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Before Columbus Sailed The Ocean Blue

roman bust from presumed shipwreck-
fine, but it could have been from an 18th century or 19th century shipwreck (or later)
an object like this provides a 'terminus ante quem'
that is the bust cannot have been deposited before the roman period, but any later date whatsoever is valid.
 
You are, of course, absolutely correct. However, the terminus post quem is 1510 - as it was found underneath an undisturbed floor dating to 1510. That only gives 18 years after Columbus. It may not have been brought by a Roman ship - but chances are it ended up there prior to 1492 (although by no means certain).
 
Bilderberger said:
You are, of course, absolutely correct. However, the terminus post quem is 1510 - as it was found underneath an undisturbed floor dating to 1510. That only gives 18 years after Columbus. It may not have been brought by a Roman ship - but chances are it ended up there prior to 1492 (although by no means certain).
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Excellent!
If you eliminate the impossible what remains, however unlikely, is the truth.
So, it was brought as some bizarre trade item and buried, or it was, as you say, washed up from the wreck of Asterix and Obelix's ship
 
Bump! Two threads merged. (Although 'First Westerners to reach America' was started earlier, I've retained the simpler title of the newer one, as it covers arrivals from all directions.)
 
I seem to recall that there is somewhere on the South or Meso American coast a place where the remains of amphora's (amphorae???) are found
 
ROMANS IN RIO?

intaglio said:
I seem to recall that there is somewhere on the South or Meso American coast a place where the remains of amphora's (amphorae???) are found
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http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf028/sf028p01.htm

ROMANS IN RIO?

In 1976, diver Jose Roberto Texeira salvaged two intact amphorae from the bottom of Guanabara Bay, 15 kilometers from Rio de Janeiro. Six years later, archeologist Robert Marx found thousands of pottery fragments in the same locality, including 200 necks from amphorae.

Amphorae are tall storage vessels that were used widely throughout ancient Europe. These particular amphorae are of Roman manufacture, circa the second century B.C. Much controversy erupted around the finds because Spain and Portugal both claim to have discovered Brazil around 1500 A.D. Roman artifacts were distinctly unwelcome. More objectively, the thought of an ancient Roman crossing of the Atlantic is not so farfetched. Roman wrecks have been discovered in the Azores; and the shortest way across the Atlantic is from Africa to Brazil -- only 18 days using modern sailing vessels.

(Sheckley, Robert; "Romans in Rio," Omni, 5:43, June 1983.)
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I could only find reference to this on sites dealing with Atlantis and such. seems to be an 'anomoly', but i can't verify it.

Theres a small mention Here with a picture of the roman bust discussed earlier.
Link is dead. The MIA webpage can be accessed via the Wayback Machine:

https://web.archive.org/web/20021220095613/http://www.andrewcollins.net/page/articles/romanbust.htm

Also here and here
Second link is dead. The MIA webpage can be accessed via the Wayback Machine:

https://web.archive.org/web/2003021...ckwalk.com/issues/2002/february/trivia1.shtml

Here's the introductory portion of the text from the second link:

Two thousand years ago, the most valuable commodity “known to man” was salt. This is because most fresh meats and fish were preserved by packing in salt. In fact, salt was so valuable, it was used in place of coinage. This is where the word “salary” emerged (as well as the expression “he’s not worth his salt”). The Romans had a large salt production facility on Ilha do Sal (Salt Island) in the Cape Verde Islands, which are 350 miles off the coast of West Africa. This location is directly in the path of the hot, dry winds of the Sahara Desert, which can easily blow 60 knots from the east. It is believed that this Roman merchant vessel was heading for Salt Island to pick up a load of salt and to provision the local army garrison when a fierce Sahara storm started. Roman ships were clumsy by modem standards and would have no choice but to lower their sails and to run with the winds to avoid capsizing. The Sahara winds can blow for many days and the Salt Ship was carried to Guanabara Bay (near Rio de Janeiro) in Brazil. In the middle of the - Bay is a large submerged rock lying 3’ below the surface called Xareu Rock (named after a local fish that congregates here). The ship appears to have been travelling at a high rate of speed when she struck the rock. She broke into two pieces and settled in 75’ of water near the base of the rock. ...
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It seems the Brazilian government is not keen on authenticating this as the Italian consulate claims since the Romans were the first to "discover" Brazil, then all Italian immigrants should be granted immediate citizenship !

Politics!
 
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History of Archaeology

If you study the history of archaeology and paleontology, you find those pursuits have always been subject to the worst kind of politics, not only amongst the academics themselves, but from the nationalists, racists, and other strangers who intrude upon things as if from above.

Archaeology may have begun as little more than knowledgeable looting, but politcal control of the interpretation of, and often access to, archaeological sites and finds has always been the way.

And so it is still.
 
It just struck me that there can't have been any 'significant' pre-columbian contact with the americas, as their isolation from the rest of the world became apparent with the devastion caused by 'Old World' diseases such as Smallpox & influenza, which ravaged the continents in the years after columbus.
 
Very Good Thought

4imix - Excellent thought, and quite likely true. There could have been isolated, brief contacts though, which carried no major disease. Incidentally, we may soon be able to trace such things as viral DNA signatures and figure this out.
 
Other indirect evidence for pre-Combian contact is the fact that both the Incas and the Aztecs had stories of white bearded men (whom they took to be gods) arriving from the East.

They called the leader Quetzalcoatl, and believed that the Spanish invasion under Cortes was the promised return of Quetzalcoatl, which partly explains how Cortes conquered them so easily.

No doubt there is more detail on the web for those interested.
 
Templars?

The Knights Templar, destroyed as a coherent group by the King of France on Friday the 13th of May in 1307, may have inadvertently been sent scurrying to their ships and thence to the new world, where a single small contingent of them in a ship would have sufficed to create these legends, which may or may not be as ancient as some claim.

Most ended up on the Western coasts of Scotland and Ireland, remember, but a few vanished. (Other than those burned at the stake of course. Banking was harsh back then. lol)

And the Templars had top-notch ships and sailing abilities, having been traders, among other things. They also had motivation to go there, as the scrolls they found cite Merica as a star in the west under which a promised land awaits.
 
This theory is furthered by the carvings of maize and aloe plants in the fabric of the Rosslyn Chapel building - which is rife with Templar/Masonic history.

These carvings were made decades before Columbus - further proof of Templars in the Americas?

Looking at the pictures in my copy of "The Hiram Key" - one has to wonder how liberal the interpretation of a plant-like design as specifically "maize" and "aloe" really is.

Interesting theory nonetheless and I am pretty sure that there is more "proof" in "The Hiram Key" - but I haven't got the time to read it all again now:)
 
The Hiram Key

Excellent book, yes, and the plants carved into Rosslyn Chapel 22 years before Columbus sailed (thereabouts) are pretty damned close. Maize as pictured is exactly like that, not the big GM ears of corn we're used to these days, and aloe looks just like that, too. They should have placed pictures of the actual plants beside the carving pictures to let people compare, but The Hiram Key is a very well-written and researched book worth everyone's time.

I suspect there is a bit of interpretation going on, sure. Then again, what else might those carvings represent?
 
rynner said:
Other indirect evidence for pre-Combian contact is the fact that both the Incas and the Aztecs had stories of white bearded men (whom they took to be gods) arriving from the East.

They called the leader Quetzalcoatl, and believed that the Spanish invasion under Cortes was the promised return of Quetzalcoatl, which partly explains how Cortes conquered them so easily.

No doubt there is more detail on the web for those interested.
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Quetzalcoatl is a central american culture hero. Literally 'Quetzal-Serpent' the feathered snake. assiciated with sky and wind, his temple in Tenochtitlan (Mexico City) was circular, so he (wind) could 'Flow' around it. this god does not feature in Mayan Cosmology until sometime into the Post Classic (from C900AD) where he is thought to have been introduced by toltec invaders from central mexico, and known as Kukulcan (Kuk=Quetzal, Can=Serpent)

There is also a Semi-mythical figure associated with Quetzalcoatl. A one time king of Tula, the Toltec capital north of Mexico city, Topiltzin Quetzalcoatl, was said to have been a benevolent ruler, who was a patron of the arts and despised war and human sacrifice, even outlawing the latter. His rivalfor power, the sorceror Tezcatlipoca (Smoking Mirror) was incensed by this and conspired to rid Tula of Quetzalcoatl. he tried many things, to no avail, but eventually managed to get Quetzalcoatl (Who Didn't drink) drunk on maize beer, and got got his sister to seduce him. Quetzalcoatl was so shamed by his actions the next day, he fled the city with his followers, east towards the coastand set sail eastwards on a reed raft, promising one day to return and claim his throne. some say he set fire to the raft at sea and ascended the heavens, others that he landed on the Yucatan coast at Campeche, where he defeated the local maya, moved inland and founded a new toltec-maya dynasty at chichen itza. which bears remarkable similarity of design to Tula.

Quetzalcoatl was supposedly (in some versions of the legend) fair of skin and bearded, though beards were not uncommon in maesoamrican societies, mochetazuma himself was bearded.

Quetzalcoatl was prophecied to return in a year '1 reed' (Mesomerican peoples had a cyclical calender which repeated every 52 years) which, coincidentally, happened to fall on the 'Christian year' 1519, the year in which Cortes landed in Mexico, Giving the Conquistadores a Psychological advantage of 52:1

It is said that Mochetazuma, on hearing of white, bearded strangers approaching from the east, feared Cortes was QuetzalCoatl himself, returning to claim his throne (The Aztec saw themselves as the Cultural heirs to the Toltec) Allegedly proclaiming to cortes upon meeting him

"My Lord, we have kept your throne safe and guarded your lands for your return'

There is also a lot of 'Stories' linking Quetzalcoalt to Jesus. i beleive this is a Mormon idea.

There is no Inca quetzalcoatl :D perhaps rynner, you're thinking of Viracocha the Inca Sky God

When we talk of the Aztec defeat, we tend to think in terms of the 'White God Myth' these poor, idiotic, barbarous natives just failed to comprehend the Awesome power of the white man. we forget that cortes utilized the almost universal hatred for the Aztec Overlords, and that he had 10,000 Tlaxcalan Warriors at his disposal, as well as many other American auxilliaries.

Mochetazuma was a Superstitious individual, much given to signs and portents, and fatally dithered at a crucial time, when his people needed him. hence he was deposed and replaced by Cuitlahuac, who died shortly after of Smallpox, and succeded by Cuahtemoc, the last aztec ruler. Unfortunately, by this time, the smallpox epidemic had begun to take hold........

Theres a film called Q, The winged serpent, starring david carradine, which is good for a laugh. its about a detective
In New York, who is investigating a series of murders by Heart Sacrifice or Skin Flailing can't remember which. leads him to an 'Aztec Priest' who proclaims the return of Quetzalcoatl. lo & Behold theres a ray harryhausen monster holed up in the Chrysler Building. Great stuff :D

for those interested, An excellent overview of Mesoamerican History and Archaeology is Mexico by Micheal D Coe, and its companion book 'The Maya'

A good account of the Conquest of Mexico is given by Micheal wood in 'Conquistadors' also a BBC tv Series. for a first hand account read 'the conquest of new spain' by 'Bernal Diaz' a conquistador in cortes' army.
 
back on topic (sort of)

The case for precolumbian contact between Europe and America was made stronger some years ago by the discovery of the skeleton of a syphilitic monk in Hull dating back to 1216
This disease was previously thought to have been brought back from America with the early Spanish explorers.
There was a TV programme about it but I can only find a brief reference on the web (near the bottom of the page)...

Mind you epidemiologists (sp?) nowadays say syphilis has always been in Europe but the tell tale signs were hidden by all the other signs of poverty displayed by european skeletons in medieval times.
 
Re: back on topic (sort of)

Eburacum45 said:
The case for precolumbian contact between Europe and America was made stronger some years ago by the discovery of the skeleton of a syphilitic monk in Hull dating back to 1216
This disease was previously thought to have been brought back from America with the early Spanish explorers.
There was a TV programme about it but I can only find a brief reference on the web (near the bottom of the page)...

Mind you epidemiologists (sp?) nowadays say syphilis has always been in Europe but the tell tale signs were hidden by all the other signs of poverty displayed by european skeletons in medieval times.
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I saw the prog, what it was suggesting was that syphillis was always present in Europe, and that 'Evolved' into an aggressive form around ports where 'Extreme Partying' took place! the suggestion was that the Syphilis 'Native' to the Americas was a childhood disease, rather than an STD, common but harmless, and that Europeans actually infected them with the aggressive form. the first recorded instance was the seige of naples, Can't remembr the date but it was after 1492, so was ascribed to that contact.

Sorrry if that doesn't make sense, but it was awhile ago, and i remember the general drift.

lopaka:

Sorry about that, i'm not having a go. i'm just trying to emphasise that science has a history of cultural ignorance and lack of respect.........

http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/tasmania.html

William Lanney, facetiously known as King Billy, was the last full-blood male Tasmanian. He was born in 1835 and grew up on Flinders Island. At the age of thirteen Lanney was removed with the remnant of his people to a concetration camp called Oyster Cove. Ultimately he became a sailor and some years he went whaling. As the last male Tasmanian, Lanney was regarded as a human relic. In January 1868 he was introduced to Prince Albert. He returned ill from a whaling voyage in February 1860, and on March 2, 1860 he died in his room at the Dog and Partridge public-house in Hobart, Tasmania

Lanney, the subject of ridicule in life, became, in death, a desirable object. Even while he lay in the Colonial Hospital at least two persons determined to have his bones. They claimed to act in the interest of the Royal Society of Tasmania. On March 6, 1860, the day of the funeral, fifty or sisty residents interested in Lanney gathered at the hospital. Rumors were circulating that the body had been mutilated and, to satisfy the mourners, the coffin was opened. When those who wished to do so had seen the body, the coffin was closed and sealed. Meanwhile it was reported that, on the preceding night, a surgeon had entered the dead-house where Lanney lay, skinned the head, and removed the skull.

Reportedly, the head of a patient who had died in the hospital on the same day was similarly skinned, and the skull was placed inside Lanney's scalp and the skin drawn over it. Members of the Royal Society were "greatly annoyed" at being thus forstalled and, as body- snatching was expected, it was decided that nothing should be left worth taking and Lanney's hands and feet were cut off. In keeping with the tradition no one was punished. William Lanney, the last Black man in Tasmania, was gone.

On May 7, 1876, Truganini, the last full-blood Black person in Tasmania, died at seventy-three years of age. Her mother had been stabbed to death by a European. Her sister was kidnapped by Europeans.

Her intended husband was drowned by two Europeans in her presence, while his murderers raped her.

It might be accurately said that Truganini's numerous personal sufferings typify the tragedy of the Black people of Tasmania as a whole. She was the very last. "Don't let them cut me up," she begged the doctor as she lay dying. After her burial, Truganini's body was exhumed, and her skeleton, strung upon wires and placed upright in a box, became for many years the most popular exhibit in the Tasmanian Museum and remained on display until 1947. Finally, in 1976--the centenary years of Truganini's death--despite the museum's objections, her skeleton was cremated and her ashes scattered at sea.

.
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There's a recent article in the Economist of 14.12.02...

The Book of Mormon, tries to claim that todays Native Americans are decendants of lost Isralites who sailed over the Atlantic about 2K years ago. They then claim that they split int two tribes, the "fair skinned" Nephites & the "dark skinned" Lamanites.

The Nephites then got wiped out leaving the Lamanites who then became the current Native Americans.

This is all greatly ammusing to all non Mormons, but in the last few weeks one Thomas Murphy, who teaches at a community college north of Seattle & is a devout Mormon, has stuck his head over the parapet & suggested that this does not equate with the genetic evidence.

It seems that Salt Lake City was not amused & Mr Murphy faced excommunication early in December, since postponed.

"Of course North America was broadly populated by peoples from Asia" Says Daniel Peterson a professor of Brigham Young University. "That doesent mean that a few very small migrations-numbering fewer than 100 people-couldn't have come in through a different route "

Which, to get to the point, makes me wonder how much of this "First American" business, is being forced on by a religious perspective?
 
May as well lob this one into the discussion - Tiahuanacu

The article says nothing really new (and veers towards the loopy fringe at one point, talking of vast underground tunnels and cities), but this is an interesting site, possibly 17,000 years old.
Although today the nearest body of water, Lake Titicaca, is some 15 miles away, numerous archaeological studies indicate Tiahunacu was once a large thriving seaport where literally hundreds of ships may have docked. Historians think the original city was built when the shore was only 600 feet away.

Built before the Great Flood of the Old Testament, the city is one of the oldest on the planet -- if not the oldest.
....
The gate of the sun

The 10-ton Gateway to the Sun is monolithic, carved from a single block of Andesite granite. It is broken through the center, leading investigators to wonder what sort of tremendous forces could have achieved this feat.

The upper portions of the gate are carved with beautiful and intricate designs, including a human figure, condors, toxodons, elephants and some symbols. Directly in the center is the so-called Sun God with rays shooting from its face in all directions. The god is holding a stylized staff in each hand which may represent thunder and lightning. It is sometimes referred to as the "weeping god" because tears are carved on its cheeks.

The figures flanking the centerpiece are unfinished, causing viewers to wonder what could have interrupted the craftsmen. Of the animals represented on the gate, two have been extinct for thousands of years. Jaguars and condors are still with us, but toxodons and elephants can no longer be found in the area. History shows that an elephant-like creature thrived in the area during the Pleistocene era, some 11,000-12,000 years ago.
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Gryphons

Would finding gryphons and the Medusa and so on carved into Ancient Greek gates lead us to conclude the site dated back to when such creatures frolicked?

Mythology and oral tradition may well account for the accurate (?) depictions of toxodons and elephant-like beasts carved into the "gate of the sun" at Tiahuanacu.

It's also quite possibly 17,000 years old, we don't yet know. And another possibility, since the Pleistocene lasted from 11,000 to 2 million years ago, that a group of such animals lasted longer than we thought, as a population of mastodons may have existed into historical times on an island in northern Russia, for example.
 
Toxodons

They're those big saber-toothed sloth-looking things.
 
oh THEM! i know what you mean... It does strike me that they could be drawing generic big beasties, that happened to come out looking like toxodons, but then I am fairly stupid.
 
Not Stupid At All

Faggus - Now now, you're not stupid at all. This is indeed quite possible. Human minds work in closely parallel ways through history and all over the globe. The same basic patterns arise over and over. It's very possible they were making things up and happened to make a drawing that accidently resembles a real animal.

It's also possible that the description or even drawings (carvings) were passed down from the time 11,000 years ago or so when the beasts still existed.

Think of the Dodo, which is extinct but which most of us know about. Most of us could draw one well enough that others would recognize what it is, even if we're just aping Tenniel's drawings in the Alice books.

And every kid has vivid images of dinosaurs, and could draw various types scientists might recognize.

Also keep in mind, we don't know how accurate the carvings on the "gate of the sun" at Tiahuanacu are. They could be vague, or anatomically correct. Most likely they're somewhere in between. We also don't know how stylized they are, either.

Interesting report, though. And there seem to be other reasons why they suspect Tiahuanaco could be 17,000 years old, too. To prove this would revolutionize many things.
 
ColorGate.jpg

Link to remote image is dead, so the nature of the image is unknown.

Here is a picture that I have found: I can't make out any elephants from where I am, but it gives an indication of detail and style.

Here is a substitute image of the purported "elephant" carved on the Gate of the Sun. The relevant portion is within the highlighted subsection. Some claim it is a frontal view of an elephant-like head.

Tiwanaku-Elephant?.jpg
​
 
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and this
Toxodon.jpg
is a copy of the alleged toxodon
The image is MIA, and the link to the remotely-hosted image is dead.
Here is a substitute image of 2 Tiwanaku figures alleged by some to represent a taxodon.

Tiwanaku-Taxodon?.jpg

​
NOTE: The taxodon was a large bulky mammal analogous to a rhino or hippopotamus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxodon
 
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Von Daniken?

Okay, on the bottom row of carvings on the large picture of the gate, there are two adjacent carvings about a quarter of the way from the right edge that, when taken together, could be interpreted as an elephant.

As for the alleged toxodon, where are the big curved teeth, which are so much a part of them?

Judging from these pictures I'd have to say the interpretations we were treated to in that article border on the Von Daniken.

By the way, excellent ferreting, Faggus.
 
Well, seeing as I started one of the two merged threads that dealt with this issue - I guess some explanation of my "motivation" is now required!

Quite simple - it is interesting. Nothing political to it. To be honest, the main thing that fascinates me is nothing to do with who actually got to America first - but the possibility that conventional history underestimates the skills and technology of man prior to the renaissance. The possibilty (and there is certainly no more than that) that our ancient European cilivilasation travelled on a more Global scale is........well......interesting ( can I think of no more interesting word?:D ).

It is quite true that many special interest groups (religious, political and cultural) use such research to bang home their own agenda and that it is virtually improssible to "research" any subject without an individual's personal frame of reference biaising their reaction to information. However, that is no reason not to conduct or be interested in the subject. No wicked agenda exists on this board (as far as I can tell).

But, then again, being part of the world's biggest bastard race (England), the whole issue of ancestry and original land rights is not of any relevance to me.
 
OY!! Hancock, NO!!

Radiocarbon dating at Tiahuanaco (Tiwanaku) has shown the site to be no more than 2400 Years old. early settlement began at the site c400BC, beginning a long, 5 Phase Occupation. Large scale building projects began during Phase 3 (c AD 100-375) while the 'Classic' Tiahuanaco ran through phase 4 (ad 375- 700) During phase 4 Tiahanaco attained true 'empire' status, dominating the surrounding area and establishing a Heirarchy of administrative centers, as well as far-flung colonies throughout the Altiplano, The Puna, and the lowlands of southern Peru and northern Chile.

I cannot find any reference to 'Elephant' figures on the Gateway of the sun. there are anthropormorphic Condor headed figures, as well as the 'Gateway God' himself, thought to represent Viracocha. though are we from this to infer that the site was built by Human-Condor Hybrids? frankly i find the idea that Tiwanaku is part of some ancient Atlantis Ludicrous and somewhat rascist (How on earth could those stupid indians have built this. must have been some white Bearded man they thought was a god) , and flies in the face of all the evidence we have of the place.

Radiocarbon Dating at Tiahuanaco Here

Tiahuanaco

http://134.29.9.229/archaeology/sites/south_america/tiwanaku.html

http://www.jqjacobs.net/andes/tiwanaku.html

http://www.intersurf.com/~chalcedony/Tiwanaku.html
 
In the back of my mind was an example of racist archeology relating to Zimbabwe and some of the impressive structures discovered by the Western world. It is pleasing to note that although I graduated 8 years ago - I can still remember something and Google uncovered the following:

"When Portuguese traders first encountered the vast stone ruins of Great Zimbabwe in the sixteenth century, they believed they had found the fabled capital of the Queen of Sheba. Later travelers surmised that the site's impressive stone structures were the work of Egyptians, Phoenicians, or even Prester John, the legendary Christian king of lands beyond the Islamic realm. Such misguided and romantic speculation held for nearly 400 years, until the excavations of British archaeologists David Randall-MacIver and Gertrude Caton-Thompson early in this century, which confirmed that the ruins were of African origin."

http://www.archaeology.org/9807/abstracts/africa.html

Basically, it was deemed impossible for African civilization to produce anything so advanced - it must have been the Egyptians, Phoenicians or, my favourite, good old Prester John.
 
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