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Pietro_Mercurios

Gone But Not Forgotten
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Aug 10, 2005
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I heard a really interesting programme on BBC Radio4, the other day.

Various differing interpretations based on the data retrieved from excavations on ancient sites, in this case the enormous Iron Age site of Maiden Castle. The well known British archaeologist Sir Mortimer Wheeler dug the site, back in the 1930s and built up a convincing narrative of British tribes-people fighting a rearguard action against the invading Romans and being massacred when the troops of Vespasian over ran the fort.

More recent digs and re-evaluations of the available evidence have produced different narratives, more in keeping with the prevailing concerns of the times.

Fascinating stuff.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00qgwcr

The Voices Who Dug Up The Past

[BBC iPlayer Episode 1]

Broadcaster and archaeologist Mike Pitts delves into the question of why different archaeologists can dig the same sites yet reach completely different conclusions.

Mike visits Britain's biggest Iron Age hill fort, Maiden Castle, and, through archive, diary excerpts and interviews, relives two seminal digs that took place there in the 1930s and 1980s. Is it a monument tied up in Roman warfare and invasion, or a structure symbolising power and exclusion from the outside world? Featuring interviews with Niall Sharples, Beatrice de Cardi, Ian Armit and Chris Sparey-Green.

Available since Monday with 4 days left.

1/2. Archaeologist Mike Pitts visits Britain's biggest Iron Age hill fort, Maiden Castle.
 
When I was doing my degree I vaguely remember one of my proffs getting all excited about finding a partial stone inscription that suggested a wee bit more complicity from the locals in the Roman invasion than the fans of Boudicca would have you believe.

But that's one of the problems of Archeology, a complete picture is rarely uncovered, and when there is a time span between examinations of the same site of 50 years, very different perpectives are brought into the examinations by the examiners.

Current perpectives around the Roman invasion are a bit more middle of the road so to speak, 'Acculturation' is the watch word, (although the Yanks in Iraq would call it 'winning hearts and minds') and the programme synopsis suggests that they are going to examine the two potential extremes and coming to a middling conclusion, but I'm definately gonna catch it on the iplayer when I won't wake the housemates up
 
Cultjunky said:
Current perpectives around the Roman invasion are a bit more middle of the road so to speak, 'Acculturation' is the watch word, (although the Yanks in Iraq would call it 'winning hearts and minds')

Quite so!

I am always wary of today's values being imposed on ancient artifacts. Israeli archeology is rather infamous in that respect, as is the Christian-American effort to verify the Bible via digging.
 
"Quite so!

I am always wary of today's values being imposed on ancient artifacts. Israeli archeology is rather infamous in that respect, as is the Christian-American effort to verify the Bible via digging."

Well you weren't wrong about current values being imposed when giving an interpretation of this site Zilch5! You could probably make a good guess at when each of the experts recieved their qualifications.

Having now listened to the programme, I would have liked a bit of a deeper exploration of the concept of architectural power and how that can compliment military power and accentuate presumed power. It would certainly have added a bit more ambiguity to the potential dates of conflict at the site, as it does seem to be quite a symbolic site for both the Vespasion conquest and the Boudiccan revolt, for either side this would have been a significant 'prize' in their endevours.

Then again, how much can you say in a 30 min segment aimed at a non specialist audience.

Looking forward to hearing the Sutton Hoo programme next Monday though :)
 
It doesn't help when you have to get rid of the evidence...

Burial law is threatening archaeological research, say experts
Scientists object to Ministry of Justice rules which force them to rebury bones after just two years
Robin McKie The Observer, Sunday 10 October 2010

Severe restrictions on scientists' freedom to study bones and skulls from ancient graves are putting archaeological research in Britain at risk, according to experts.

The growing dispute relates to controversial legislation introduced by the Ministry of Justice in 2008, which decreed that all human remains found during digs in Britain must be reburied within two years.

The decision means that scientists have insufficient time to carry out proper studies of any pieces of ancient skeleton they find. Key information about British history will be lost as a result.

"Suppose one of our palaeontologists found the remains of a million-year-old human," said archaeologist Mike Pitts of the Stonehenge Riverside Project.
"It would be a truly wonderful discovery and would transform our knowledge of our predecessors. But, according to the Ministry of Justice ruling, we would have to take that fossil – when we had only just begun to study it – and put it back in the soil. It is utterly absurd."


Scientists are already facing the prospect of having to rebury a horde of human bone fragments, the remains of more than 50 individuals, that were excavated in 2008 at a site known as Aubrey Hole 7, which is part of the Stonehenge Riverside Project.

Team members, including Pitts, had hoped that they could study these pieces to gain new knowledge about the people who built and used Stonehenge, with a preliminary study of the 50,000 bone fragments being expected to run from 2008 until 2015. Now the team faces the prospect of having to rebury the remains when their research has only just begun.

"We have applied for an extension," added Pitts. "We may get one, but even if we did, it would only be for a couple more years. Then the bones would have be reburied."

The ministry's ruling follows a decision in 2007 to transfer authority for exhumation of human remains from ancient graves from the Home Office to the Ministry of Justice.

Its officials decided that the Burial Act 1857 was the appropriate legislation for controlling archaeological digs at burial grounds. As a result, they dictated that archaeologists could dig up bones and skulls, but insisted that they would have to rebury them within two years "in an accepted place of burial" – a cemetery – while the excavations would have to be screened from the public.

"In fact, that legislation was introduced in the 19th century to deal with the expansion of our cities, which took building development across existing cemeteries," said Pitts.
"Builders were essentially hauling corpses out of the ground in front of living relatives. The Burial Act was introduced to stop that. But it is something completely different from the excavation of prehistoric remains. It is utterly inappropriate to use this law to control archaeology."


In recent years, scientists have developed a number of important tools for interpreting ancient remains.

In one case, a recent project that used high-resolution radiocarbon dating of remains found in the West Kennet barrow – an ancient burial chamber in Wiltshire that was constructed around 3500BC – led to a dramatic re-evaluation of its contents.

"We used to think these ancient barrows were used for many generations to bury their dead," said Dr Duncan Sayer of the University of Central Lancashire. "But these new, highly accurate dating techniques revealed they had been filled up within a single generation."

The discovery is forcing historians to take a completely new look at how humans lived in the period, but it would not have been possible under the Ministry of Justice's rules.

"The bones were dug up at the barrow several decades ago and were kept in museums before researchers redated them," added Sayer.
"But the new rules would have meant that the bones would have had to been reburied long ago and would have been unavailable for research."

The requirement for reburial within two years is not the only issue to vex archaeologists, however. The ministry's requirement that any excavation of human remains must be screened from the public has also caused anger.

"If you dig up old burial grounds and then screen your dig from local people, they become suspicious," added Sayer, who is leading an excavation at a Saxon cemetery at Oakington in Cambridgeshire.
"They think you are doing something sinister. The ironic thing is that the government has insisted on the public being given access to scientific research and for there to be openness between scientists and the public.
"But now they are preventing us from doing that – when we are happy to show people what we are doing and when local folk want to learn about the men and women who used to live in their village or town."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/ ... stonehenge
 
I have often wondered if there is a set time lapse for when it becomes acceptable to inspect a burial archaeologically? I watched the TV programme on the Crossrail excavations some time ago and many of the burials were comparitively recent. I know the grave sites were going to be disturbed by the rail line but I wonder when it becomes ethically too soon to clinically inspect a skeleton. Victorian era seems acceptable but would an archaeologist be happy digging up and probing around in his great grand parents remains?
 
I have often wondered if there is a set time lapse for when it becomes acceptable to inspect a burial archaeologically? I watched the TV programme on the Crossrail excavations some time ago and many of the burials were comparitively recent. I know the grave sites were going to be disturbed by the rail line but I wonder when it becomes ethically too soon to clinically inspect a skeleton. Victorian era seems acceptable but would an archaeologist be happy digging up and probing around in his great grand parents remains?

Yes, if you mean the generation rather than my actual grands who were cremated.

For example, taken into account...

* the need to do it at all

* any known views from the relevant social groupings

* views from the next of kin or plot owners

* legalities and official involvement

Don't forget that forensic archaeologists can deal with very very recent remains - weeks or months dead.
 

England's archaeological history gathers dust as museums fill up​

Troves of ancient artefacts unearthed during building and infrastructure works are gathering dust in warehouses as England's museums run out of space, the BBC has learned.

Archaeologists say this is a missed opportunity for people to learn about their history and heritage.
The objects range from fine Roman metalwork to bronze age pottery.
They are discovered by archaeological contractors whom developers hire before clearing sites for construction.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-64707488
 

England's archaeological history gathers dust as museums fill up​

Troves of ancient artefacts unearthed during building and infrastructure works are gathering dust in warehouses as England's museums run out of space, the BBC has learned.

Archaeologists say this is a missed opportunity for people to learn about their history and heritage.
The objects range from fine Roman metalwork to bronze age pottery.
They are discovered by archaeological contractors whom developers hire before clearing sites for construction.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-64707488
This is the down side of a golden age of archaeology. 'Too many' finds and not enough space. Also I believe it is quite difficult to get a proper Report done because the funds are for the dig rather than the analysis and finishing up.
 

England's archaeological history gathers dust as museums fill up​

Troves of ancient artefacts unearthed during building and infrastructure works are gathering dust in warehouses as England's museums run out of space, the BBC has learned.

Archaeologists say this is a missed opportunity for people to learn about their history and heritage.
The objects range from fine Roman metalwork to bronze age pottery.
They are discovered by archaeological contractors whom developers hire before clearing sites for construction.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-64707488
I can't speak for other museums, but my local one used to have a fine and large collection of artefacts, but most of them vanished when they converted space for 'displays', you know the kind of thing, awful figures, 'recreations' of scenarios and so on.
 
This is the down side of a golden age of archaeology. 'Too many' finds and not enough space. Also I believe it is quite difficult to get a proper Report done because the funds are for the dig rather than the analysis and finishing up.
I quite accidentally came upon an potentially great archaeological site (seems to be part iron age, and possibly part stone age) which I tried to get an archaeologist interested in having a look at before covid the pandemic kicked in, and it's been shelved ever since!
Even tried to get a local archaeological metal detecting group, and others, to get their gear to the site (which is a bit tricky to get their stuff up too) and carry out a search both with detecting and visual searches, but without any resulting action.
Seems like Archaeologist's and other groups only want the places which are involved with the more important site finds, rather than try to discover previously un-searched places - though the site was written about by an Lady Archaeologist many years ago, and was ignored back then also.
The site I discovered by chance when we had that very dry Summer some years ago, and it showed up really well.
All has turned out to be a bit of a waste of my time and my efforts to get it under the microscope for the benefit of others really.
The last I heard was that 'they' "will let me know," which really means nothing at all. Very frustrating when it could potentially turn out to be a really great place to search!
 
I quite accidentally came upon an potentially great archaeological site (seems to be part iron age, and possibly part stone age) which I tried to get an archaeologist interested in having a look at before covid the pandemic kicked in, and it's been shelved ever since!
Even tried to get a local archaeological metal detecting group, and others, to get their gear to the site (which is a bit tricky to get their stuff up too) and carry out a search both with detecting and visual searches, but without any resulting action.
Seems like Archaeologist's and other groups only want the places which are involved with the more important site finds, rather than try to discover previously un-searched places - though the site was written about by an Lady Archaeologist many years ago, and was ignored back then also.
The site I discovered by chance when we had that very dry Summer some years ago, and it showed up really well.
All has turned out to be a bit of a waste of my time and my efforts to get it under the microscope for the benefit of others really.
The last I heard was that 'they' "will let me know," which really means nothing at all. Very frustrating when it could potentially turn out to be a really great place to search!
Hi Sid. I help run a local archaeology group here in East Yorkshire. We have only been around for a couple of years and owe our existence to a local man who, despite having no previous archaeological experience, got permission to excavate a local scheduled monument. He was put in touch with a local Community Archaeologist who oversaw the project. Community Archaeologists exist to offer help and advice to local amateur groups. I would suggest you enquire locally to see if there is a community archaeologist that covers your area. Our man used to work for Yorkshire Archaeology Trust but decided to go freelance. Dont give up, make a few enquiries and try and interest local people in the project. You could even consider putting on some sort of presentation of your research to gauge local interest. Good luck!
 
Seems like Archaeologist's and other groups only want the places which are involved with the more important site finds, rather than try to discover previously un-searched places - though the site was written about by an Lady Archaeologist many years ago, and was ignored back then also.

I don't know where to start.

Archaeologists can only go where there are funds. Which means either a risk to the site (say, quarrying) or as part of a research plan. Digging is expensive and not done on a whim - it destroys the site. So what is the justification for the one you are interested in?

Ignored? why not assessed, entered in to the record and thus part of the evidence available to everyone, yourself included?

Lady Archaeologist :rollingw: :pitch: as a Lady Archaeologist I would like to know why knowing a Lady was involved is relevant? The phrase was dropped by the profession before the late 70s .

"only want the places which are involved with the more important site finds" - really? whatever you are thinking of here it isn't archaeology or archaeologists. It's the general public which is hungry for finds per se, rather than the data.

@eziofan gives some EXCELLENT advice about how to proceed. I applaud them!
 
I don't know where to start.

Archaeologists can only go where there are funds. Which means either a risk to the site (say, quarrying) or as part of a research plan. Digging is expensive and not done on a whim - it destroys the site. So what is the justification for the one you are interested in?

Ignored? why not assessed, entered in to the record and thus part of the evidence available to everyone, yourself included?

Lady Archaeologist :rollingw: :pitch: as a Lady Archaeologist I would like to know why knowing a Lady was involved is relevant? The phrase was dropped by the profession before the late 70s .

"only want the places which are involved with the more important site finds" - really? whatever you are thinking of here it isn't archaeology or archaeologists. It's the general public which is hungry for finds per se, rather than the data.

@eziofan gives some EXCELLENT advice about how to proceed. I applaud them!
Firstly, the 'Lady' Archaeologist was recorded as saying that she thought this site had credibility a long time ago. If it was a 'Gentleman' Archaeologist I would have stated it in the same manner.
The local archaeological group did discuss and had a proper meeting on what I had to show them, but nothing has been forthcoming so far, apart from an formal approval of the site in question.
 
Lady Archaeologist :rollingw: :pitch: as a Lady Archaeologist I would like to know why knowing a Lady was involved is relevant? The phrase was dropped by the profession before the late 70s .
Lords and ladies, dukes and duchesses - any member of the nobility may be interested in archaeology.
 
Lords and ladies, dukes and duchesses - any member of the nobility may be interested in archaeology.
"Ha!" :curt:This one just happened to be a Lady. . . maybe I should have just said "she," but I think 'lady' sounded far better.
 
"Ha!" :curt:This one just happened to be a Lady. . . maybe I should have just said "she," but I think 'lady' sounded far better.
Reminds me of a brief phone conversation with the receptionist at my dentist. I phoned and made a booking. Then I realised I'd forgotten something, so I called back. I mentioned that I'd spoken with a lady earlier... Her reply was 'thank you for calling me a lady - I've been called all kinds of things, but never a lady'. Odd reply that left me floundering, because of the recent 'misgendering' debacle. I mean, did I say the wrong thing?
 
Reminds me of a brief phone conversation with the receptionist at my dentist. I phoned and made a booking. Then I realised I'd forgotten something, so I called back. I mentioned that I'd spoken with a lady earlier... Her reply was 'thank you for calling me a lady - I've been called all kinds of things, but never a lady'. Odd reply that left me floundering, because of the recent 'misgendering' debacle. I mean, did I say the wrong thing?
I would say not - you didn't say the wrong thing 'Myth.' I interpret the title of Lady as simply meaning a woman/female. I could have just used the profession name of Archaeologist, but I preferred to define the archaeologist as being a woman/lady/female simply because that is exactly what she was.
 
Reminds me of a brief phone conversation with the receptionist at my dentist. I phoned and made a booking. Then I realised I'd forgotten something, so I called back. I mentioned that I'd spoken with a lady earlier... Her reply was 'thank you for calling me a lady - I've been called all kinds of things, but never a lady'. Odd reply that left me floundering, because of the recent 'misgendering' debacle. I mean, did I say the wrong thing?
No. She was pleased you said it. She (probably) meant that as she often has to deal with rude people in her job it was a nice change to be spoken to politely (and/or it was a jokey comment referring to other experiences in life).

I use a 'Madam' on occasion- ie 'Excuse my Madam, you've dropped your purse' etc.
 
I don't know where to start.

Archaeologists can only go where there are funds. Which means either a risk to the site (say, quarrying) or as part of a research plan. Digging is expensive and not done on a whim - it destroys the site. So what is the justification for the one you are interested in?

Ignored? why not assessed, entered in to the record and thus part of the evidence available to everyone, yourself included?

Lady Archaeologist :rollingw: :pitch: as a Lady Archaeologist I would like to know why knowing a Lady was involved is relevant? The phrase was dropped by the profession before the late 70s .

"only want the places which are involved with the more important site finds" - really? whatever you are thinking of here it isn't archaeology or archaeologists. It's the general public which is hungry for finds per se, rather than the data.

@eziofan gives some EXCELLENT advice about how to proceed. I applaud them!
It probably does come down to money though - like most things nowadays.
 
It probably does come down to money though - like most things nowadays.
The thing is everyone has to earn a living. Archaeology is not the best paid profession. Our community archaeologist is self employed so we have to pay him for his time. The only way we can do this is to apply for grants. We have been very successful to date and have just received funding for this summer's project.
 
If archaeologists were only interested in big money sites, I wouldn't know that there was a little medieval settlement with tiny peasanty hovels just round the corner from my mum's house. All they got out of that was some funny coloured post holes, some plough marks and an entry into the Historic Environment Record (which I love looking at). The reason they investigated was because some people were going to build some (rather nice, large) houses and the evidence would be destroyed. If a site is undisturbed and unlikely to be destroyed any time soon then there is all the time in the world to investigate and future archaeologists may have better, less destructive tech.

It must be really frustrating if a site is really calling to you like this one is @Sid I would keep gathering what evidence you can find and maybe one day someone else's fire will be lit and can join you.
 
If archaeologists were only interested in big money sites, I wouldn't know that there was a little medieval settlement with tiny peasanty hovels just round the corner from my mum's house. All they got out of that was some funny coloured post holes, some plough marks and an entry into the Historic Environment Record (which I love looking at). The reason they investigated was because some people were going to build some (rather nice, large) houses and the evidence would be destroyed. If a site is undisturbed and unlikely to be destroyed any time soon then there is all the time in the world to investigate and future archaeologists may have better, less destructive tech.

It must be really frustrating if a site is really calling to you like this one is @Sid I would keep gathering what evidence you can find and maybe one day someone else's fire will be lit and can join you.
Appreciate your comments 'staticgirl.'
 
Not sure where else to put this, but this wanton destruction is most worrying.
Whatever about how we interpret archaeological evidence, if the sites are destroyed because of ideological indifference, we are all, as a species, poorer.

Afghanistan: Archaeological sites 'bulldozed for looting'​

_132344428_balkh_monastery_getty.jpg.webp

Dozens of archaeological sites in Afghanistan have been bulldozed to allow systematic looting, according to researchers at the University of Chicago.
They say their analysis of satellite photos provides the first definitive photographic evidence that looting patterns that began under the previous government have continued since the Taliban returned to power in 2021.
Ancient settlements dating back to the Late Bronze Age and Iron Age - some earlier than 1000BC - are among those they say have been damaged.
Most of the sites identified are in northern Afghanistan's Balkh region, which more than two millennia ago was the heartland of Bactria.
It was one of the richest and most populous regions of ancient Afghanistan under the Achaemenid Empire in the 6th Century BC.

From BBC News
 
Reminds me of a brief phone conversation with the receptionist at my dentist. I phoned and made a booking. Then I realised I'd forgotten something, so I called back. I mentioned that I'd spoken with a lady earlier... Her reply was 'thank you for calling me a lady - I've been called all kinds of things, but never a lady'. Odd reply that left me floundering, because of the recent 'misgendering' debacle. I mean, did I say the wrong thing?
Not in my opinion. . . "cos I waz brawt up propa-like. :hahazebs:"
 
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One of my professors, who specialised in Old Norse, used to say the historians and archaeologists usually find out years later, what people who read the literature and sources already knew...

(Most of my mates at uni were archaeologists or historians so I kept quiet about that one).
 
I quite accidentally came upon an potentially great archaeological site (seems to be part iron age, and possibly part stone age) which I tried to get an archaeologist interested in having a look at before covid the pandemic kicked in, and it's been shelved ever since!
Even tried to get a local archaeological metal detecting group, and others, to get their gear to the site (which is a bit tricky to get their stuff up too) and carry out a search both with detecting and visual searches, but without any resulting action.
Seems like Archaeologist's and other groups only want the places which are involved with the more important site finds, rather than try to discover previously un-searched places - though the site was written about by an Lady Archaeologist many years ago, and was ignored back then also.
The site I discovered by chance when we had that very dry Summer some years ago, and it showed up really well.
All has turned out to be a bit of a waste of my time and my efforts to get it under the microscope for the benefit of others really.
The last I heard was that 'they' "will let me know," which really means nothing at all. Very frustrating when it could potentially turn out to be a really great place to search!
The UK's full of scheduled sites. One of my favourites is the site where King Aethelstan's "palace" (actually, a hunting lodge more likely) is located. Right behind my old village church. Given the connection to the first king of all England, you'd imagine it might be something of a priority. I think it's been scheduled since the 1960s... Never dug. To my knowledge, anyway. Interestingly, us locals had a "White Lady" myth centred round a pond in that field. I still use the word "lady" but maybe only in a folklore context lol.

I'm an old fart but my take is that the word "Lady" in these contexts is an age-related thing. I'm ancient but prefer to be called a "woman" to a "lady". My kids would enver use the word "lady" either, but my parents would have. The pedant in me doesn't want to lose the word "lady" because it's a beautiful Anglo Saxon word... but in reality, I don't like it being used for me. (And of course, it doesn't need to be used at all to preface a job title).

A few years ago, I was witness in a court case and the police fecked up and forgot to tell me to do a witness impact statement. (It was the Met because the crim lived there, but I was at the other end of the country and had been dealing with our local coppers so I think it was an adminstrative error). Anyway, afterwards I made a complaint (not being a lady) and they wrote me back a letter saying I forget but using the phrase that I'd been a "brave lady". F that, was how I felt. Really disliked it. It felt incredibly condescending. I think many people my age would still use the word but I haven't for years and am with Frides on this.
 
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