Australian Archaeology

Mungoman

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#62
Care to elaborate? Sounds interesting, but I don't think I know about that.
Certainly KW. Mr Gilroy (not Mr Gilmore - my apologies), is an interesting fellow with a very sharp mind, but he prefers the more conspiratory viewpoint of Australia. I enjoy reading Mr Gilroys views but take pretty much everything with a pinch of salt.

He's not scared to speak and assert his theories or viewpoints.
 

blessmycottonsocks

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#64
I understand, from the tone of several articles, that there is a tendency to roll the eyes skywards whenever Gilroy is memtioned. Is that, however, due to an absence of evidence to support his claims, or simply because his hypotheses are viewed as heretical by archaeological orthodoxy?
 

Kingsize Wombat

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#65
I understand, from the tone of several articles, that there is a tendency to roll the eyes skywards whenever Gilroy is memtioned. Is that, however, due to an absence of evidence to support his claims, or simply because his hypotheses are viewed as heretical by archaeological orthodoxy?
Here's his home page. Make of it what you will.

http://www.mysteriousaustralia.com/
 
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#67
Angling is an ancient and revered sport. Even in the old days fishermen were buried with their favourite hooks. I'll put this here as an Australian archaeologist made the descovery.

An archaeologist from The Australian National University (ANU) has uncovered the world's oldest known fish-hooks placed in a burial ritual, found on Indonesia's Alor Island, northwest of East Timor.

The five fish hooks were among items carefully placed under the chin, and around the jaws of a female from the Pleistocene era, dating back 12,000 years.

Distinguished Professor Sue O'Connor from the School of Culture, History and Language in the ANU College of Asia and the Pacific said the discovery turns on its head the theory that most fishing activities on these islands were carried out by men.

"These are the oldest known fish-hooks associated with mortuary practices from anywhere in the world and perhaps indicate that fishing equipment was viewed as essential for transition to the afterlife in this area," Professor O'Connor said.

"The discovery shows that in both life and death, the Pleistocene inhabitants of the Alor Island region were intrinsically connected to the sea, and the association of the fish-hooks with a burial denotes the cosmological status of fishing in this island environment."

Prior to the find, the earliest fish-hooks associated with a burial site date back only about 9,000 years and were found in a river environment of the Mesolithic era in Siberia, known as the Ershi cemetery. ...

https://phys.org/news/2017-12-archaeologist-world-oldest-funereal-fish.html
 

Jim

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#68
Angling is an ancient and revered sport. Even in the old days fishermen were buried with their favourite hooks. I'll put this here as an Australian archaeologist made the descovery.

An archaeologist from The Australian National University (ANU) has uncovered the world's oldest known fish-hooks placed in a burial ritual, found on Indonesia's Alor Island, northwest of East Timor.

The five fish hooks were among items carefully placed under the chin, and around the jaws of a female from the Pleistocene era, dating back 12,000 years.

Distinguished Professor Sue O'Connor from the School of Culture, History and Language in the ANU College of Asia and the Pacific said the discovery turns on its head the theory that most fishing activities on these islands were carried out by men.

"These are the oldest known fish-hooks associated with mortuary practices from anywhere in the world and perhaps indicate that fishing equipment was viewed as essential for transition to the afterlife in this area," Professor O'Connor said.

"The discovery shows that in both life and death, the Pleistocene inhabitants of the Alor Island region were intrinsically connected to the sea, and the association of the fish-hooks with a burial denotes the cosmological status of fishing in this island environment."
The important things in life "fishing". Bury me complete with my angling gear that's the way to go!

Prior to the find, the earliest fish-hooks associated with a burial site date back only about 9,000 years and were found in a river environment of the Mesolithic era in Siberia, known as the Ershi cemetery. ...

https://phys.org/news/2017-12-archaeologist-world-oldest-funereal-fish.html
The important things in life fishing. Sounds like early man had his priorities straight!
 

Mungoman

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#69

Mungoman

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#71
Yes, I've thought for a long time that we underestimate the nautical abilities of the ancestors. How else to explain the settling of the South Pacific?
G'day KW, on my Mums side we're Kiwi (Great grandad Wolfgram married into a local family) - now, this family and others are reputed to have had a 'canoe' (supposedly 7 canoes in all).

The canoes, or to give them their proper name Waka, carried, in one great fleet, all those that settled Aotearoa. They came from a place called Hawaiki, but prior to that I reckon that they settled the whole pacific region.

Evidence includes chooks DNA in south America lining up with the DNA of Kiwi chickens, and the red sweet potato Kumara, having the same name both in Aotearoa and South America.

I had cause to visit Thailand a while back and got into an eye opening conversation with a Thai who told me that all of maritime south east asia at one time was ruled by people closely resembling the polynesian...he pointed out the carvings at Angkor Wat as a hint.

I reckon we really do need a TARDIS...eh.
 

Kingsize Wombat

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#72
G'day KW, on my Mums side we're Kiwi (Great grandad Wolfgram married into a local family) - now, this family and others are reputed to have had a 'canoe' (supposedly 7 canoes in all).

The canoes, or to give them their proper name Waka, carried, in one great fleet, all those that settled Aotearoa. They came from a place called Hawaiki, but prior to that I reckon that they settled the whole pacific region.

Evidence includes chooks DNA in south America lining up with the DNA of Kiwi chickens, and the red sweet potato Kumara, having the same name both in Aotearoa and South America.

I had cause to visit Thailand a while back and got into an eye opening conversation with a Thai who told me that all of maritime south east asia at one time was ruled by people closely resembling the polynesian...he pointed out the carvings at Angkor Wat as a hint.

I reckon we really do need a TARDIS...eh.
Thanks! That is fascinating information. I don't know if you read my post in another thread about the people who supposedly already were in Aotearoa - the link to South America was raised in that context.

It's a touchy subject, I know - but it never made all that much sense to me that Australia was settled so long ago, and NZ so relatively recently.

I also remembered reading the below, which makes everything even more mysterious.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...Melanesians-interbred-mysterious-hominid.html

Do you have any thoughts on that?
 

Mungoman

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#73
To be honest KW, I do have rather strange ideas about civilisation prior to our own Agrarian inception, and it is rather weird.

When that Greek gentleman spoke and wrote about Atlantis, I believe that he was half right.

My personal view is that world wide, we had an atlassian? (is that a word)civilisation where we had the technology to create massive buildings, around the world, and that we also had, due to diminished oceans and seas, a civilisation that travelled and traded to a greater or lesser extent around the world.

Its technology was not as sophisticated as todays, yet it was very aware of metallurgy, agriculture, geometry astronomy and mathematics - just to name a few technologies.

I hesitate to talk about this because based on our present civilisation, it sounds bizarre. I reckon that this pre-world had a first world culture, as in having centres of learning, culture and healing, along with hunter gatherer cultures that preferred to live in a hunter gatherer life style.

To me, Our myth and legendary writings are a vague hint of what once was, but blurred by time and repetition.

What happened? I can't quite figure that out KW, but it makes more sense that we had cultures in certain areas of the world where intelligence reigned supreme and great feats of Architecture were created, and which are still, to a certain degree, obvious.

As for NZ, there are many stories told about who was there before the Maori and the Mori aori, very fanciful indeed, some of them, but the common theme is that they were pale skinned with red hair.
 

Kingsize Wombat

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#74
Thank you for your very interesting answers!

My personal view is that world wide, we had an atlassian? (is that a word)civilisation where we had the technology to create massive buildings, around the world, and that we also had, due to diminished oceans and seas, a civilisation that travelled and traded to a greater or lesser extent around the world.
There certainly are strong hints at an early and almost global civilization out there. If that relates to Atlantis, I'm fairly agnostic in that respect.

As for NZ, there are many stories told about who was there before the Maori and the Mori aori, very fanciful indeed, some of them, but the common theme is that they were pale skinned with red hair.
That's what I heard too - and that makes me very curious. Now I've recently read something about a study that found a random genetic mutation in Polynesians that can give them red hair and fair skin - without any European contact. That just ads another interesting piece to the puzzle.
 

EnolaGaia

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#75
... we also had, due to diminished oceans and seas, a civilisation that travelled and traded to a greater or lesser extent around the world. ...
Setting aside the worldwide bit and concentrating on your neck of the woods (i.e., southeast Asia and Australia), it's pretty clear that lower sea levels since the last glacial maximum (ca. 17,000 - 18,000 years ago) once afforded easier movement throughout the area without resorting to sailing.

This 2000 article:

https://www.fieldmuseum.org/sites/default/files/Voris_2000.pdf

... includes a series of maps of the region, differentiated by extent of lowered sea level. Tracing the series from the first (@ 120 m lower than today's sea level) to the latest (today's level) will give you an idea how things have changed.
 

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#76
Thank you for your very interesting answers!



There certainly are strong hints at an early and almost global civilization out there. If that relates to Atlantis, I'm fairly agnostic in that respect.



That's what I heard too - and that makes me very curious. Now I've recently read something about a study that found a random genetic mutation in Polynesians that can give them red hair and fair skin - without any European contact. That just ads another interesting piece to the puzzle.

In a number of areas in Australia there were (are?) Aboriginal children who had red hair KW, their skin was no different but this hair was red.

An explanation given was that a habit of the Dutch was to maroon maritime transgressors on the closest land, and that these abandoned sailors were set adrift on Australian soil and were included into the people of that area. These were all West coast people though - I've never seen or heard of red haired kids on the East coast.
 

Kingsize Wombat

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#77
In a number of areas in Australia there were (are?) Aboriginal children who had red hair KW, their skin was no different but this hair was red.

An explanation given was that a habit of the Dutch was to maroon maritime transgressors on the closest land, and that these abandoned sailors were set adrift on Australian soil and were included into the people of that area. These were all West coast people though - I've never seen or heard of red haired kids on the East coast.
Yes, the story of the Batavia. Did you read Peter Fitzsimmons' book on that? I'm not his greatest fan, but that one was amazing.
 

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#78
Nah Yeah KW, I'd rather not read Mr Fitzsimmons (showing my prejudices I suppose), I'd rather source it from a less...creative author.

And yes, the Batavia incident - the evil that men are capable of. Eh.
 
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#81
I'm reading The Savage Shore by Graham Seal, its about early visitors to Australia ie those who came after the Aborigines and Torres Straits Islanders and before The First Fleet.
 
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Kingsize Wombat

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#82
Is this proof Chinese visited Australia 600 years ago?
Two filmmakers claim to have discovered an ancient bronze statue they say proves Chinese ships visited Australia 600 years ago. But is it a hoax?

Is the discovery of a bronze Buddha statue possibly dating back to the Ming dynasty in the sands of northwestern Australia evidence the Chinese visited and settled here 600 years ago?
Or is the small, very heavy object, which one expert has dated back to the early 1400s, a mere hoax?
Two filmmakers and adventurers have claimed they found the statue on a remote beach in Western Australia’s Gascoyne region.
Leon Deschamps, a second generation historian and photographer from Shark Bay in the Gascoyne, captured the statue’s unearthing with his Finn Films co-director and partner, Shayne Thomson.
The men discovered the statue using metal detectors during filming for a documentary about the early 1800s French exploration of Australia.
Deschamps and Thomson were looking for objects left behind during a Napoleonic-era voyage when they came across the Buddha, which weights 1kg despite its small size.
They have now described the find as possible “evidence the 1421 Chinese Ming Dynasty ‘Treasure Fleets’ exploration of Australia up to two centuries before Europeans”.
Photo and video at the link:
https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/r...o/news-story/3627465273eadc2ac5b24f13ec32725d
 
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#83
Whaler graffiti.

Archaeologists working on islands on Australia's remote north-west coast have discovered engravings left by American whaling crews in the 1840s, giving a glimpse of the tedium and isolation the sailors experienced while at sea for years on end.

Key points:
  • The names and dates were carved by men from two different US whaling boats
  • They are the earliest inscriptions in Australia left by whalers themselves
  • It's believed they reflect the crews passing the time as they watched the sea

The etchings of names and dates have been found on Rosemary and West Lewis islands in the Dampier Archipelago, north-west of Karratha.
"This is the earliest inscription that we have in Australia left behind by the whalers themselves, so it is historically very, very significant," archaeologist Alistair Paterson said.​
"We know that North American whalers, for a 30- or 40-year period, covered the entirety of the world's oceans looking for whales, but we have very little evidence of them actually making landfall, so they're an important find."

The names and dates were carved into the rock by men sailing on two different whale boats, several years apart.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02...ings-of-american-sailors-found-in-wa/10807596
 

AlchoPwn

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#84
I'm reading The Savage Shore by Graham Seal, its about early visitors to Australia ie those who came after the Aborigines and Torres Straits Islanders and before The First Fleet.
Does it go into the Makassan voyages to Australia to harvest Sea Cucumbers? This became the basis for a probable settlement of Koories in Batavia.
 
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#85
Does it go into the Makassan voyages to Australia to harvest Sea Cucumbers? This became the basis for a probable settlement of Koories in Batavia.
Spelled Macassans here, it suggests that contact went on for centuries, likely from at least the 15th century and possibly long before. This is reflected in Yirritja oral traditions and in their art and craft. It includes tales of the Macassans settling for some considerable time in the Kimberley, Arnhem Land and Cape York.
 
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#86
Spelled Macassans here, it suggests that contact went on for centuries, likely from at least the 15th century and possibly long before. This is reflected in Yirritja oral traditions and in their art and craft. It includes tales of the Macassans settling for some considerable time in the Kimberley, Arnhem Land and Cape York.
On page 203 of The Savage Shore there is a report (1803) by the French Explorer Nicolas Baudin of an encounter with a large fleet of pranus off the site of present day Broome. The Macassans traded turtle eggs for biscuits.

On page 183 Jean Gonzal, Captain of the VOC ship Rijder, reports a possible encounter with thylacines on 23 May 1756, they saw two dogs: "not unlike Bengal tigers", near Duyfken Point, Queensland.
 

Kingsize Wombat

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#87
'A big jump': People might have lived in Australia twice as long as we thought

The result of 11 years of research suggests that human habitation could stretch to 120,000 years

Extensive archaeological research in southern Victoria has again raised the prospect that people have lived in Australia for 120,000 years – twice as long as the broadly accepted period of human continental habitation.

The research, with its contentious potential implications for Indigenous habitation of the continent that came to be Australia, has been presented to the Royal Society of Victoria by a group of academics including Jim Bowler, the eminent 88-year-old geologist who in 1969 and 1974 discovered the bones of Mungo Lady and Mungo Man, the oldest human remains found in Australia.

The new research at Moyjil (Point Ritchie), at the mouth of the Hopkins River at Warrnambool, south-east Victoria, relates to the presence of fire, small black stones and scattered shell middens around steep cliffs.

The research is presented in an article, released by CSIRO publishing, titled The Moyjil Site, South-West Victoria, Australia: Fire And Environment In A 120,000-Year Coastal Midden – Nature or People. Its co-authors are David Price from the University of Wollongong, John Sherwood from Deakin University and Stephen Carey from Federation University, Ballarat.
https://www.theguardian.com/austral...ived-in-australia-twice-as-long-as-we-thought
 

AlchoPwn

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#90
I'm thinkingit might be a wee bit more complicated than this.
Ya reckon? I reckon you might be right. I really didn't do it justice. To quote Banjo Patterson, my comment was more of a primitive "thumbnail dipped in tar" generaliation. I bumped into this info in Australia, and even went out to the dig at Lake Mungo, but I don't always have time to keep up with the developments. Australian archaeology is set to ask many questions that Eurocentric archaeology can't answer, and I want to read all about it as it happens. Thanks for the regular posts on the subject K.W.
 
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