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Amityville Horror: Where Do You Stand?

Did Something Supernatural Happen in Amityville?

  • No, it's a Hoax all the way and the Lutz family lied through their teeth

    Votes: 43 46.2%

  • No, but the Lutz family convinced themselves & the Warrens it was real over the years

    Votes: 28 30.1%

  • Yes, but it wasn't at all to the level of the book, just a minor haunting

    Votes: 20 21.5%

  • Yes, and it was exactly what was in the book

    Votes: 2 2.2%

  • Yes, but only the psychic impressions of the case were real - no material haunting

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    93
As a believer and webmaster of The Amityville Horror Online, http://www.amityvillehorroronline.cjb.net I can say that the case is far from a hoax.

What you said about the anti-amityville folks is very true. Alot of them seem to almost have a grudge against the Lutz's.

THAT is one of the reasons I have trouble listening to skeptics when they bring up the Amityville case.

You see, I have nothing against skeptics, infact, I am a very skeptical person, but I am very open minded at the same time. But it's people like Stephen Kaplan and Ric Osuna who have totally tried to get out there and prove the entire case a hoax. It's funny, because they haven't proved a single thing. Infact, THEY have exaggerated more than Anson did in his book. It just doesn't shed a good light on the skeptics.

So yeah, I'd say that there should be an entire issue of Fortean Times (I need to subscribe one of these days) devoted to the subject.

It's something really, I am finding out through my website and amityvilletruth's site that there are a lot of people out there that support the believer's side of the case.
 
Just in time for Halloween! I thought that I'd ask and see what everybody's current opinion about this case is. Because it seems like there are many who are convijnced that it is a hoax, but just as many unconvinced. I don't want to be a true-beliver who disregards evidence, but it seems like the crowd who says it never happened have an axe to grind agains the Lutzs. Of course, the pro-crowd is just the Lutzs and Ed and Lorrane Warren.

I've had some other interesting Amityville threads here if you want to read some comments pro and con...

see the earlier pages of this this merged thread - rynner
 
I'll just show my gullibility here by saying that I believe the Lutzes could have been targeted for a haunting in the house even though no one else has had difficulty.

For whatever reason (Mr. Lutz looked like Ronnie, stress, personalities) they could have attracted something. The dramatization of the case made it a sure financial sell, but they could have been frightened by some milder strange events.
 
childhood terror vs. adult skepticism

I took the second option, "No, but the subjects have convinced themselves something happened", even though the book horrified me as a child.

I just had so many problems with the whole case, especially that interview with the Warrens where they claim to have made contact with the spirit of Ronald DeFeo [sic] during a seance, even though he was alive and incarcerated at the time!

Who knows though? Maybe it was a poltergeist that was just lying and claiming to be DeFeo to add even more confusion?

I'm in general pretty skeptical of anything put out by the Warrens, and I feel I CAN say that, as I have bought and read all of their published works, and found them lacking.

Trace Mann
 
Re: childhood terror vs. adult skepticism

ZPumpkinEscobar said:
I just had so many problems with the whole case, especially that interview with the Warrens where they claim to have made contact with the spirit of Ronald DeFeo [sic] during a seance, even though he was alive and incarcerated at the time!
Click to expand...

Well, I think the Warrens are just this side of loony, but did they mean they had contacted Ronald DeFeo Jr, or Ronald DeFeo Sr?
So far plenty of interesting votes - keep it up!:)
 
Amityville threads chained together.
 
Re: Re: childhood terror vs. adult skepticism

Mr. R.I.N.G. said:
Well, I think the Warrens are just this side of loony, but did they mean they had contacted Ronald DeFeo Jr, or Ronald DeFeo Sr?
So far plenty of interesting votes - keep it up!:)
Click to expand...

Good point!

After posting, I also found myself wondering if any of the families who lived there after the Lutz's had any children who could be a "focus" for poltergeist activity? If not, maybe that would go some way towards explaining why the activity stopped.

As for the difference between a poltergeist versus a demonic haunting, as they are being deemed either "demonic" or "poltergeist" by humans with probable axes to grind, or strongly held beliefs, are they not moot?

Can't a poltergeist pretend to be a demon and vice versa? And if not... who makes up these rules and enforces them?

Trace Mann
 
and as a side note to Rynner

Now THAT was a good bump!

Not that you need my approval.... obviously.


Trace Mann
 
Amityville - Horror or Hoax?

"COMING NEXT MONTH

Amityville revisited

The true story of the house from Hell"

Unless delayed to tie in with the movie remake, Issue 189 of FT will feature the above article.
So what can we expect?

It appears the Amityville story ran it's course in the UK - I saw a screening of the original movie recently, and as the light came up a mate blurted out, "and the funny thing is, it was all a hoax!"

And that's what I believed for many years.

First, forget the hype – the walls never bled and the front door never ripped from it’s hinges. You can blame Jay Anson’s novel for that. And the movie.

Did anyone here see George and Kathy on the History Channel specials back in 2000? I doubt many people outside of the US did. Very good overview of the case, people both pro-and-con of the story gave opinion. So despite cries of hoax over the years, the bottom line the Lutzes still insist they were haunted.

Here are the basics for the Hoax theory --

"They couldn’t afford the house"… "Lutzes business was going bust"… "They fled and made up most of the story, ”over many bottles of wine” with lawyer William Weber"… "The story kept becoming more outlandish with each retelling"..!

Those stories have been around for years... and of course, there's another side to it all...

Which brings us back to Issue 189

What's it gonna be? An article examining facts from all sides? Or a rehash of the popular misconceptions that have arisen over the years? I fear it will be the latter, as I heard George Lutz wasn’t even approached for this article..... and yet it billed as the “true story”?!!

Years ago I thought it was a hoax... but after recent testimony of George, Kathy and Christopher on TV and radio (the other "kids" stand by the story as well) I believe beneath the hype lies a genuine haunting.

BUT it took months for me to reach to that decision, there's a lot more to the story than most people know. I just hope FT will uncover much of it - even if their conclusion is HOAX, I hope it will at least touch all bases!

Anyway, reach your own conclusions... but this story isn't dead yet!


Recomended Reading:

Overview of the story

AmityvilleTruth.com

Hoax in Amityville

Pro-haunting forum

Pro-Hoax forum

...And if you were unlucky enough to buy Ric Osuna's 2002 Amityville book
 
But it's old, and the last post was almost a year ago!

However, if the mods wish to move this to the end, then fine :)
 
sherbetbizarre said:
But it's old, and the last post was almost a year ago!

However, if the mods wish to move this to the end, then fine :)
Click to expand...

OK done.

As you are from the Amityville Truth.com site if it is a pro-hoax arguement I hope you will deliver a well argued rebuttal!!

Its this kind of debate that always makes the mag interesting :)
 
Oh, I'll be up for an arguement on Amityville, sure!

Haven't decided on the poll yet, as my answer somewhere bewteen two answers --

Yes, but it wasn't at all to the level of the book, just a minor haunting
&
Yes, and it was exactly what was in the book

I'll go for the latter, but with reservations!
 
I have to admit, it will be meaningful to see what kind of take FT has on the case, to see if they find clear evidence of a hoax (as hoax proponents claim) or if there is a trail that would lean the claims against the case as being a hoax come from people who were disenchanted with the Lutz or had reason for financial gain themselves.
 
Rick Moran's article

Here are a few points I’d like to raise regarding Rick Moran’s “Amityville Revisited” article (issue 190).

First up (not Ricks fault) the caption on page 37 identifies George and Kathy Lutz "at a press conference in the DeFeo house." Anyone with just a cursory interest in the story would know they fled the house, so they would certainly not return to hold a press conference whether their story was true or not!

The 1976 press conference was at Williams Weber’s office. (Yes, that’s Weber with one B - where was the fact-checker for this article?)

Overall Rick Moran seems to think “debunking Jay Anson’s book” and “debunking the haunting” are the same thing. They are not. This is made clear when Anson admits he embellished details – so why not go after the real story. George Lutz isn’t exactly in hiding.

PAGE 32 Moran writes, “Jay Anson was working solely from crime scene photos and the personal recollections of the Lutz family and William Webber”

PAGE 36/37 “Jay’s information came in large part from Butch’s attorney, William Webber.”
Click to expand...


This is surely untrue as Weber sued the Lutzes for choosing Anson over his proposed DeFeo book.

Weber published his own version of the haunting with writer Paul Hoffman (Good Housekeeping etc.) and both parties ended up in court.

There is no way Weber ever spoke to Anson about the Lutzes ordeal because he was opposed to that book from the start! Surely it would have come out in court that he was suing over a book he himself had participated in!

For the record Anson wrote the majority of his book from audio tapes given to him by the Lutzes before they started a new life on the West Coast. (Whether anyone believes Weber helped concoct what was on those tapes is another matter entirely)

PAGE 34 “Despite claims to the contrary, George Lutz knew Ronnie DeFeo Jr long before the murders.”
Click to expand...


Well, great. Moran knows this how? This major revelation needs DETAILS with some sort of PROOF to back-up such a claim.

In e-mail exchanges Moran tells me they shared the same boat dealer and were seen talking “many times” for “long periods” as part of DEA operation. Although Moran trusts the cop who gave him this information, I would have to question the cops memory.

What Moran staes as fact, is no more than rumour.

PAGE 34 “When Lutz bought the house he didn’t have sufficient income to meet the mortgage payments.”
Click to expand...


Yes, tales of the IRS and bad checks are found in the book and movie, but Moran seems sure it was true in real life. Did he have access to the Lutzes bank account?

Just the other day Mr Lutz stated this was not the case:

http://p214.ezboard.com/fthetruthabouttheamityvillehorrorfrm2.showMessage?topicID=516.topic

“...the mortgage was 60,000.....a bit less if I recall that the amount we had for the combined 2 houses we sold....the taxes were a bit more...but it was a negligable difference....what raelly was the kicker for us was the the savings with the boat docking fees...they were always going up and we thought of this as a real solution to a cost we were not willing to do without....we wanted to keep the boats and even boat a new one that we had never even got to use......left it in the garage........and never saw it again.......we put 20k down....and an additional 4k in closing costs and fees and furniture and heating oil expenses......we were money ahead monthly and we owned our own cars.had no bills .......and only the bigger boat was still being paid off........the auction paid off that boat and left us with about 2k or so after cleanup and auction fees.....I could be wrong on this.the files are being redone so if that surfaces ...I will update this...i really have no time right now....but I will get back to this.........thanks for posting....George........”
Click to expand...

So where does this leave the rest of the Lutz family? In the past four years they have either privately or publicly stated the house was haunted. However Moran ignores the two History Channel specials from 2000 (repeated often in the US - George and Kathy Lutz retell their story, making Moran’s comment about her being just a “sensitive” somewhat insulting.) and the Lou Gentile radio shows (2002-3) in which George, Kathy and Christopher Lutz all participated in.

As for Melissa Lutz, Moran writes that “playmate” Jodie was, “suggested by (Melissa), who as an adult today remembers drawing the picture of Jodie the Pig and giving it to her mother while in Amityville” Again, another insult. Why did Moran stop there? If he knew anything about Melissa today, he will know she also states her “playmate” was very real to her.

Father Pecoraro doesn’t escape Moran’s charges either; apparently he “later recanted (his) claims, saying he never went in the house at all.”

Again, no source for this back-tracking?

Pecoraro said he heard (not sensed) the “get out” voice under oath in WEBER VS, LUTZ, and on the TV series “In Search Of…” in 1979:

http://www.amityvillehorrortruth.com/Pecoraro.wmv

“I was blessing the sewing room. It was cold, it was really cold in there and I thought, gee, this is peculiar...because it was a lovely day out, and it was winter, yes...but it didn't account for that kind of coldness. I was also sprinkling holy water and I heard a rather deep voice behind me say "get out". It seemed so directed toward me that I was really quite startled. I felt a slap at one point...on the face. I felt somebody slap me and there was nobody there."
Click to expand...

Moran then (Page 37) attributes the “get out” voice as a Jay Anson invention! - “‘That is what is called artistic licence’, Jay Anson told me.”

So… he’s accusing a priest of using Anson’s fiction in a court of law!

PAGE 34-35: The DEA operative “parked on a side street facing the house” and witnessed “muffled roar and muzzle flash (…) as the killer walked from room to room (…) slightly after this Dawn DeFeo left the house (…) returned a few minutes later without the rifle (…) saw Butch leave the house the next morning. Twenty-four hours later another man came to the house and, within minutes, the area was swarming with police.”
Click to expand...


Not only is this story implausible, the statements within are impossible:

The call from the house that reported the murders is logged by the Suffolk County PD at 6:35pm on November 13th. FIFTEEN hours after the murders.

The call was made by a friend of DeFeo who had turned up with DeFeo and THREE other men (they drove there after Ronnie ran into Henry’s Bar, claiming he’d found his parents dead.)

There was no “lone man 24-hours later.” The police arrived on the afternoon of 13th November, as stated in the DeFeo trial and by Joel Martin (yes, he was the first reporter on the scene) Not to mention the newspapers the following morning. The very morning which Moran’s informant claims he saw the police arrive!

And while they conducted door-to-door inquires, nobody stopped to ask what this guy was doing parked outside a murder scene for “24-hours” plus?

And why was he there anyway when Moran says the case against DeFeo Snr. had been “dropped entirely”?


PAGE 37 “Butch DeFeo (…) was married some time ago behind bars”
Click to expand...


Three times in fact. First to Geraldine Gates in 1989 – who was A) Already married to a Mr Gates! And B) The main source for Ric Osuna’s laughable "The Night The DeFeo’s Died". He later married a Barbara, and is now with his current wife Tracey.


PAGE 37 “He has not commented on the case for years”
Click to expand...


Not true. He sent Lou Gentile a letter in 2002 denouncing Geraldine Gates and Ric Osuna as fraudsters. The letter was read out on Gentile’s radio show and also posted on his website for a time.

His latest comments (still mainly anti-TNTDD) can be found on Tracey DeFeo’s website at http://www.thenightexposed.net


I know FT is partial to its Hoax stories but this article does a disservice to its readers - whether you believe or disbelieve in the Amityville haunting, a more thorough account was needed in what was probably the biggest piece on the case in the UK for 20 years… Disappointing.


Any other comments appreciated!
 
sherbetbizarre: Interesting stuff - write it up and send it in to FT I'd be interested to see what the author's reply is.
 
I found the following interview at Amityville Horror Truth to be pretty informative - George Lutz interviewed just before the Penn State Univ Con, a paranormal conference, with journalist Lou Gentile in tow...

http://www.amityvillehorrortruth.com/articles/lutzinterview1.html

And here's an excpert from the build-up:

After all, there is no actual evidence that this haunting occurred... or so I thought. George Lutz did bring evidence, in fact Lutz has more evidence to prove the Amityville haunting occurred than other famous cases I had looked at, like the 'Bell Witch', or the Smurl haunting. More on that later.

Lutz's testimony of what happened during those 28 days are horrific to most... but actually quite common when compared to most haunting cases. Many other violent hauntings are actually more sensational in terms of the phenomenon occurring - during the 'Enfield Poltergeist' case, the spirit is credited with manifesting many voices which would talk out loud to investigators. Chairs and furniture would shift about in front of police officers and investigators.

At the height of the 'Bell Witch' haunting, the family was assaulted endlessly by rappings and poundings throughout the house. The family would be physically assaulted and accosted time and time again. Eventually, the 'Bell Witch' was credited with killing it's intended victim, John Bell.

During the Smurl haunting, black shadowy figures terrorized the family. Why did the Amityville haunting, which didn't appear as sensational... garner such attention and opposition, and cries of 'hoax'? The skeptics demanded 'proof'... but is there actual proof for anything paranormal in nature?

From the very beginning, it was obvious that many enthusiasts of the 'hoax' theory used the book and movie to garner information about the haunting. Most people realize in modern times that movies have a way of using literary license, and often over-dramatize or even create totally fictional scenes. It became such a problem that the phrase 'based on true events', is now standard opening monologue. When enthusiasts compared the book and movie versions to the Lutz's telling of the events... things didn't add up.

Funny part is - George Lutz will be the first person to tell you that some of the events portrayed in the book and movie aren't factual...
Click to expand...
 
"write it up and send it in to FT I'd be interested to

Thanks, Emperor. Have done just that.
 
sherbetbizarre: Super - the letter might not make this months issue but it should make the next :)
 
I have no opinion on the haunting, since I haven't looked into it closely enough; but I remember the review in the local paper when the movie came out. Although the reviewer was being facetious, he also made a valid point about the story, as a story. He was not impressed by bleeding walls, deep voices, hovering faces, etc., but he claimed to be mesmerized with horror at the scale of damage to the house, and reported that a woman nearby in theater kept moaning: "Think of the bills!"

Because that's what we keep coming back to. The motivation put forward for a hoax is economic; the defence against the hoax is also economic. I'm frequently told by people who deal in numbers that they are logical and consistent; yet in my personal life they never seem to match, and in this high-profile economics-driven case no one seems to have put all the numbers into the public arena in checkable form. We can't all interview witnesses or go to the site, but anyone can crunch the numbers, theoretically. (I have to add a column of numbers about 12 times to get the same answer twice, and there's no guarantee that'll be the correct one, so I mention this purely altruistically.)

The movie and book were created in the haunted-house tradition, where the core horror attraction is the desirable home that is unliveable. Home is supposed to be about comfort and safety; it's where you go to get away from the fears and stresses of the outside world. Haunted houses are terrifying because the horror is in the room with you and you don't have control of your own space.

And yes, those of us who are home owners do think of the bills when watching such movies!
 
Amityville murderer trying to stop film

John Harlow, Los Angeles
November 22, 2004

A MURDERER who inspired the 1979 film The Amityville Horror is trying to halt a British-directed remake because he fears it may undermine his chances of being granted parole.

Ronald DeFeo, who claimed that evil spirits made him kill his family in 1974, is serving 150 years in Green Haven maximum security prison near the Long Island town of Amityville.

DeFeo comes up for parole early next year just as the director, Andrew Douglas, is completing the latest in a series of Amityville films that have turned tragedy into one of America's most compelling ghost stories.

The original film concentrated on the Lutz family, who bought the three-storey house in Ocean Avenue where the murders had been committed 18 months earlier. They fled after 28 days.

MGM's new version goes back to the night when 23-year-old "Butch" DeFeo strode through the house, first training his high-powered rifle on his father and mother as they slept and then shooting his four siblings -- Dawn, Allison, Mark and John.

DeFeo claimed at first that his family had been shot by a mafia hitman. When chemical tests proved he had fired the rifle he changed his story to demonic possession.

At his trial the prosecution portrayed a spoilt, small-town bully who set out to kill his parents but did not want to split a $US280,000 life insurance policy with his brothers and sisters.

The Lutz family knew the history of the house but could not resist a bargain. Two years after they bought it for $US90,000, George Lutz wrote a bestselling book that claimed it was built on an Indian burial ground and was haunted by a Salem witch.

Lutz, a former marine, said the walls had oozed green slime, toilets overflowed with a "bloody flux" and strange creatures with glowing eyes appeared outside at night. He claimed to have become possessed with a desire to kill his new wife and her three children.

The book and first film turned the house into a tourist attraction. Buses filled with what neighbours called the "Amityville horribles" regularly toured the area.

While Lutz claimed in subsequent books that the family was haunted to the ends of the earth by mysterious beasts, no further supernatural activity was ever reported in Ocean Avenue.

A source at Green Haven prison said DeFeo, now 53, was "mighty angry" about the new film. "He is seeking legal advice to close it down, or at least get its release postponed until after his parole hearing," the source said. "All these Hollywood types are making money off him, and he does not like it at all."

Douglas is said to be "unconcerned" and is racing to finish the film in time for its new year premiere.
Click to expand...

Source
 
Ronald 'Butch' DeFeo Jr. – Amityville Mass Murderer – Latest Bizarre Twist with Ian Heffron

Published on 21 March 2005 | Author BROWN, Anthony G.

The voluptuous, blonde wife, of Ronald DeFeo Jr., dubbed by the media 'The Amityville Horror', is co-writing a book with a former British police constable, it can be confirmed today.

Tracey DeFeo, from New York, and Ian Heffron, from Tylorstown, Wales, have teamed up to expose every true crime writer, journalist, author, documentary maker and film producer – I guess we can include the actors and crew here, too - who have ever, or will ever earn a dime from working in the true crime genre.

Notwithstanding the fact that America's most heinous killers has tried to earn a fortune, almost from the day he slaughtered his family of six in sleepy Amityville, LI, November 1974, messrs Tracey DeFeo and Ian Heffron are penning a book, which is intended to hold all of us professional wordsmiths to account if we haven't made a donation, from our meagre earnings, to charity.

So, crime reporters around the globe, watch out!

Seemingly oblivious to the fact that the human monster that is Ronald DeFeo Jr., committed atrocities – an example below – which stunned the world, Heffron, himself dubbed by the internet 'The Dennis the Menace of Tylorstown', has recently remerged, like a Meerkat, from the shifting sands of his latest failed attempt to secure a retrial for a killer, who had already admitted total guilt over three decades ago.

No doubt the world of true crime literature will be shaking in its shoes, as the Tracey DeFeo/Ian Heffron alliance gathers momentum. But, dear colleagues, all is not lost, for neither of this dodgy duo can spell, and their command of the English language would score low points, being on a par with a 6-year-old.

Heffron, who continually misspells his co-writer's surname, as DeFoe/Defeo, and replaces trial with 'trail', has now posted his twisted intentions on the internet. These can be located with some ease by entering the man's name in any search engine.

Undaunted, however, we wait in anticipation, as to whom is to assume the lofty mantle of editor for this tome, which, by all accounts, will run to several hundred thousand pages. Maybe it will be 'Butch' DeFeo, himself?

This bold, new publishing venture will no doubt include university-educated daughter, Lorna Heffron, whom writes scathing internet critiques for true crime publications, which she has never read. Nigel Heffron, whom is blessed with the same literary skills as his erstwhile brother, and wife Mandy, who makes the tea.

We are left in some doubt as to who is going to fund the advance for this gargantuan project, and to which charity will gratefully receive the royalties. But, if Ronald DeFeo has anything to do about it, he will make sure his team's pockets are lined first.

A man of duplicitous character, a wannabe Member of Parliament, and staunch campaigner for the Death Penalty for child killers, Ian Heffron welcomes correspondence.

Well, Ian Heffron and Tracey DeFeo, take a close look at a sample of your cowardly, brutal business partner's handiwork. Then think again!
Click to expand...

[ends with a picture of one of the bodies]

Source
 
Certain members of The New Criminologist have posted on Amityville boards in the same juvenile manner as the above article - seems they've ran a smear campaign against Heffron and Tracey DeFeo because they know about Christopher Berry-Dee's manipulation of the truth in his "investigation" into the murders.

Does anyone know if Berry-Dee is a real Criminologist?

Still, at least he's finally distanced himself from Ric Osuna.


Oh, and BTW, the new movie is another "Hollywoodized" version of the Lutz story... "Jodie" is no longer a demonic figure who befriends the girl and takes the form of a pig... she's now the ghost of "Jodie" DeFeo, based on the real 13yo victim Allison DeFeo -- nich, huh?
 
My opinion (if anyone cares):

There was a demon or demon like thing around. The Pig (Jodie) and the fly's are symbols of the devil and/or demonic activity. It made the guy kill his family and it terrorized the Lutz's. My guess is that the people living in the house later DID experience stuff, but denied it to avoid too much publicity and such. Also, I definitily think it's possible that the book and/or movie were exaggerated to some extent, as that's what people often do in these situations. However, I think for the most part the book, at least, is pretty reliable.

Ok people, feel free to rip my opinion to shreds. ;)
 
Amityville FAQ

The book and movie definetly were exaggerated - no one's denied that.

A new Amityville FAQ site has just gone up --

http://www.amityvillefaq.com/

Well worth a look as yet another "version" of the story is about to hit our screens!
 
I haven't checked the Magickmind archives yet, R.I.N.G. but there's some good interviews just up at http://horror.com/

Exclusive Interview with George Lutz and Dan Farrands - Part One:
http://www.horror.com/php/article-765-1.html

Exclusive Interview with George Lutz and Dan Farrands - Part Two:
http://www.horror.com/php/article-764-1.html

Exclusive Interview with George Lutz and Dan Farrands - Part Three
http://www.horror.com/php/article-763-1.html


I highly recommend buying The Amityville Horror Special Edition DVD out tomorrow for Mr Farrands' Histories Mysteries documentaries alone :D
 
George Lutz is scheduled to give an interview on the Ghostly Talk internet radio show next Sunday, April 17th. And there are also a couple of archived interviews with Lutz (from Feb./March) in the "show archives" section of that site. I'm sure they'll talk about the new movie for the most part. Lutz is pretty angry about it.
 
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