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That's debatable, AlcohPwn. There is no doubt that the tsunami clobbered Knossos, but evidence exists that the Minoan civilisation continued for at least a few generations after that. It was though in something of a tailspin and evidence of burned and ransacked temples hints at military conflict or possibly revolution at some level.https://www.discovermagazine.com/pl...ami-wipe-out-a-cradle-of-western-civilization
Okay there are 2 ways of reading your comment. (1) That Minoans slouched along for a while then were subordinated by the early Greeks. (2) The Minoans were able to resuscitate their culture to the point where they were able to develop complex geared devices. While I unequivocally agree with 1, I can't support 2.
 
Okay there are 2 ways of reading your comment. (1) That Minoans slouched along for a while then were subordinated by the early Greeks. (2) The Minoans were able to resuscitate their culture to the point where they were able to develop complex geared devices. While I unequivocally agree with 1, I can't support 2.

Option 1 was what I meant.

There was clearly a degree of cross pollination between the waning Minoan culture and the waxing Mycenaean Greek culture. Even Linear B, which developed into Greek, borrowed many characters from the Minoan Linear A, so it's not much of a stretch to accept that Greek engineers/scientists developed a technology based on Minoan concepts.
 
... it's not much of a stretch to accept that Greek engineers/scientists developed a technology based on Minoan concepts.


Furthermore ... The fact that the Palaikastro plates were dies / molds implies there could have been any number of copies of the older static astronomical aid surviving to inspire and / or inform the later Greeks.

I find it easy to believe the project that produced the Antikythera Mechanism could have been sparked by someone getting fed up with having to (a) remember the complicated details of the eclipse cycle model and (b) calculate everything all over again to predict the next eclipse - each and every damned time. :frust:
 
Option 1 was what I meant. There was clearly a degree of cross pollination between the waning Minoan culture and the waxing Mycenaean Greek culture. Even Linear B, which developed into Greek, borrowed many characters from the Minoan Linear A, so it's not much of a stretch to accept that Greek engineers/scientists developed a technology based on Minoan concepts.
I think we are in agreement then for the most part. As to the notion that minoan concepts were the ones that greek engineers used, why them and not Egyptian or Babylonian? Merchants from all those areas cross-pollinated ideas. There is good evidence that Babylon had some amazing engineers and mathematicians, whom we give precious little credit to. Egypt we treat more fairly.
 
... As to the notion that minoan concepts were the ones that greek engineers used, why them and not Egyptian or Babylonian? Merchants from all those areas cross-pollinated ideas. There is good evidence that Babylon had some amazing engineers and mathematicians, whom we give precious little credit to. ...

Agreed ... The analysis of the astronomical references in the Palaikastro plates (see my link above) hinges on correlating some of the circular figure's features with the saros / saros cycle:

The saros ... is a period of exactly 223 synodic months (approximately 6585.3211 days, or 18 years, 11 days, 8 hours), that can be used to predict eclipses of the Sun and Moon. ...

The earliest discovered historical record of what is known as the saros is by Chaldean (neo-Babylonian) astronomers in the last several centuries BC. It was later known to Hipparchus, Pliny and Ptolemy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saros_(astronomy)

The architecture and operation of the Antikythera Mechanism reflects this saros cycle construct.
 
There is no doubt that the tsunami clobbered Knossos, (snip)
Knossos is up on a hill, and quite far inland. It should have been spared the effects of any conceivable tsunami. But plenty of Minoan towns on the coast were destroyed, and the Minoan towns on Thera were obliterated, as well. The downfall of Knossos was economic, and probably caused by the collapse of the Minoan economy after the disaster. Which more-or-less reinforces your point, of course.
 
Knossos is up on a hill, and quite far inland. It should have been spared the effects of any conceivable tsunami. But plenty of Minoan towns on the coast were destroyed, and the Minoan towns on Thera were obliterated, as well. The downfall of Knossos was economic, and probably caused by the collapse of the Minoan economy after the disaster. Which more-or-less reinforces your point, of course.

Just browsed my holiday snaps from Crete in 2016. this was the highest point of what's left of Knossos - a rooftop reached by a right-angled staircase. Looking down to the bay of Karteros, it's only around 2.5 km as the crow flies, which isn't much to a Tsunami. You're right though that, being on something of a hill, the palace may have escaped the worst effects of the Tsunami.

knossos.JPG
 
Virtual reconstruction and deconstruction of the Antikythera mechanism animation for the Galileo Museum in Florence.
Not a jarring accent to be heard.

 
This SciTechDaily article provides a more detailed account of the newly-announced research results ...
2,000-Year-Old Greek Astronomical Calculator: Experts Recreate a Mechanical Cosmos for the World’s First Computer

Researchers at UCL have solved a major piece of the puzzle that makes up the ancient Greek astronomical calculator known as the Antikythera Mechanism ...

Published in Scientific Reports, the paper from the multidisciplinary UCL Antikythera Research Team reveals a new display of the ancient Greek order of the Universe (Cosmos), within a complex gearing system at the front of the Mechanism. ...

Lead author Professor Tony Freeth (UCL Mechanical Engineering) explained: “Ours is the first model that conforms to all the physical evidence and matches the descriptions in the scientific inscriptions engraved on the Mechanism itself.

“The Sun, Moon, and planets are displayed in an impressive tour de force of ancient Greek brilliance.” ...

Whilst great progress has been made over the last century to understand how it worked, studies in 2005 using 3D X-rays and surface imaging enabled researchers to show how the Mechanism predicted eclipses and calculated the variable motion of the Moon.

However, until now, a full understanding of the gearing system at the front of the device has eluded the best efforts of researchers. ...

Inscriptions on the back cover include a description of the cosmos display, with the planets moving on rings and indicated by marker beads. It was this display that the team worked to reconstruct. ...

The discovery brings the research team a step closer to understanding the full capabilities of the Antikythera Mechanism and how accurately it was able to predict astronomical events. ...

FULL STORY: https://scitechdaily.com/2000-year-...hanical-cosmos-for-the-worlds-first-computer/
 
Here are the bibliographic details and abstract for the published research report. The full report is accessible at the link below.

Freeth, T., Higgon, D., Dacanalis, A. et al.
A Model of the Cosmos in the ancient Greek Antikythera Mechanism.
Sci Rep 11, 5821 (2021).
https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-021-84310-w

Abstract
The Antikythera Mechanism, an ancient Greek astronomical calculator, has challenged researchers since its discovery in 1901. Now split into 82 fragments, only a third of the original survives, including 30 corroded bronze gearwheels. Microfocus X-ray Computed Tomography (X-ray CT) in 2005 decoded the structure of the rear of the machine but the front remained largely unresolved. X-ray CT also revealed inscriptions describing the motions of the Sun, Moon and all five planets known in antiquity and how they were displayed at the front as an ancient Greek Cosmos. Inscriptions specifying complex planetary periods forced new thinking on the mechanization of this Cosmos, but no previous reconstruction has come close to matching the data. Our discoveries lead to a new model, satisfying and explaining the evidence. Solving this complex 3D puzzle reveals a creation of genius—combining cycles from Babylonian astronomy, mathematics from Plato’s Academy and ancient Greek astronomical theories.

FULL REPORT: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-84310-w
 
Has anyone thought that the reason no subsequent examples of the device have been discovered is that it didnt work, or didnt work to a high enough degree of accuracy and therefore any further development went back in the smelting pot?
 
Has anyone thought that the reason no subsequent examples of the device have been discovered is that it didnt work, or didnt work to a high enough degree of accuracy and therefore any further development went back in the smelting pot?

(1) If that were the case it wouldn't have been lost getting transported across the sea (presumably to Rome, as a prize). If it had been decided to be junk it would have been scrapped locally.

(2) Once the mechanism was subjected to close scrutiny as a calendrical / astronomical calculator it was recognized to be uncannily accurate and crafted to incorporate a lot of astronomical knowledge that surpassed expectations and beliefs about ancient science. For example, the latest research breakthrough reported above involved recognition that the Greeks knew about a pair of planetary cycles for Venus and Saturn - cycles spanning periods of over 400 years each.

(3) Such a specialized and useful device wouldn't have been widely copied or distributed. There may well have been other examples, if only similar ones unrelated to this specimen. Archimedes was alleged to have developed one or more extraordinarily sophisticated horary / astronomical devices, and it's been common to assume these claims referred to the Antikythera Mechanism. Maybe they didn't; maybe they referred to some other device(s) that have been lost (or at least not re-discovered yet). Furthermore, any copies or similar examples could well have been scrapped for their metal at any time down through the ensuing centuries. The Antikythera Mechanism may have been the only such device beyond the reach of recyclers.
 
No, it was on the booty ship because it was as desirable as the art...if not even more so.

The others were scavenged by Steampunks for sources for cogs for junk jewellery.
 
Just turned on the red button service on bbc and saw this:

Scientists unlock mysteries of world's oldest 'computer'

A 2,000-year-old device often referred to as the world's oldest "computer" has been recreated by scientists trying to understand how it worked.

The Antikythera Mechanism has baffled experts since it was found on a Roman-era shipwreck in Greece in 1901.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-56377567
 
(1) If that were the case it wouldn't have been lost getting transported across the sea (presumably to Rome, as a prize). If it had been decided to be junk it would have been scrapped locally.

(2) Once the mechanism was subjected to close scrutiny as a calendrical / astronomical calculator it was recognized to be uncannily accurate and crafted to incorporate a lot of astronomical knowledge that surpassed expectations and beliefs about ancient science. For example, the latest research breakthrough reported above involved recognition that the Greeks knew about a pair of planetary cycles for Venus and Saturn - cycles spanning periods of over 400 years each.

(3) Such a specialized and useful device wouldn't have been widely copied or distributed. There may well have been other examples, if only similar ones unrelated to this specimen. Archimedes was alleged to have developed one or more extraordinarily sophisticated horary / astronomical devices, and it's been common to assume these claims referred to the Antikythera Mechanism. Maybe they didn't; maybe they referred to some other device(s) that have been lost (or at least not re-discovered yet). Furthermore, any copies or similar examples could well have been scrapped for their metal at any time down through the ensuing centuries. The Antikythera Mechanism may have been the only such device beyond the reach of recyclers.
Yeah to add to #3. This thing would have been fantastically expensive to build. Owning it would have been a major status symbol... but only to those who understood what it was. Which seemingly wasn't common. Most people would have seen it as little more than a novelty not worth the expense.
 
As part of an international team, Dr Tony Freeth has been a central figure in an extraordinary voyage of discovery: every new revelation has reinforced a sense of shock about this highly sophisticated ancient Greek astronomical calculating machine. It is one of the true wonders of the ancient world.

Stanford guest lecture series. Gives a good timeline of prior academic research by Price et al. I am finding it easy to follow yet mindboggling yet fascinating.

 
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Ok, so if his ideas are right(and they probably are), then this devices was probably cargo. It doesn't make a lot of sense to have a device this fantastically complex and sophisticated for a navigational instrument. Also, many of it's functions seem to be useless for navigation completely.

Predicting eclipses for example? AFAIK that particular technique used by the Greeks(Lunar almanac) requires the location of the observer to be a constant. IE the device would have fully failed to predict eclipses over, say... Nan Madol or New York, because it's predicting if there will be an eclipse visible over Greece. So the device, while portable, wasn't USEFUL for travel purposes.
 
Just turned on the red button service on bbc and saw this:

Scientists unlock mysteries of world's oldest 'computer'

A 2,000-year-old device often referred to as the world's oldest "computer" has been recreated by scientists trying to understand how it worked.

The Antikythera Mechanism has baffled experts since it was found on a Roman-era shipwreck in Greece in 1901.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-56377567
The 'computer' bit does annoy me. Yes, it might be pedantically correct, but the average person reading that headline is going to picture something completely different to this mechanism, unless they are old enough to have used say a slide rule. (I am).

The 'recreation' is impressive but please let us remember it is only a postulate? None the worse for that, as long as people don't assume it is infallible.

Anyway an abacus is also a 'computer' and I suspect they have been around longer - they go back to at least 300-200 BC
 
The 'computer' bit does annoy me. Yes, it might be pedantically correct, but the average person reading that headline is going to picture something completely different to this mechanism, unless they are old enough to have used say a slide rule. (I am).

The 'recreation' is impressive but please let us remember it is only a postulate? None the worse for that, as long as people don't assume it is infallible.

Anyway an abacus is also a 'computer' and I suspect they have been around longer - they go back to at least 300-200 BC
I'd say this device is more akin to an old mechanical calculator or adding machine. An abacus doesn't actually have mechanisms. Building one doesn't require much in the way of mechanical skill either.
 
This new Scientific American article provides a good overview of the decades-long research into the Antikythera Mechanism and presents the latest batch of findings and hypotheses. These primarily relate to the gears and drive wheel on the mechanism's front surface.
An Ancient Greek Astronomical Calculation Machine Reveals New Secrets

... The lump is known as the Antikythera mechanism, an extraordinary object that has befuddled historians and scientists for more than 120 years. Over the decades the original mass split into 82 fragments, leaving a fiendishly difficult jigsaw puzzle for researchers to put back together. The device appears to be a geared astronomical calculation machine of immense complexity. Today we have a reasonable grasp of some of its workings, but there are still unsolved mysteries. We know it is at least as old as the shipwreck it was found in, which has been dated to between 60 and 70 B.C.E., but other evidence suggests it may have been made around 200 B.C.E. ...

In March 2021 my group at University College London, known as the UCL Antikythera Research Team, published a new analysis of the machine. ... Our paper posits a new explanation for the gearing on the front of the mechanism, where the evidence had previously been unresolved. We now have an even better appreciation for the sophistication of the device—an understanding that challenges many of our preconceptions about the technological capabilities of the ancient Greeks. ...

The most prominent feature of the front of the largest fragment is the main drive wheel, which was designed to rotate once a year. It is not a flat disc like most of the other gears; this one has four spokes and is covered in puzzling features. ...

We now understood how the front display matched the description in the back-cover user’s manual, with the sun and planets shown by marker beads on concentric rings. The front cover also displayed the moon’s phase, position and age (the number of days from a new moon), and the dragon hand that showed eclipse years and seasons.

With the concentric rings for the planets, we realized that we could now make sense of the front-cover inscription as well. ...

With the Antikythera mechanism, we are clearly not at the end of our story. We believe our work is a significant advance, but there are still mysteries to be solved. The UCL Antikythera Research Team is not certain that our reconstruction is entirely correct because of the huge loss of evidence. It is very hard to match all of the surviving information. Regardless, we can now see more clearly than ever what a towering achievement this object represents.
FULL STORY (With Photos / Illustrations): https://www.scientificamerican.com/...ical-calculation-machine-reveals-new-secrets/
 
A newly submitted (but not yet peer-reviewed) research report claims the Antikythera Mechanism's logical "start date" (starting point for the calculations embedded in its design) was 22 December 178 BCE. This claim doesn't seem to be getting much support from other relevant researchers.
World's first computer, the Antikythera Mechanism, 'started up' in 178 B.C., scientists claim

Not everyone agrees with the conclusion.

The mysterious Antikythera mechanism, thought by some to be the world's first computer, was first "started up" on Dec. 22, 178 B.C., archaeologists have now found. ...

Over the years, researchers have painstakingly pieced together the many fragments of the Antikythera mechanism to figure out how it was created and how it would have been used 2,000 or so years ago. There are many questions plaguing the device: Who made it? Where did they live? Why create it and what start date did it have? Now, a team of scientists has determined that "turn on" date, detailing their findings online March 28 on the preprint database arXiv, an online journal where research can be uploaded before peer review.

However, scientists not affiliated with the study cast doubt on this claim, telling Live Science that the start date was probably in 204 B.C. ...
FULL STORY: https://www.livescience.com/antikythera-mechanism-start-date-found
 
I'm posting this question for all of our newest and most freshest posters.

What is it, the Antikythera Mechanism, and how did they do it all that long ago gone time ago?
 
I'm posting this question for all of our newest and most freshest posters.

What is it, the Antikythera Mechanism, and how did they do it all that long ago gone time ago?
seems to be most likely a mechanical almanac of sort, and... very very carefully.

yeah, there's a LOT we don't know.
 
I've always been interested in the Antikythera Mechanism.

So much intricacy, such sophisticated engineering, made more amazing given how ancient it is.
 
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