise said:
I would have thought you'd only have got women warriors in societies that had a surplus of women not involved in producing offspring. Which is not to say women with children can't fight, but perpetuation of the tribe has always been an overriding cultural consideration, and exposing potential mothers to battle might be a disaster if they suffered heavy casualties. I suppose some caste system might have evolved which designated certain numbers of women as warriors instead of fighters - that is maybe what happened in Dahomey?
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It's childcare that's the issue, not the pregnancy and birth bit.
 
Cochise said:
As confirmed by that seminal documentary 'Carry On up the Jungle'.

I would have thought you'd only have got women warriors in societies that had a surplus of women not involved in producing offspring. Which is not to say women with children can't fight, but perpetuation of the tribe has always been an overriding cultural consideration, and exposing potential mothers to battle might be a disaster if they suffered heavy casualties. I suppose some caste system might have evolved which designated certain numbers of women as warriors instead of fighters - that is maybe what happened in Dahomey?
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I'd have thought the practial scenarios would involve terrain or styles of warefare where outright physical strength wasn't an overwhleming advantage. So mounted archers or dense jungle warefare, scenarios where skill or stealth were of at least equal importance.
 
Frideswide said:
It's childcare that's the issue, not the pregnancy and birth bit.
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Well, that and growing food, mending clothes, probably mucking out the horses and other little tasks that women performed in 'idyllic' primitive societies like the Plains Indians. While the blokes sat around smoking pipes or summat.

Never did quite understand how the hippie interest in primitivism and feminism fitted together.
 
Cochise said:
Well, that and growing food, mending clothes, probably mucking out the horses and other little tasks that women performed in 'idyllic' primitive societies like the Plains Indians. While the blokes sat around smoking pipes or summat.
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Those are culture-based roles though, not physical necessities.
 
the classical Amazons were mostly horse archers but there was a small element of beefy hand to hand sorts.
 
Looks like the film is dealing with elements of the slave trade after all:
https://www.indiewire.com/2022/09/w...prince-bythewood-backlash-twitter-1234763731/

As the hashtag #BoycottWomanKing trended on the social media platform, a number of users professed their disinterest in seeing a film that they believed obscured the history of the Kingdom of Dahomey, in which the Viola Davis-starring film is set. At issue: that the film, set in 1823, does not accurately portray the relationship between the West African country and the slave trade.


The fervor over the film’s perceived inaccuracies appeared to be stoked by the film’s marketing, which center it as predominantly focusing on the all-female warrior army the Agojie, plus recent articles that purport to share the “real history” of the kingdom (including this National Review piece, which dives into the history of how some African nations, including Dahomey, were guilty of participating in the slave trade with European invaders, offering up their own countrymen in exchange for material goods).

But while those historical notations are true, they also don’t reflect the content of Prince-Bythewood’s film itself, which does not shy away from the link between the Kingdom of Dahomey and the repugnant slave trade.


In fact, much of the film, written by Dana Stevens and Maria Bello, follows that exact storyline, with Davis’ revered general Nanisca attempting to sway her king (John Boyega) to abandon the slave trade because of its horrific impact on their fellow countrymen. It’s not just mentioned in the film, it’s a large portion of the drama of its story. But when people boycott a film, presumably without seeing it first, that message is lost.


“I learned early on you cannot win an argument on Twitter,” Prince-Bythewood told IndieWire during a recent interview. “And I know all of that is going to go away once they see the film. There’s an assumption we’re not dealing with it and we are dealing with it. So I have to live in that confidence. They’re going to see the film and they’re going to see it.”


As mentioned in IndieWire’s review of the film, “Nanisca is a fierce warrior and an impressive leader, but she’s grown tired of violence, or at least of the things that make it feel necessary, like slavery. (Davis is, of course, perfect casting for a role that requires both gravitas and deep empathy.) More than anything, she wants King Ghezo to see the possibility of a Dahomey that does not need to engage in the slave trade — yes, they sell to the white men; no, ‘The Woman King’ does not turn away from this part of history — to be prosperous. That it does not need to sell any Black body to get ahead.”

“I really wish that the conversations could happen around the film as opposed to around the anticipation of the film, because I think that we did not hesitate to investigate those areas,” producer Cathy Schulman told IndieWire during a recent interview. “The fact is that slavery is driven by material gain. It offered up people on this continent an option to make money that should not have been offered up or forced upon them. And, once it was, it created all sorts of internal conflict, and we don’t hesitate in visiting that within the film.”

She added, “I’m a big believer that information is power, and I think that understanding issues surrounding slavery from the standpoint of the African perspective is relevant. We look at it most of the time from what happened once these people were enslaved and were actually landing here in America versus what was going on on the other side.”

Deadline reports that the film is estimated to earn $18 million this weekend, boosted in part by positive word of mouth: the film received an A+ CinemaScore in early showings, signaling that those who had actually seen the film enjoyed what they saw enough to heartily recommend it to others.
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MrRING said:
Looks like the film is dealing with elements of the slave trade after all:
https://www.indiewire.com/2022/09/w...prince-bythewood-backlash-twitter-1234763731/
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The Woman King: Set in Dahomey in 1823 this film tells the story of it's Amazon Warriors, the Agojie. Led by General Nanisca (Viola Davis) they are the kingdoms special forces as they go to war with their countries enemies. We see Nanisca leading an attack on a village which has captured some of her people, the women warriors eerily rise from the grass and attack. This like many other battles scenes is balletically choreographed. But the fight scenes also remain savage. What is at stake is the continued existence of Dahomey, while they fight the slave traders. Dahomey also used to sell their captives as slaves, this isn't covered up but Nanisca continuously counselled against this. It is the story of Nanisca's life but also that of the rites of passage of a young recruit, Nawi (Thuso Mbedu). An adventure story which also explore the patriarchal nature of Dahomey society and the role of both African and Western Slavers. The one discordant note is the yearning after Nawi by Malik, an associate of the slavers whose mother was captured from Dahoney. Some plot twists and surprises which can't be revealed here without spoiling the film for you. Directed by Gina Prince-Bythewood and written by Dana Stevens, based on a story she wrote with Maria Bello. 8/10.

In cinemas.
 
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