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Ape-Human Hybrids, Racism & Human Identity

Xanatic said:
Also read an article some time ago where I think it was a horse that was sold on and found to be pregnant. Which baffled the previous owners since it hadn't been near any male horses. Untill the animal was born and was found to be half horse half other animal. I don't remember which animal but it was one that they had had going in the field with the horse, because there had never been a mating between them before. So there was no word for the kind of offspring they had. Sadly I can't remember what animal it was.
If it's the same one I remember then it was a zebra, which of course is an equine.
 
Nice wolf link, Nonny.

I was delighted to learn about RLU. Fancy having a standard abbreviation for it!

You can be sure I'll try to slip this into as many conversations as possible from now on!
 
No, it wasn't just a zebra. That has happened before.

But I read a story in a book on creationism I'd like to hear some comments on. A male horse has sex with a zebra and produces some off spring. The same male then has sex with some normal horses, but the off spring still comes out part zebra. Anyone know if this is true?
 
I'm biased against the source but...

Xanatic said:
No, it wasn't just a zebra. That has happened before.

But I read a story in a book on creationism I'd like to hear some comments on. A male horse has sex with a zebra and produces some off spring. The same male then has sex with some normal horses, but the off spring still comes out part zebra. Anyone know if this is true?

Sounds like a load of crap... did that supposedly happen?
 
That's what they said yes. Sadly I don't have the book so I can't find the reference.
 
That is like the old fashioned notion that a pedigree bitch can no longer have purebred puppies if she has had a crossbreed litter , the genes of one litter can't affect the genes of the next .
Wolf X dog hybrids are fertile as far as I know , there are hybrid breeds of dog like Czech wolfdog and Sarloos wolfdog . In first cross bengal cats , asian leopard cat X domestic cat , the males are sterile but the females are fertile and later generation males are fertile and I believe the same goes for bison X domestic cattle .
It is amazing but some people really believe different species can interbreed , someone told me once not to keep a guinea pig in with a rabbit as they would breed and have deformed babies ,and a person on a mailing list was offended when people pointed out that her friends manx cat was not a cat/rabbit hybrid even though it had a short tail and hopped ( some manx cats do this due to fused vertebra ) , 'If my friend says it is half rabbit I believe her ' , the person ranted , ' are you calling my friend a liar ? '
Also I know that rattus rattus and rattus norvegicus can interbreed though the babies often ( but not always ) die and it is possible to hybridise canaries and various other finches in captivity .
 
Well, race and species are not well defined terms. They are still quite hazy. And there have been instances of inter-species breeding where the scientists have then had to revide their definition of those species.

Though rabbit and cat are quite far from each other.
 
Anthropologists are reclassifying humans and their ancestors and relatives. There was an article in National Geographic awhile ago on this, which I have misplaced the link to. I remember there was a new "hominin" classification, and that a significant minority of scientists wanted to put chimpanzees in the Homo genus along with humans.
 
Gorillaman

Online novel about a human/gorilla hybridisation! Also mentions (in the "editor"s comments in the first chapter) some real life cryptid stories including Oliver and the possible Koolookamba (chimp/gorilla) in Chester Zoo in the 1960s.

http://gorillaman.com/hugo/Contents.html
 
Going back to the question of whether greater rights should be given to other primates, surely the argument for doing so is not to do with their genetic closeness (or otherwise) to us, but to do with their level of intelligence and consciousness. Its quite clear that the tool-using, language and mathematical abilities of some primates are greater than those of some humans. There is a consensus that the rights of humans who have severe learning difficulties should be protected, and it seems morally illogical to give lesser rights to primates with higher ability levels, and very probably a greater capacity for suffering. (i.e. they can suffer not just physical but also psychologically)

While no-one would argue that primates should have citizen rights, as these would be meaningless to them, there is certainly a case that they have the right not to be imprisoned, tortured and killed, and further that they have the right to life free of human interference.

The same would apply to, for example, dolphins, if we could demonstrate unambigously that they have consciousness. In fact, I'd argue that the presumption should generally be that animals have some forem of consciousness unless its proved otherwise.

We've gone past the point where human rights are determined by genetics, perhaps its time we followed the argument to its logical conclusion.
 
The cover article of this month's Fate is all about ape-human hybrids:

Half-Human, Half-Ape

By Paul Stonehill
FATE magazine - April 2005

A “chimera”—originally the fabulous Greek mythological creature with a lion’s head, a goat’s body, and a serpent’s tail—has come to mean any hybrid of two or more creatures.

Chimpanzees are believed by many scientists to be the closest relatives of humans. The genetic difference between the two species is estimated to be about 1.7 percent at the DNA level (less than that between horses and zebras). Recent progress in studies of DNA sequences, the fossil record, and brain functions support the idea that there is a sizeable gap separating chimpanzees and monkeys, but not chimpanzees and humans.

Many years ago, according to the recently declassified Soviet documents, a famous scientist tried to close the gap between Homo sapiens and Pan troglodytes.

Complete article:
www.fatemag.com/2005_04art1.html
 
Goldstein said:
Thanks for the Lovecraft story - very cool, very very creepy. Typical Lovecraft in a way, but with mysterious apes instead of mysterious fishlike alien-god-demon people, and quite obviously the inspiration for Chrichton's laughable "Congo" (which slipped my mind when I started this thread, but is in fact very relevant, if only for its stereotypical derivativeness of a) this Lovecraft story, b) King Kong, c) the De Loys/ Montandon expedition, and probably other stuff too).

;)
There's another Lovecraft story (I've forgotten the name) whereby a family of Dutch Hillbillies who have regressed into apehood through incest consume some luckless protagonist. This one also has rather unsavoury overtones and I think the author's attitude to race was rather "of his time".
 
The picture in the link on the first thread was in a book called Timeless Earth. There was also another picture which was quite similar. The author claimed that they were surviving neanderthals. I bought the book well over 20 years ago. There are some really wild claims in this book so it may be all rubbish
 
Mighty_Emperor said:
The cover article of this month's Fate is all about ape-human hybrids:

Half-Human, Half-Ape

By Paul Stonehill
FATE magazine - April 2005

A “chimera”—originally the fabulous Greek mythological creature with a lion’s head, a goat’s body, and a serpent’s tail—has come to mean any hybrid of two or more creatures.

Chimpanzees are believed by many scientists to be the closest relatives of humans. The genetic difference between the two species is estimated to be about 1.7 percent at the DNA level (less than that between horses and zebras). Recent progress in studies of DNA sequences, the fossil record, and brain functions support the idea that there is a sizeable gap separating chimpanzees and monkeys, but not chimpanzees and humans.

Many years ago, according to the recently declassified Soviet documents, a famous scientist tried to close the gap between Homo sapiens and Pan troglodytes.

Complete article:
www.fatemag.com/2005_04art1.html

Wow emps, really fascinating article. I had always assumed that it wasn't possible to mix dna from a human to anything else. Never realised that it hadn't been done "just because its not right". My two cents is that its probably been done many times, just not gone public for obvious reasons. Interesting.
 
David Brin's Uplift series has an interesting treatment of how humans and evolved native animal species might interact in a possible future. Startide Rising can be read as a stand-alone if you can't face the notion of wading through six meaty books. IIRC it features a inter-planetary exploration crew of humans, and "uplifted" chimpanzees, dolphins and killer whales (or maybe sharks?) exploring a water world. Brin did a pretty good job creating the characters of each species without making them seem like only furry (or finny) humans.
 
That Russian guy who was supposed to have made human chimp hybrids, isn't he named the same as the scientist in the suprisingly bad Bruce cambpell movie The Man With The Screaming Brain?
 
really makes you wonder if ape-human hybrids arent the explanation for bigfoot obviously. If you had a beast of a man who stood 8 feet, a monsterous hulking body then its likely he could live in any climate and not be bothered. Have no problem catching deer, etc.
 
OK, One of the things reported about Bigfoot (bigfeet ?) is it's awful smell.Now I dont know what the deer are like where you live but round here they have a very good sense of smell.If I'm really careful I can get to within about 15 meters of them with the wind blowing toward me,and I'm good at this sort of thing !.An 8 foot tall hominid is probably not going to be too quick,I know I could'nt run down a deer !.Only very unlucky or stupid deer are going to be cuaght like that.
 
Xanatic~ said:
I think it was someone on here who mentioned that her firefighter father gave up eating pig after having smelled too many roasted humans.

Aaargh! You made me remember a very nasty factoid I had preferred to suppress. To take revenge I'll write it down here so it will haunt you too:

In the Pinochet era an Irish catholic priest was caught in the Chilean interrogation machinery and subjected to torture by electric current. One of his memories of the mistreatment was: "It smelled like fried bacon." :shock:

Now on a more positive note ;)

I've often wondered if man-ape crossings could be possible, but this question isn't mentioned in any of the popular biology books that I've read. Anyone knows that matings of horse-ass and lion-tiger are possible. Surely someone must have tried chimp-gorilla matings or something like that - maybe they occured spontaneously. That's what often happens to lions-tigers in captivity.

Recently - in the Dutch "puma" case - it became known that someone had crossed panthers and house-cats as a hobby.

Ad as an aside - I've often wondered what would happen if someone mates a female chihuahua (small dog) with a doberman (big dog). Would a ceasarean section be necessary?
 
In Jilly Cooper's book celebrating mongrels, Intelligent & Loyal, there's a photo of a Great Dane/Dachshund cross. Think of the logistics involved!

If the smaller dog is the female, her body probably won't let the puppies get too big to handle, so to speak, although one does have to worry about the conception--wouldn't a male Dobie injure a female chihuahua?!
 
On TV I once saw the product of a union between a male Jack Russell and a female Rottweiler. It had a tiny Jack Russell body and a big Rottweiler head on its shoulders, and looked pretty silly. The owner of the Rottweiler wasn't pleased.
 
Re: alien-man hybrids?

caroleaswas said:
Going one step further, has anyone ever claimed knowledge of, or even claimed to be, an alien-human hybrid?

The best "example" is the famous "Chicken-man" of Waldenburg. Born in 1735, the foetus died soon after birth. It is correctly described as "Monstrum Humanum Rarissimum".

Rather horrid pictures here: http://www.acolina.de/content/seti/huhnm.htm
 
"Ad as an aside - I've often wondered what would happen if someone mates a female chihuahua (small dog) with a doberman (big dog). Would a ceasarean section be necessary?"

This gives me a chance to ask another question. If a human dwarf has children, how big would the babies be? As I understand dwarfism isn't always hereditary, so some have normal sized offspring. But how does that work in the initial stages? It's the sort of question you can't ask in normal conversation.
 
Stalin

There were rumors out of the White Russian emigre organizations in Paris during the mid-1930s that Russian dictator Josef Stalin had been attempting to breed human women with gorillas in order to create a race of dim-witted but super-strong workers.

But even these anti-Communist underground sources admitted that Stalin's putative experiments had all ended in utter failure.

There are also rumored to be human-ape hybrids still living in South American jungles, the results of early European sailors. sex-starved after long sea voyages, mating with local female apes.

I find this even less believeable than the Stalin story.
 
Re: alien-man hybrids?

If the German "Chicken-Man" of 1735 was an actual example of an alien-human hybrid, we do know one thing about those pesky extraterrestrials - they sure as heck aren't very good at it, or at least they werem't 280 years ago.

For their own safety's sake, I hope the aliens know more a lot more concerning interstellar navigation that they apparently do about gene- splicing.
 
There are also rumored to be human-ape hybrids still living in South American jungles, the results of early European sailors. sex-starved after long sea voyages, mating with local female apes. ...If the German "Chicken-Man" of 1735 was an actual example of an alien-human hybrid...I hope the aliens know more a lot more concerning interstellar navigation that they apparently do about gene- splicing."

It sounds like this is just an example of sailors being sex-starved after long intersteller voyages.
 
tattooted said:
It sounds like this is just an example of sailors being sex-starved after long intersteller voyages.

:lol:

Now fasten your seatbelts. This reputable historic magazine describes what happened in The Netherlands soon after the publication of Darwins evolutionary theories:

The Christian elite didn't resist the new biological ideas, but attacked it's details. For example - they asked for evidence that man descended from the apes.

Darwin's followers were busily searching for the "missing link" but couldn't find it. Eventually, they suggested to create the missing link, by cross breeding ape-females with negro-men. It was theorized that the negroes were closest relatives to the apes in evolutionary sense.

Nobody protested against racist statements like these, because in these times (around 1850) everyone was a racist.

:shock:

http://www.historischnieuwsblad.nl/artikelDetail.lasso?ID=1832
 
That Russian guy who was supposed to have made human chimp hybrids, isn't he named the same as the scientist in the suprisingly bad Bruce cambpell movie The Man With The Screaming Brain?

The Soviet scientist most often cited in regard to 'humanzee' hybrids was Ilya Ivanovich Ivanov:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilya_Ivanovich_Ivanov

This 2008 New Scientist article:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19926701-000-blasts-from-the-past-the-soviet-ape-man-scandal/

... provides more of the story - at least to the extent it's been documented.
 
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