Ancient Depictions (Petroglyphs, etc.) Of Astronomical Events

[GSX1400]

Did anyone see the report in New Scientist (10th of June 06) about some astrologer who found a stone in America into which a picture of a scorpion and another object, which he described as an eight pointed start, had been engraved? His conclusion was that it depicted a supernova in scorpio in the year 1006.

I've never read anything less scientific in my life.

For a start there is in reality no such thing as constellations such as scorpio. It is a purely cultural thing to look at groups of stars and to depict them on a two dimensional plane and then look for patterns that are reminicent of some animal or artifact and to declare these to be constellations. The stars in a constellation are in no way related to each other and are not on a two dimensional plane. Furthermore, the pictures people use to unite a given constellation bear no resemblance whatsover to the pattern of stars said to be part of a given constitution. For example the stars that make up scorpio do not resemble a scorpion in any way.

Anyway, the Europeans and Arabs etc., use the constellation idea to 'navigate' the heavens but that is not true of the American Indians. Even if they did, it would be extremely unlikely that they would call the same group of unrelated stars 'scorpio' as we do.

So, it is a stupid and extremely unscientific assumption to make to say that a picture of a scorpion and an eight point star represent a supernova in scorpio as recognised and depicted in America in 1006.

It is much more likely that the pictures actually represent a scorpion and a spider.

It is also unlikely that there is any cultural significance to the stone. Nobody has said how old the etchings are. They could have been done last week. Even if they were done as far back as 1006 it could just be somebody's doodles or else someone's attempt to explain some of the finer points of scorpion and spider morphology to a student etc.

Very unscientific and I was shocked to see it in New Scientist.

I think there is a Fortean interest here however and that is the extent to which a person will judge the past and artifacts from the past based on his or her own experience. Like this 'scientist' automatically assumes that the idea of there being constellations makes sense and must be obvious to everyone throughout history and from culture to culture, which I think shows a distinct lack of imagination.

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

The article in question is:

Native Americans recorded supernova explosion

* 16:45 05 June 2006
* NewScientist.com news service
* Zeeya Merali and Kelly Young


Prehistoric Native Americans may have carved a record of a supernova explosion that appeared in the skies a millennium ago into a rock in Arizona, US.

John Barentine, an astronomer at the Apache Point Observatory in New Mexico, came across the carving while hiking in the White Tank Mountain Regional Park in Arizona.

It depicts a scorpion and an eight-pointed star. "I had just been reading about the supernova of AD 1006 and I knew it appeared in the constellation Scorpius, so the connection flashed into my mind."

To make his case, Barentine and his colleague Gilbert A. Esquerdo, at the Planetary Science Institute, Tucson, used planetarium software to recreate the sky as it would have appeared in Arizona during the supernova's appearance and overlaid it with photographs from the site.

The supernova would have been brighter than a planet, and both it and the constellation - which is shaped like a scorpion - would have appeared just above the edge of the rock, in the same orientation depicted in the carvings. Native Americans populated the region during that period and often recorded objects thought to have magical powers, says Barentine.

"It's by no means conclusive, but I think it's strong circumstantial evidence that the art depicts the supernova," says Barentine. He announced his theory at the American Astronomical Society Meeting in Calgary, in Alberta, Canada, on Monday.

Star watchers

The supernova was recorded by star watchers in Asia, the Middle-East and Europe. But until now, nobody thought that prehistoric Native Americans followed events in the sky. "I don't think enough credit has been given to the ancient Native Americans in the past, but that might change now," Barentine told New Scientist.

If the art does represent the supernova, it would provide a useful date to help work out the age of neighbouring rock carvings, which are difficult to assess by other methods, says Barentine.

But the White Tank Mountain is not the first suspected supernova petroglyph in North America. A petroglyph at Chaco Canyon National Monument in New Mexico may depict the supernova of 4 July 1054.

Another petroglyph at White Tank may also be a recording of the AD 1054 supernova. White Tank Mountain park ranger Mark Lansing says that petroglyph looks like colliding suns and is nestled in a back canyon along with pictures of other celestial objects.

"The AD 1006 petroglyph is a little more abstract," Lansing says of Barentine's find. "I'd seen his petroglyph but not really related it to the sky for 1006. He does show what the sky may have looked like in AD 1006."

Source

I'll also move this over to Earth Mysteries.

 

[plusk]

HI GSX,

I remember watching a TV programme about South Amercian folk tales which certainly stated that they did have constellations. One of them was that of a fox.

 

[mejane]

Astrology and Astronomy both start with "A" and concern the heavens but that's the only thing they have in common

To be fair, it seems that Barentine is only saying that whoever carved the rock may have been depicting the supernova - which would have been a hard thing to miss even for a society that didn't spend countless resources on observing the stars - and that may help in determining the age of other nearby carvings.

I don't think anyone is saying that Native Americans in 1000 AD thought that that particular cluster of stars, as seen from Earth, looked like a scorpion or even paid any particular attention to it... until it went bang.

Jane.

 

[Graylien]

It's all a bit Von Daniken, isn't it? If it looks a bit like a guy wearing a big helmet, then it must be a spaceman. If it looks a bit like a star next to a scorpion, then it must be a supernova. I'm not too sure about this snippet of wisdom, either:

"They saw something, they knew it was significant and they were moved to record it," Barentine said. "In an age before science, they were scientists."
source

And there was me thinking that science was about formulating and testing hypotheses. I didn't realise that just drawing stuff counted.

 

[rynner2]

Local astronomer and storyteller Gerard Tsonakwa, a member of the Abenaki tribe of Southern Québec, recounts his tribe's story of Misengwe:

“Mars isMisengwe, the Red and Black Mask Being. Red on one side and black on the other,Misengwe sorts out good and evil. This time of year, he hunts Gitaskogak, theGreat Serpent, in the southern sky. What my people see as the great serpent,many people call the constellation Scorpius.

Misengwe's red side is turned to us thistime of year so we can see him, but at other times, he presents his black side andis invisible in the night sky.”To find the Great Serpent Gitaskogak (or Scorpio) in the sky, just wait untilspring, summer, and September and look low in the South. Misengwe (or Mars),being a planetary wanderer, can potentially be seen anywhere among the starsalong the Ecliptic, or Zodiac line including right in the Great Serpent itself! Don’tconfuse Misengwe for the bright red star that is Gitaskogak’s heart. (The ancientGreeks dubbed this starAntares, which means “Not Mars!”)

Gitaskogak (a.k.a.Gitaskog or Peetaskog) has often been seen in the big lake that Abenakis call Bitawbagok: Lake Champlain, which cuts between northwest Vermont and NewYork State. This serpent, when not in his starry abode, is often called “Champ.

”Resources:Arizona Daily Star’s “ Return to Mars”
http://www.azstarnet.com/mars2001/fact.html

http://tinyurl.com/goz52

Do I get a prize for bringing in Champ as well?

And there was me thinking that science was about formulating and testing hypotheses. I didn't realise that just drawing stuff counted.

Well, recording data provides a mass of information that one might base hypotheses on, so it is the first step to science.

It's better than
"WTF was that?"
"I dunno..."
"Me neither. Oh well, just forget it" ! 8)

 

[Mythopoeika]

Barentine isn't an archaeo-astronomer, so yes, his springing to conclusions isn't very reasoned or particularly scientific.
I notice a trend in science these days - somebody can come up a wild theory about something, and people will take notice of their idea because of that person's qualifications. An ordinary Joe on the street who comes up with exactly the same theory would be ridiculed and ignored.
What's different to the situation years ago is that now scientists feel completely confident and unrestricted in their postulations, and are quite happy to say something bonkers. They are assisted in this by the media, who will print any old guff.

 

[naitaka]

Petroglyphs in Painted Cave, near Santa Barbara, California, are said to depict a solar eclipse that took place in 1677.

http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/ancestors/chuma01.htm

 

[Graylien]

Well, recording data provides a mass of information that one might base hypotheses on, so it is the first step to science.

I take your point, but should we assume that people draw things simply to 'record data'? Look at the arguments concerning the ancient cave paintings of animals, for example. Are they simple representations of the natural world ? Were they intended for use in 'hunting magic' rituals? Or as a focus for Shamanic journeys of self-discovery?

Without knowing the belief system of the Hohokam people, it seems rather naive to describe them as prehistoric 'scientists' simply because they drew things.

 

[kiev85]

Without knowing the belief system of the Hohokam people, it seems rather naive to describe them as prehistoric 'scientists' simply because they drew things.

Completely agree...!!

Sometimes archaeologists etc like to "bum" up their sites and discoveries...as to i assume other professions such as "astrologers" do the same..

(to put it another way its a personal oppinion...for example, on an archaeological dig i was on, the site supervisor hit some rubble which she described as a "path" or "trackway"...i disagreed calling it natural spoil...

She was the supervisor, it was logged as a trackway, was published as a trackway...will remain forever as a trackway, just because she thought it was one...)



disclaimer- i do not believe astrology to be a profession..!

 

[rynner2]

Well, recording data provides a mass of information that one might base hypotheses on, so it is the first step to science.

I take your point, but should we assume that people draw things simply to 'record data'?
...
Without knowing the belief system of the Hohokam people, it seems rather naive to describe them as prehistoric 'scientists' simply because they drew things.

I didn't describe them as 'scientists', I merely pointed out that they (may have) recorded a witnessed event to keep the memory of it alive.

"Son, my grandfather drew this. It shows a strange bright star he once saw in the southern sky..."

 

[Graylien]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you were calling them scientists. I was referring to the article above where Mr Barentine comments "They saw something, they knew it was significant and they were moved to record it... In an age before science, they were scientists."

Keeping a visual record of events is surely history - not science?