Before Columbus Sailed The Ocean Blue

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Anonymous

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Gaelic-speaking native Americans

I seem to recall something about native Americans found speaking Gaelic, but I'm having real trouble locating anything about it. The nearest I can get is that Gaelic is still spoken in pockets of Nova Scotia -- not the same thing! Could anyone give me any pointers on this one?
 
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Anonymous

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I recall hearing about this a couple of years ago, too. There was a study that found there are certain gaelic words that crop up in various native american languages. I think the theory was that some welsh seafarers settled there many centuries ago and peacefully joined the locals. This tied in with welsh myths of people travelling over the sea to a strange land.

I think it was welsh (which I know is celtic/brythonic rather than gaelic), anyway.

Sorry, that's all I can remember.


:)

Later:

I've had a wander round the 'net and found this:

http://www.tylwythteg.com/nativeamer/native2.html

:cool:
 
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Anonymous

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Comes from the legend of Prince Madog of Gwynedd, after whom Porthmadog in Clwyd is supposed to be named. He is one of the many Europeans who allegedly arrived in NA pre-columbus. Im at work now so Ive not got any refs but there were many legends in colonial and early independence period of White Tribes, often referring specifically to welsh speaking indians. A particular tribe at the north of the MIssouri river beginning with "m" spring to mind: will check up. Lewis-Clark (1st to cross from USA to pacific l8 18th or early 19th) expedition was specifically instructed by Jefferson to look for welsh speaking tribe. (Lewis was of welsh descent)
Twll tin pob Sioux
 
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Anonymous

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A particular tribe at the north of the MIssouri river beginning with "m" spring to mind:

The Mandan.

It's also interesting that there are similar tales of bearded men arriving from afar in South America, too.

:)
 
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Anonymous

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Viracocha in Peru and Bolivia (which is still a nickname for bearded white men). But thata a different kettle of Titicaca trout.
 
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Anonymous

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I have been looking into this story recently. Prince Madoc is said to have landed at Mobile Bay, Alabama (I live in Alabama, about 4 1/2 hours northwest of Mobile). I ran across this after a passing mention about a pre-Columbus settlement in Alabama in FT a few months back. I work for Alabama Public Television and have been entertaining thoughts of doing a documentary on the subject. There is even a monument to Prince Madoc in Mobile. There's lots of info on the web. Here are a few:
http://www.madoc1170.com/
http://www.where-can-i-find.com/wales/history/madoc.htm
http://www.barstow.cc.ca.us/wac/madoc.htm
http://home.att.net/~dana.olson/

sureshot
 

rynner2

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Yes, sureshot, a documentary would certainly interest people on this side of the pond as well as your local audience: GO FOR IT!

PS: The word 'audience' seems to refer to something heard, audible - now that many telecomms are mainly visual, should we have a posh word for 'viewers'?!
 

Pete Younger

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I seem to remember a tv program a couple of years ago refering to a small island, I think it was off the coast of Maine, who's inhabitants spoke with a distinctly Cornish accent.
 
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Anonymous

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That's fantastic. Thank you all for taking me right to the heart of it. I was being lead astray, I think, by looking for Gaelic rather than Welsh.

What's been said fits so well with my memory/what I've been told that I'm operating on the assumption that there's no Gaelic story as well.

Now I have to go away and read this up...

Oh, and a documentary on it would be an excellent idea. I can just see it going out on BBC2 or Channel 4 here.

With gratitude

Jon
 

Breakfastologist

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For gaelic travellers, you might want to look up St Brendan. "The Brendan Voyage" by Tim Severin where he goes out Kon Tiki style to prove that it was possible to cross the Atlantic in an old irish style corracle is a fantastic read.
 
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Anonymous

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You might want to try this. I believe it's what you were asking about, unless I'm mistaken.

There was an article here http://www.forteantimes.com/artic/106/melung.html at one time; however, it seems to be MIA now, for some reason.

Interesting stuff--my grandfather claimed to be one of these "black Irish;" of course, he was full of $#!+.
 
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Anonymous

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There are a couple of other non-fortean (ie accepted by the scientific community) celtic speaking Native American stories. Including welsh speaking Araucanian or Mapuche indigenas in Chile (source "In Patagonia" by Bruce Chatwin (not V reliable) and "Travels in an Ancient Tongue" author escapes me but recent and quite well known in UK) and Irish speaking black slaves on Montserrat ("If the Irish ruled the world" Liverpool University Press. Also in lots of linguistics journals esp those dealing with Creoles and Pidgins)
 
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Anonymous

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TorgosPizza said:
Interesting stuff--my grandfather claimed to be one of these "black Irish;" of course, he was full of $#!+.
I always thought that the term "Black Irish" referred to the lower-class Irish peasantry, because they usually had black hair and heavily tanned skin.
 
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Anonymous

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There's something about this in Jan Morris' book "Wales", with some examples of words which show remarkable similarities. I don't have the book with me right now, but I'll look it up when I get home (sherry & mince pies permittnig, of course!). Fascinating! I'd like to see some sort of further investigation / documentary too.

Fizz
 
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Anonymous

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Originally posted by Annasdottir

I always thought that the term "Black Irish" referred to the lower-class Irish peasantry, because they usually had black hair and heavily tanned skin.


You're probably right, I'd guess. If you're interested, hit Google and search for "black irish"--it seems the term's used rather loosely, covering all sorts of people.
 

FelixAntonius

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I don't know if it helps, but John Speed in 1611-12, published a: 'Theatre of the Empire of Great Britaine', which was an atlas of these islands. It included a map of the: 'Kingdome of Irland', with pictures of:-

The Gentleman (& Woman) of Ireland.
The Civil Irish Woman (& man).
The Wild Irish man (& Woman).

I suspect that the last category, were the 'Black Irish'.

The trouble is, that the illustration of the 'Wild Irish Woman', looks exactly like an exgirlfriend of mine!!!!!!!!
 

chickentoast

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I was moving some books around today and picked up this cheesy book "Charles Berlitz's World of Strange Phenomena" that was buried under a load of other books. Leafing through the front index if found a section titled "The Blue Eyed Indians Who Spoke Welsh". Having read this thread a few days ago, thought I'd pass this on:

Berlitz's book, page 85:

"Shortly after the American Revolution ... an English surveying party visited a camp of Mandan Indians in what is now Missouri. When the officer in charge spoke to his orderly in Welsh (they were both Welshmen), they were astonished when a near by Indian suddenly joined in the conversation. Apparently the two palefaces were speaking the indians language. They started to compare words and found that the Mandan language was about 50 percent Welsh. (English: bread, paddle, great, head, etc. Mandan: bara, ree, ma, pan, etc. Welsh: barra, ree/rhwyf, mawr, pen, etc.)"

"In addition ... many of the Mandans had blue eyes, and their skin was of a lighter than that of other Indians. The Mandan women, found to be "exceedingly fair," were especially pleasing to the British explorers."

"Then the English Officer remebered that a Prince Madoc of Wales in A.D. 1170 saild with his retinue to the west into the unknown ocean. ... Some time later most of the Mandans ... were wiped out by a plague brought by the whites."

It's unfortunately just a single page reference with no names of these British explorers, but I'm sure there's plenty more info out there about the Mandan.

~c_toast
 
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Anonymous

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Does this have anything to do with the lost colony of Raleigh?
 

chickentoast

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Do you mean the British colony in Roanoke, N. Carolina? With all that mysterious dissapearing and "CROATAN" messages and such?

Dates for the Roanoke colonies were 1580's, and they were specified only as British in what I've read (which, I must admit, isn't too much) - don't know if any were Welsh speakers. Supposedly, fair skinned/haired/eyed Indians were seen in the area for some years following the disappearance.

The date of contact with the Mandan tribe was post Revolutionary war - so late 1700's (80's/90's?).

It's possible there is a link, but there's around a thousand miles between Missouri and North Carolina. Granted they did have 200 years to migrate this distance, and thats ample time for any Welsh that may have been spoken to assimilate itself into another language. Might have to look into this a little further.

~c_toast
 

Spookdaddy

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In Borderlands Mike Dash mentions a similar story, but in the other direction.

Welsh historians of the Tudor period mention a group of people called the Cochion (red ones) who lived in Coed y Dugoed Mawr (the Great Dark Wood). Apparently very skilled in archery they terrorised the locals so much that some put scythes inside their chimneys to prevent the little buggers climbing down and murdering everyone in their beds. Some modern commentators have suggested they might have been misplaced Native Americans.

Mike Dash also mentions the Siwash who terrorised the Piute indians until finally wiped out. The Siwash were red-haired and cannibalistic and modern Piutes think they may have been misplaced Europeans. Interesting parallel stories.

Incidentally, it should not be that surprising to find Native Americans with European features during the colonial period. During periods of starvation many settlers fled to join local tribes where they knew they would at least be fed and often better treated than by the colonial authorities. The problem was sometimes so serious that the authorities created laws and harsh punishments to try and stop the practice.
 
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Anonymous

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Check out books by Barry Fell. Lots of interesting info about European language in America (before Columbus, etc.).
 

rynner2

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According to a new pot-boiler featured on the Drudge report (link no longer works, must have been censored already!) Americans could end up speaking Spanish, and Europeans Arabic, judging from the way things are going. I don't agree with Pat Buchanan's views on religion (and much else), but some of his other points may have some validity.

Probably the native Americans who encountered the first European colonists never thought that in a few hundred years they'd be speaking English too...

The article itself:
XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX WED JAN 02 2002 08:42:41 ET XXXXX

BUCHANAN DECLARES: DEATH OF THE WEST

The New Year is just minutes old and now comes Pat Buchanan to warn: The Death of the West!

In his ultracontroversial book, which will be banned, blocked and burned in many quarters, brave Buchanan contends that the U.S. will be a Third World nation by the year 2050.

The BestSellingAuthorTVHostPresidentialCandidateColumnist predicts Europe will be inundated by an Islamic-Arab-African invasion and most First World nations, including Japan, will have begun slowly to vanish from the earth.

Buchanan is primed and ready for a media blitz behind DEATH OF THE WEST [ranked #492 on AMAZON's hourly sales chart Wednesday morning], set for release from DUNNE.

Buchanan will light the bonfire on NBC's TODAY show this Friday, according to a network source.

But the DRUDGE REPORT can once again bring you the first sneak.

Relying upon the most recent UN population studies, Buchanan declares:

• By 2050, only 10% of the world’s people will be of European descent. One third of Europe’s people will be over 60, and one-in-ten over 80. Involuntary euthanasia has already come to Europe.

• Between now and 2050, Asia, Africa, and Latin America will grow by three to four billion people -- 30 to 40 new Mexicos! -- as Europe will lose the equivalent of the entire population of Germany, Poland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and Finland.

• By 2050, 23 million Germans will have disappeared along with 16 million Italians and 30 million Russians.

• Russia will lose Siberia and the far east to China and be pushed out of the Caucuses and Central Asia, where Islamic populations are exploding while Russia’s is dying.

• Either Europe must effect a radical cutback in pensions and health care for seniors, or Europe must import scores of millions of Arabs and Africans to care for the elderly and pay the taxes to sustain their welfare states.

• The 4.2 million Palestinians in Israel and on the West Bank and Gaza will explode to 9 million by 2025, and 15 million by 2050, when Palestinians will outnumber Israel’s Jewish population two-to-one.

• America’s “Dual Containment” policy in the Persian Gulf seems unsustainable. In less than 25 years, Iraq will have 42 million people and Iran 94 million people, more than any European nation except Russia.

• The Islamic invasions of Spain and France in the eighth century, and of the Balkans and Central Europe from the 14th to the 17th centuries, will be reenacted in the lifetime of most of those now living. Islam has already surpassed Catholicism as the largest religion on earth.

• It is the Christian nations -- Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox -- that have begun to die. In a chapter titled, “Where Have All the Children Gone?” Buchanan explains why, and why it is unlikely the West can solve the demographic crisis before it leads to The Death of the West.

In his chapter La Reconquista, Buchanan contends that an invasion of the United States is taking place and that America now harbors a “nation within a nation.”

• There are 30 million foreign born in the U.S. today, and between 9 and 11 million illegal aliens, or as many undocumented aliens in the U.S. as there are people in Rhode Island, Massachusetts and Connecticut.

• Mexico is exporting its poor and unemployed for U.S. taxpayers to employ and educate. Radical and militant Hispanics and Mexican leaders alike believe this will lead to the cultural and demographic recapture of the Southwest from America, reversing the results of The Mexican War.

• By supporting open borders, the GOP is committing suicide. First-time Hispanic voters chose Clinton 15-1 over Dole. Of the seven major immigration states -- Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, Illinois, California, Texas and Florida -- Mr. Bush lost five, and perhaps six. Of the 10 states with the smallest share of immigrants, Bush won all 10.

• European-Americans are a minority in America’s most populous state, California, and by 2004, will be a minority in Texas.

• The political agenda of California Hispanics includes d Western civilization disparaged and demeaned.

• When Mel Gibson’s film, “The Patriot,” came out in 2000, it was savagely attacked for presenting black Americans as fighting patriots in the Revolutionary War.

• With the assault on Confederate books, symbols, flags, heroes, and holidays almost complete, the attack is now proceeding against the Puritan fathers, soldiers who fought in The Mexican War, and, in New Jersey, even against the Declaration of Independence itself.

• In some school districts, Mark Twain, Flannery O’Connor, and any realistic portrayal of the America South, including Harper’ Lee’s To Kill a Mockingbird, are now forbidden.

• Even the great museums on America’s Mall, to introduce school children to the greatness and glory of America’s past, are being used to indoctrinate children in how wicked and evil our forefathers were.

In his chapter, “The De-Christianization of America,” Buchanan argues that the death of the Christian faith in Western countries is a primary cause of their dying populations. Whenever faith dies, the people die. A new atheistic civilization is arising, he argues, and is using its dominance of the culture and the courts to drive Christianity out of the temples of our civilization.

• Secular Humanism, widely mocked and disparaged, a few decades ago, is now the dominant faith of the nation’s cultural elites. The moral tenets of humanism are replacing those of Christianity in our public life.

• Even Christian churches are rewriting their hymnals to make them acceptable to the dominant culture.

• Anti-Catholic films and filthy and blasphemous anti-Christian art are the deliberate insults of a triumphant pagan and secularist faith.

The book's publication was delayed after September terror.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Filed By Matt Drudge
Reports are moved when circumstances warrant
http://www.drudgereport.com for updates
(c)DRUDGE REPORT 2002
Not for reproduction without permission of the author
 
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Anonymous

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Re Buchanans Predictions.

Good. Just goes to show "Capitalism's a nice idea, but (patronising smirk) IT DOESNT WORK IN PRACTICE". The Romanovs had it coming anyway, even the dogs.
 
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Anonymous

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Personally i hope Buchanan's predictions come to pass, just think in 200 years there may be no white, or black people left, only shades of brown. The end of racism the end of one source of conflict.:D
 
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Anonymous

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What, you don't think people will start to dislike the other shades of brown?

I think he could be right, and it would be bad. A muslim empire would not be a good idea. One dark age is enough for Europe. However indians and such getting America back sounds like a good idea. The forefathers _were_ cruel and evil.
 

rynner2

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Some of the native American tribes were cruel and warlike too.

The idea that they all lived 'in harmony with nature' is a bit of an old chestnut too - some tribes would drive herds of buffalo over cliffs, and then only eat, say, the tongues. Hardly harmonious, or eco-friendly.

You cannot say that people of this race or that race are good or bad - there are only good or bad peple, or groups of people. Sweeping generalisations are not helpful.

I doubt if the human race will ever become a homogenous brown colour - genetics is too fickle for that. (There was a case on TV recently where a black couple had THREE white children because of a rare gene pairing.) And removing extremes of white or black would also reduce genetic diversity, which would be A BAD THING.

Best if we can learn to forget prejudice and all live in peace together.
 
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Anonymous

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Uhh, do tell me more about that tribe. I also get really annoyed from hearing people talk about "living in harmony with nature."
 
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Anonymous

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I think an important distinction to make here is around the language. Gaelic is generally used to indicate Native Scottish dialects and the greater part of Irish, of which the Scottish dialects are mostly offshoots. Whereas Welsh is an entirely different lagnuage from a another root. So, if there is a phenomenon of Welsh speaking Native Americans then that would be a different kettle or horses from Americans speaking Irish or Scotiish Gaelic languages.

The Tim Severin voyages which took St. Brendan account boats to the east coast of the American continent have shown that it was certainly possible to experienced seaman. That and the fact that Leaf Erikson made it all the way to Nova Scotia at around the time when there were already thriving Viking colonies in Ireland provide examples of verifiable vectors for Gaelic languages to get to continental America.

Interesting possibilities.

LD
 

Bilderberger

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First Westerners to Reach America?

[Emp edit: This thread is for general discussion of pre-Columbian 'discovery' of the Americas. For discussion of the first colonisation of the continent see this thread:

http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18197

Two other possibly relevant threads:

Melungeons
http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4420

Vinland Map:
http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4607 ]

OK - lets work back. Columbus? Vikings? Celts? Phoenicians? Egyptians? Anyone go back further than that? (apart from the original settlement!!!).

Also, why, when the evidence for Celtic settlement on US soil is so strong (e.g. Barry Fell's classic "forbidden" archaeology book - "America BC") do people get so excited about Columbus? It is like believing that Bill Gates invented the computer.
 

hallybods

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There is a possibility that either the Celts or Vikings may have visited North America. I vaguely remember seeing something about ancient caucasian remains being found that may predate the native Indian's arrival. If I remember correctly the Indians demanded the remains back before they could be studied. I had the feeling that they were worried in case it was found that they were not the first settlers.

The Phoenicians were master sailors and it wouldn't be beyond the realms of belief that with plenty of provisions they could have made it across to South America. There are examples of ancient Aztec or Inca art showing distinctly African faces too. Just a couple of theories to band about. ;)
 
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