Anyone Seen A Ghost?
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Anonymous
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Messages to the family
One of my earliest memories is of the trouble my Great Grandfather got me into.
As a very young child I used to visit my Grandparents, who also lived with my Great Grandparents. My Great Grandad used to take me into his greenhouse and I would help him watering seedlings etc. The greenhouse was a favourite place of his.
On one occasion I was taken to the house, and sent out into the garden to play. Clearly something was wrong, and people were talking urgently. I mooched around outside and finally went into the greehouse. While I stood checking out the plants and enjoying the damp soil smells Great Grandad started talking to me. Clearly he was playing a game because I could not see him but he made me promise to go indoors and deliver a message to Great Grandma and the others. Now you know whats coming - pretty obvious huh
Yep little Shaun goes in, tugs a few trouser legs to get attention and says "Great Grandad says not to be sad, and not to worry. Everything will be alright and he is still here"
There was a moment of silence before my old man shut me up with a deft slap. Everybody wanted to know why I should have made such a terrible thing up. Great Grandma burst into tears. At this point my Mother tries to explain to me that he had died the day before, and took me outside to explain what that meant in terms of him going away, and how we would never see him again. When I argued that was wrong because I could hear him she said to keep that my secret, and not mention it in front of Dad.
If it wasn't for the shock of the slap I probably wouldn't even remember the incident.
Iv'e got a few simpler sightings if anyones at all interested, but this is the big one.
:spinning
One of my earliest memories is of the trouble my Great Grandfather got me into.
As a very young child I used to visit my Grandparents, who also lived with my Great Grandparents. My Great Grandad used to take me into his greenhouse and I would help him watering seedlings etc. The greenhouse was a favourite place of his.
On one occasion I was taken to the house, and sent out into the garden to play. Clearly something was wrong, and people were talking urgently. I mooched around outside and finally went into the greehouse. While I stood checking out the plants and enjoying the damp soil smells Great Grandad started talking to me. Clearly he was playing a game because I could not see him but he made me promise to go indoors and deliver a message to Great Grandma and the others. Now you know whats coming - pretty obvious huh
Yep little Shaun goes in, tugs a few trouser legs to get attention and says "Great Grandad says not to be sad, and not to worry. Everything will be alright and he is still here"
There was a moment of silence before my old man shut me up with a deft slap. Everybody wanted to know why I should have made such a terrible thing up. Great Grandma burst into tears. At this point my Mother tries to explain to me that he had died the day before, and took me outside to explain what that meant in terms of him going away, and how we would never see him again. When I argued that was wrong because I could hear him she said to keep that my secret, and not mention it in front of Dad.
If it wasn't for the shock of the slap I probably wouldn't even remember the incident.
Iv'e got a few simpler sightings if anyones at all interested, but this is the big one.
:spinning
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Of course we're interested. 
So why do you think your mum said to keep it a secret from your dad? Had she experienced something similar do you think?
It's a lovely story, and very reassuring.
So why do you think your mum said to keep it a secret from your dad? Had she experienced something similar do you think?
It's a lovely story, and very reassuring.
Unfortunately, a majority of the "generation" before us
didn't seem to have room for the paranormal in their lives.
In fact, I can remember many who didn't have room
for joy or wonder, either... pity...
Today, I know many people who would take great
comfort and happiness from a message like that!
Well told, SatyrUK!
TVgeek
didn't seem to have room for the paranormal in their lives.
In fact, I can remember many who didn't have room
for joy or wonder, either... pity...
Today, I know many people who would take great
comfort and happiness from a message like that!
Well told, SatyrUK!
TVgeek
A
Anonymous
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Spooky Angel said:
My Mum however is no such thing! she has also over the years had the odd thing happen.
I've never had another directed kind of experience. All others have been just observations. (I'll drip them out rather than stick them in one post)
Just recently I was walking my dog over some nature reserve/parkland and smelt woodsmoke. It did not register that it was odd until the sound of a rapidly approaching horse made me spin round in an attempt ensure I could get out of it's way. Nothing there, however I could hear the hooves thunder right past me, within a few feet but I could not see it. The smell receded with the sound. About 1/2 mile away there is a sign marking the site of an old wooden fort, although nothing remains to be seen and it is of little interest but the sound was headed towards it.
At the time I just assumed I was going to be mown down by a young girl riding a pony she couldn't handle. Ahh jodpurs!
:eek!!!!:
As TVGeek rightly surmised the family just had no time for such things. I think they were very straightlaced and frequent church goers, and it was upsetting to them. (Not sure why) This was the reason for keeping quiet.
My Mum however is no such thing! she has also over the years had the odd thing happen.
I've never had another directed kind of experience. All others have been just observations. (I'll drip them out rather than stick them in one post)
Just recently I was walking my dog over some nature reserve/parkland and smelt woodsmoke. It did not register that it was odd until the sound of a rapidly approaching horse made me spin round in an attempt ensure I could get out of it's way. Nothing there, however I could hear the hooves thunder right past me, within a few feet but I could not see it. The smell receded with the sound. About 1/2 mile away there is a sign marking the site of an old wooden fort, although nothing remains to be seen and it is of little interest but the sound was headed towards it.
At the time I just assumed I was going to be mown down by a young girl riding a pony she couldn't handle. Ahh jodpurs!
:eek!!!!:
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You'd think religious ppl would embrace experiences like this, as it's direct proof of an after life.
From observation, Spooky, church is "safe" proof
of the afterlife... no one has their worldview shaken
up by events and promises from several millenia ago.
But when confronted with immediate or tangible
evidence of survival beyond death... many people
aren't equiped to "get their heads around" that.
It is changing... or at least the people I surround myself
with seem to be much more open to this type of thing.
Like I said... its a pity...
TVgeek
P.S. My niece and nephew have both recently seen
"someone" who disappears quickly in one of their farm outbuildings... I'll get the complete story and post ASAP!
of the afterlife... no one has their worldview shaken
up by events and promises from several millenia ago.
But when confronted with immediate or tangible
evidence of survival beyond death... many people
aren't equiped to "get their heads around" that.
It is changing... or at least the people I surround myself
with seem to be much more open to this type of thing.
Like I said... its a pity...
TVgeek
P.S. My niece and nephew have both recently seen
"someone" who disappears quickly in one of their farm outbuildings... I'll get the complete story and post ASAP!
A
Anonymous
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I was outside, getting some fresh air, waiting for my boyfriend to finish locking up the pub I was working in. It always took a while as the landlady had a little puppy that was always was excited to see you. In the ten minutes that I was waiting for him to join me I stood and watched what I believed to be a dodgy bloke standing on the bridge. At first I thought he was on the pick up. It was that sort of area. Then when a number of people had walked passed and they had paid him no attention I decided he was going to see if he could break into the pub after seeing us leave. When my boyfriend got down I suggested we go back in to warn the Landlady. He just gave me an odd look and said, what bloke. Ipointed at the man and said "that one, there, the one thats walking towards us." At this point my boyfriend turned around and the bloke just disappeared in front of my eyes.
Since that day I have seen many people that then arent there, shaddows and other wierd things. That many I could write a book!
Since that day I have seen many people that then arent there, shaddows and other wierd things. That many I could write a book!
escargot
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Whoooooooooooooooo Lynsey, what a maaad thing to happen!
You need to tell us ALL about it. We are all ears. We love ghosties.
I to see people in just the same way as you saw that disappearing chap, spooky isn't it? But not until afterwards- at the time it feels normal.
You need to tell us ALL about it. We are all ears. We love ghosties.
I to see people in just the same way as you saw that disappearing chap, spooky isn't it? But not until afterwards- at the time it feels normal.
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I lived in house on the Isle of Wight which was definitely haunted. My brother's bedroom always smelt of stale tobacco, no matter how much we shampood the carpet and filled it with air freshners and left the window open. Then someone told us that their dad, a window cleaner, had been cleaning the windows and had seen an old man in a rocking chair smoking a pipe. The old man had been dead a couple of years.
I was always seeing puffs of smoke/mist, varying from black to grey to white. Sometimes if I was ironing in the front room, I would look up, expecting to see someone in the doorway, and there'd be a column of mist, about person heigt, moving across the doorway. There was a small puff of white mist that went up and down the stairs, and I could see it when I was doing the ironing - it was like a child playing peek-a-boo on the stairs.
Then one day I actually saw the child. My stepsister was upstairs and I called out to her. Just as I did, I turned round, and a little girl dressed in white, slightly blurry like an underdeveloped photo went charging past me. I turned to see where she went - and (surprise, surprise) she'd gone. She literally came within inches of me. I told my stepmum, as I was actually pretty scared by the experience, and she said that at night if she went to the bathroom, my stepsister could hear a little girl crying outside the door.
My dad is entirely sceptical about anything even vaguely paranormal, (he was an undertaker, so I suppose it's best he doesn't believe in ghosts!) but even he was freaked out by the story of the little girl.
I've had loads of other ghostly experiences, such as one that broke a guitar string, another that kept throwing money around, one that followed my down the stairs, and another that my boyfriend saw in the bathroom, standing by the mirror combing her hair.
I was always seeing puffs of smoke/mist, varying from black to grey to white. Sometimes if I was ironing in the front room, I would look up, expecting to see someone in the doorway, and there'd be a column of mist, about person heigt, moving across the doorway. There was a small puff of white mist that went up and down the stairs, and I could see it when I was doing the ironing - it was like a child playing peek-a-boo on the stairs.
Then one day I actually saw the child. My stepsister was upstairs and I called out to her. Just as I did, I turned round, and a little girl dressed in white, slightly blurry like an underdeveloped photo went charging past me. I turned to see where she went - and (surprise, surprise) she'd gone. She literally came within inches of me. I told my stepmum, as I was actually pretty scared by the experience, and she said that at night if she went to the bathroom, my stepsister could hear a little girl crying outside the door.
My dad is entirely sceptical about anything even vaguely paranormal, (he was an undertaker, so I suppose it's best he doesn't believe in ghosts!) but even he was freaked out by the story of the little girl.
I've had loads of other ghostly experiences, such as one that broke a guitar string, another that kept throwing money around, one that followed my down the stairs, and another that my boyfriend saw in the bathroom, standing by the mirror combing her hair.
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Anonymous
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Yet another pub story, but then that was my trade for a number of years. The pub was an old staging post and what was a pool room on the side had been a Masonic Temple. The place was Quite a mad one to live in. I had my possesions moved in one night by three of my friends. They were going to stay the night as it was quite a distance they had to travel to get my stuff. The pub was quite big so all four of us had a room each. It was just gone midnight when I heard the pub doors being shaken. I just thought that whoever it was need'nt think that rattling the doors would get them a drink after time and when I was about to turn in. At this point the internal doors started being shaken. I figured it wasnt someone trying to get in but someone trying to get out. I put on my dressing gown and was going to go downstairs when I heard alot of glass breaking. There was no phone as we where waiting installation and I had assumed my friends where asleep. I decided to leave whoever it was down there. They wouldnt be able to get out and at least they would be calmer or out cold in the morning when I could deal with it. Eventually the smashing glass stopped and I eventually fell asleep.
In the morning I went down nervously not knowing quite what to expect. There was no glass, no breakages, no open doors, no people. 'must have been a dream'
One by one my three friends awoke. Each of them asked what on earth I had been up to smashing glasses in the early hours!
Had we all had the same dream or was it somthing else. I looked into some of the history of the building. There had been a fire there 150yrs ago. One person had been trapped inside and had been reported to have tried to smash his way out of the windows but they where too small. The doors where all locked. So after a little discussion we figured that must have been what we had all heard that night.
In the morning I went down nervously not knowing quite what to expect. There was no glass, no breakages, no open doors, no people. 'must have been a dream'
One by one my three friends awoke. Each of them asked what on earth I had been up to smashing glasses in the early hours!
Had we all had the same dream or was it somthing else. I looked into some of the history of the building. There had been a fire there 150yrs ago. One person had been trapped inside and had been reported to have tried to smash his way out of the windows but they where too small. The doors where all locked. So after a little discussion we figured that must have been what we had all heard that night.
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Anonymous
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Dansette said:
Personally I find that very unsettling. Shudder.
Lynsey said:
Personally I find that very unsettling. Shudder.
Lynsey said:
Cool. Four seperated (and unprepped) people hearing the same event. Nice and perplexing. Did the same thing ever happen again, or was each event different and a one off?
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Anonymous
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Lynsey's crashing and banging spook reminded me of a little one off that happened to me just after I moved away from home.
I had rented a small place, and came home to find an awful racket going on in my living room. The (closed) door was shaking violently and what was obviously a nasty fight was going on. But what the hell were people doing in my place! I was petrified, but determined to get them out so grabbed a weapon from the kitchen and burst into the shaking room. Nothing, just silence, not a thing out of place.
Never had another strange thing happen there, just that.
I had rented a small place, and came home to find an awful racket going on in my living room. The (closed) door was shaking violently and what was obviously a nasty fight was going on. But what the hell were people doing in my place! I was petrified, but determined to get them out so grabbed a weapon from the kitchen and burst into the shaking room. Nothing, just silence, not a thing out of place.
Never had another strange thing happen there, just that.
A
Anonymous
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Since the smashing glass incident there was the odd disappearing man at the bar. A locked, bolted and tied door that would open itself, the normal disappearing keys/purses that appeared in locked unused rooms. The smell of lavender and a kindly hand touching your head and a black shaddow that crawled under the bed and literally shook it whilst I was on the phone to a friend, needless to say she zoomed round within seconds due to my frantic screaming. As soon as she reached the stairs the bed dropped back down and stopped shaking. She found me glued to the spot wide eyed. I spent the night in the lounge.
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Anonymous
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It wasnt above a hairdressers was it?
Or did you get spoons thrown at you?:hmm:
escargot
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Hoooooooooooooo
The BF, who gets unsuccesfully haunted (in the sense that he isn't scared!) from time to time had another dose today.
He went downstairs at work to a warehouse area where there are large piles of ceramics on pallets. On his way back a stack of pallets in the corner rattled noisily as if someone were shaking it.
He was alone- nobody anywhere near.
This happened next door to the washroom where he was happy to be haunted briefly a month or so ago.
The location- a building in Nile Street, Tunstall, Stoke.
The BF, who gets unsuccesfully haunted (in the sense that he isn't scared!) from time to time had another dose today.
He went downstairs at work to a warehouse area where there are large piles of ceramics on pallets. On his way back a stack of pallets in the corner rattled noisily as if someone were shaking it.
He was alone- nobody anywhere near.
This happened next door to the washroom where he was happy to be haunted briefly a month or so ago.
The location- a building in Nile Street, Tunstall, Stoke.
A
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Lynsey:
No, just a terraced house. No objects thrown about. If they had been I would have packed and left! It never felt odd there, but the "fight in the living room" sounded and felt totally real. At the time I was too young and obsessed with women and booze to notice anything subtle!
A
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Lynsey:
You spent the night in the lounge? In the same building? I would have prescribed fire, and plenty of it. Sorry, but I draw the line at that - shiver.
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Anonymous
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Just thought I'd ask. Lived above a hairdressers 10 or so years ago, the same year as ghostwatch was televised. I had a spoon thrown at me from around a corner. From the bathroom. It had been a place of previous stabbings, three I think. Odd place, Shouting, banging, screws coming up from the floor, toilet flushing itself, stereo turning itself on on a unused radio frequency, that sort of thing. It was my first obvious experience. Funnily enough thoughh, when the spoon got thrown at me I packet and moved myself into my boyfriends mother. The boyfriend came home from work to find me packing, saw the look on my face and just helped me. Think he guested that was the last straw. He used to see alot of things too. Think that meeting someone who is open to helps you to be open to the experiences. Now thats all I seem to be. Bit of a odd experience magnet.
SimonBurchell
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Around 1981 I lived in a council house on the outskirts of Farnham, Surrey. It was a strange place to live, when no-one else was home I would hear someone moving around in the kitchen, opening and shutting cupboards, moving cutlery etc. Thinking my parents had arrived home, I would go and look...no-one there, back to the living room and after a short while I would begin to hear the same sounds again, with the same result.
I hated being in my bedroom alone, when I was sat at my desk doing my homework or reading I would often have such an intense feeling that someone was standing behind watching me that I would have to leave the room.
Once I left a book (The Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy) on my desk, went out of the room for a sec, came back to grab the book and...it wasn't there. I turned the whole house upside down looking for it, everyone in my family denied seeing it or moving it, in the end I gave up in frustration. A few days later it reappeared exactly where I had left it. I hope the ghost enjoyed it, it must have been boring just staring at me doing my homework.
My most memoriable experience was one weekday, both myself and my brother were off school (my brother was sick, I was just pretending to be). I was in my room, my brother was in another bedroom, no-one else was home. Anyway, I heard crying coming from the front bedroom, and stood outside the door listening to make sure...yep, definately crying. Since my brother was in there, and was genuinely ill, I went in to see what was wrong...and he was sat on the bed, happily drawing. Definately no crying. I asked him anyway but he said he was OK, and hadn't been crying. So I went out and shut the door, and again clearly heard crying coming from inside the bedroom. I went in again to ask my brother if he was definately OK, he said yes and obviously hadn't been crying, so I went out again and shut the door, again I could clearly hear crying coming from inside. This time I just gave up, puzzled, and went back to my room.
Anyway, after a year living in the house we moved to a nearby street, partly due to ghostly goings on, partly due to unpleasant neighbours that had just moved in next door. On the day we moved out our parents told us that we were moving because the place was haunted, they had found out shortly after moving in that a woman had killed herself and her three children (although not in that order) in that same house. Spooky.
More recently, maybe two years ago, I went to Methven's Booksellers in Woking, just browsing. I went upstairs and wanted to go down a narrow, dead-end aisle between a table piled with books and some bookshelves to look at the end section, but there was a lady down there looking at the books, so I stopped by the entrance to the aisle and looked at some other books while I waited for her to leave. I could see her out of the corner of my eye, flicking through a book. After waiting a while I got bored and decided to go down the aisle anyway...I looked up and no-one was there. The aisle was too narrow for her to have passed me without asking permission. I was, to say the least, very surprised. I looked through the whole upstairs section and she wasn't there, and I hadn't heard anyone go downstairs. She just looked like a normal lady, except (and I only realised this afterwards) that she had been wearing a heavy overcoat and a scarf, on a hot summer's day.
I hated being in my bedroom alone, when I was sat at my desk doing my homework or reading I would often have such an intense feeling that someone was standing behind watching me that I would have to leave the room.
Once I left a book (The Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy) on my desk, went out of the room for a sec, came back to grab the book and...it wasn't there. I turned the whole house upside down looking for it, everyone in my family denied seeing it or moving it, in the end I gave up in frustration. A few days later it reappeared exactly where I had left it. I hope the ghost enjoyed it, it must have been boring just staring at me doing my homework.
My most memoriable experience was one weekday, both myself and my brother were off school (my brother was sick, I was just pretending to be). I was in my room, my brother was in another bedroom, no-one else was home. Anyway, I heard crying coming from the front bedroom, and stood outside the door listening to make sure...yep, definately crying. Since my brother was in there, and was genuinely ill, I went in to see what was wrong...and he was sat on the bed, happily drawing. Definately no crying. I asked him anyway but he said he was OK, and hadn't been crying. So I went out and shut the door, and again clearly heard crying coming from inside the bedroom. I went in again to ask my brother if he was definately OK, he said yes and obviously hadn't been crying, so I went out again and shut the door, again I could clearly hear crying coming from inside. This time I just gave up, puzzled, and went back to my room.
Anyway, after a year living in the house we moved to a nearby street, partly due to ghostly goings on, partly due to unpleasant neighbours that had just moved in next door. On the day we moved out our parents told us that we were moving because the place was haunted, they had found out shortly after moving in that a woman had killed herself and her three children (although not in that order) in that same house. Spooky.
More recently, maybe two years ago, I went to Methven's Booksellers in Woking, just browsing. I went upstairs and wanted to go down a narrow, dead-end aisle between a table piled with books and some bookshelves to look at the end section, but there was a lady down there looking at the books, so I stopped by the entrance to the aisle and looked at some other books while I waited for her to leave. I could see her out of the corner of my eye, flicking through a book. After waiting a while I got bored and decided to go down the aisle anyway...I looked up and no-one was there. The aisle was too narrow for her to have passed me without asking permission. I was, to say the least, very surprised. I looked through the whole upstairs section and she wasn't there, and I hadn't heard anyone go downstairs. She just looked like a normal lady, except (and I only realised this afterwards) that she had been wearing a heavy overcoat and a scarf, on a hot summer's day.
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If ghosts look like ordinary ppl, it does make me wonder how many we see day to day. Scary thought.
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Umm both? :err:
SimonBurchell
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Spooky angel said:If ghosts look like ordinary ppl, it does make me wonder how many we see day to day. Scary thought.
I thought the same myself...If I hadn't have waited for the lady to leave, and had just gone somewhere else, I would just have thought she was an ordinary person and would never have given her a second thought.
SimonBurchell
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Dirtybob said:
She might even have cured my book addiction...
Tyger_Lily
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My best friend lived in a weird flat at one time. It was a masionette with the upstairs downstairs and the downstairs upstairs. The bathroom had no natural light and felt really claustrophobic if you shut the door. Everyone I knew who spent anytime there always said the preferred to wee with the door open.
Odd things happened that we laughed off but after a while they began to freak her out. She only stayed there 6 months...
The first thing that happened was if you walked in or out of her bedroom then the phone in her room would give half a ring . We always put this down to a dodgy wire or a magnetic field or something. One night (about 2am) the phone started ringing as if someone kept walking in and out, her boyfriend at the time, a big burly Scotsman pooed his pants as it only stopped when she said "Oh please, we're really trying to get some sleep".
This happened on a few occasions and would stop if you asked it. Her bedroom used to get icy cold and I mean icy cold. You could often huff your breath and see it even with the radiator on.
One night we got a bit lashed and I stayed over and I asked if the phone had been mis-behaving recently. She replied that it hadn't for a while. Within 10 mins it started ringing and we asked it to stop which it did. I must admit I was petrified but full of Dutch courage so I asked "it" to make the phone ring again. The phone did start to ring properly this time, which made us both literally sh*t ourselves, and after we calmed down we realised only the downstairs one in her room was ringing. The upstairs one in the living room remained silent and the ansaphone didn't kick in after 6 rings. We checked it all was plugged in and not switched off and spent a night in bed with each other (as we were so scared), pretrified and freezing to death!!
On another occasion we heard her flat mate come in and slam the front door. We expected him to charge up the stairs to the living room but he never. We both even went down to check if he was there but the bottom part of the flat was dark and he definately hadn't come home.
The final thing that freaked us was her neighbours telling her they'd heard the party she had one Saturday night. She said she'd not had a party but friends over for dinner and then we'd all gone to the pub at approx 9.30. Her neighbours were insistant they'd heard us all charging up and down the stairs and blasts of music going on until about 2.30am, which was the time that we'd got in from a club we'd been to after the pub. Her neighbours said they were quite miffed not to be invited as it sounded quite a riot and wouldn't believe we'd left the house hours before.
She moved out not long after that! Can't think why though!
Odd things happened that we laughed off but after a while they began to freak her out. She only stayed there 6 months...
The first thing that happened was if you walked in or out of her bedroom then the phone in her room would give half a ring . We always put this down to a dodgy wire or a magnetic field or something. One night (about 2am) the phone started ringing as if someone kept walking in and out, her boyfriend at the time, a big burly Scotsman pooed his pants as it only stopped when she said "Oh please, we're really trying to get some sleep".
This happened on a few occasions and would stop if you asked it. Her bedroom used to get icy cold and I mean icy cold. You could often huff your breath and see it even with the radiator on.
One night we got a bit lashed and I stayed over and I asked if the phone had been mis-behaving recently. She replied that it hadn't for a while. Within 10 mins it started ringing and we asked it to stop which it did. I must admit I was petrified but full of Dutch courage so I asked "it" to make the phone ring again. The phone did start to ring properly this time, which made us both literally sh*t ourselves, and after we calmed down we realised only the downstairs one in her room was ringing. The upstairs one in the living room remained silent and the ansaphone didn't kick in after 6 rings. We checked it all was plugged in and not switched off and spent a night in bed with each other (as we were so scared), pretrified and freezing to death!!
On another occasion we heard her flat mate come in and slam the front door. We expected him to charge up the stairs to the living room but he never. We both even went down to check if he was there but the bottom part of the flat was dark and he definately hadn't come home.
The final thing that freaked us was her neighbours telling her they'd heard the party she had one Saturday night. She said she'd not had a party but friends over for dinner and then we'd all gone to the pub at approx 9.30. Her neighbours were insistant they'd heard us all charging up and down the stairs and blasts of music going on until about 2.30am, which was the time that we'd got in from a club we'd been to after the pub. Her neighbours said they were quite miffed not to be invited as it sounded quite a riot and wouldn't believe we'd left the house hours before.
She moved out not long after that! Can't think why though!