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Billy Meier

I think that the only way that Meir ( Or any other claimant for that matter ) can get people to believe is if he invites the media to one of his encounters. Let him prove without a shadow of a doubt that they exist!

But I'm not holding my breath! :snore:
 
People, people, when you will you learn to............THINK!

Mr. Jones swings a piece of space metal slowly and in a calm voice says.....Buy the books, buy the dvds....buy the books buy the dvds.......buy the bo.........zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ;)
peace
=^..^=217
 
COMING SOOON!!!!
7 inch plates sprayed silver with ball bearings glued to them and an old 70s LED heat massager attached to the bottom! AMAZE your friends! Tell them to buy our Books and DVDs and put a poster of Michael Horn on their walls and repeat, "I have studied this for over 25 years!"

PMSL!!! :lol:
 
You boys are all very, very naughty. Any more of this UFO-worshipper baiting and I'll be forced to send you all to your rooms. :no-no:

Don't forget, that nice Mr Tony Blair is about to make joking about other people's religions (no matter how loopy) a potential crime. :(
 
Base ball capped hooded scum youths can trash your car, smash your garden and throw dog crap at your windows and terrorise the elderly...but if you say something funny about a scientologist, you will be arrested! Hmmmmm.... Lizards!!!! :D

"Sir David Ike" lol!
 
vogel7fire said:
Metal is metal, and the elements on other planets or in other solar systems have the same characteristics as those in our own.

We don't really know that unless some unknown metallurgist has been travelling backward and forwards in time on ships, collecting interplanetary and interstellar samples, and doing unpublished comparative studies, eh?
The laws of physics are observed to be the same throughout the visible universe; many elements (including Helium) were in fact first discovered by spectroscopy and only later found on Earth. So yes, astronomers routinely prospect for metal and other elements and compounds among the stars; the elements they find have the same properties out there as they do here.
But your questions have been the same as mine. How do you know that a sample is of ET origin? The sample that Marcel Vogel examined was evidently not just metal. It was both metal and crystal at the same time.
Does matter like that exist on earth?

vogel7fire

Metal and crystal at the same time? Sounds like a bad case of metal fatigue. Metals do form crystalline structures under certain common circumstances, cast iron being a common example. But a metallurgist would know that.

As far as isotope ratios go, that can be used to determine the provenance of metal artifacts in archaeology, as long as the item concerned is made of metal from a single source. Mix metal from a variety of different sources together and eventually it becomes untraceable, and might as well come from Zeta II Reticuli .
 
Eburacum45: It would be unwise to assume that there may not be the possibility of some kind of compositional or structural diffrences due to industrial processes we don't know about (or zero gravity processes that are difficult to replicate, etc.). Granted space metal may be indistinguishable from earth metal but any tests would be twofold:

1. To check the claims made that they don't appear to be of terrestrial manufacture.

2. To see if anything unusual does show up - you never know ;)
 
spillage said:
...and 3. To see if it's a pan lid.

That falls under 1 and 2 ;)

I will personally ensure pan lids are in the refercne samples (probably).
 
Emperor wrote:
It would be unwise to assume that there may not be the possibility of some kind of compositional or structural diffrences due to industrial processes we don't know about (or zero gravity processes that are difficult to replicate, etc.).

Spot on! I'm recently hearing that the "alleged" alloys that the "alleged Plejarens" left with Billy Meier are samples of what they build their ships with -- there's a possible industrial process involved -- hadn't thought of a zero gravity process, but that makes sense. If that were the case, they might prove to be of ET origin, but not necessarily of Plejaren origin.

From what I'm gathering here, most of you seem to have essentially decided to dismiss the case, as I thought you might. If you haven't, just where do you want this discussion to go now? Some other people have been silently watching, and I believe they would be willing to come in if you want to establish some kind of reasoned debate, new thread or discussion. I assure you, they are not "Meier Messiah evangelists" or internet nutters. They are highly educated critical thinkers who could bring some fresh perspectives. One in particular is a well-researched UFOlogist in his own right, knows the Meier material backwards and forwards and is not a fan of the case. You see, I'm willing, as someone here said, to proceed with the pros and cons of the issues here.

Thoughts, any of you bad boys? :no-no:
Thoughts, any of you good boys and girls? ;)
 
vogel7fire said:
Emperor wrote:
It would be unwise to assume that there may not be the possibility of some kind of compositional or structural diffrences due to industrial processes we don't know about (or zero gravity processes that are difficult to replicate, etc.).

Spot on! I'm recently hearing that the "alleged" alloys that the "alleged Plejarens" left with Billy Meier are samples of what they build their ships with -- there's a possible industrial process involved -- hadn't thought of a zero gravity process, but that makes sense. If that were the case, they might prove to be of ET origin, but not necessarily of Plejaren origin.

From what I'm gathering here, most of you seem to have essentially decided to dismiss the case, as I thought you might. If you haven't, just where do you want this discussion to go now? Some other people have been silently watching, and I believe they would be willing to come in if you want to establish some kind of reasoned debate, new thread or discussion. I assure you, they are not "Meier Messiah evangelists" or internet nutters. They are highly educated critical thinkers who could bring some fresh perspectives. One in particular is a well-researched UFOlogist in his own right, knows the Meier material backwards and forwards and is not a fan of the case. You see, I'm willing, as someone here said, to proceed with the pros and cons of the issues here.

Thoughts, any of you bad boys? :no-no:
Thoughts, any of you good boys and girls? ;)

Well I say come one come all - despite signs to the contrary we are interested in hearing from people's points of view and try not to dismiss them out of hand. I'm afraid Michael Horn may have rather muddied the water for any other Hornista (Billites?) but if people have information or insight then I for one would be interested to hear it.
 
Emperor,

Is this more English slang I need to learn?
. . . may have rather muddied the water for any other Hornista (Billites?). . .

"Hornista (Billites?)" - don't have a clue, Emps :?:
Well, thanks for being open to new input. Hopefully a couple others are joining us as we speak, but the registration approval process takes a day, or two, or three?
 
vogel7fire said:
Emperor,

Is this more English slang I need to learn?
. . . may have rather muddied the water for any other Hornista (Billites?). . .

"Hornista (Billites?)" - don't have a clue, Emps :?:
Well, thanks for being open to new input. Hopefully a couple others are joining us as we speak, but the registration approval process takes a day, or two, or three?

I think Emps is refering to Billy Meier 'cultees' or true believers, such as Michael Horn.

When this thread started, I was quite interested in re-examining the Meier case, but the nature of Horn's rants quickly turned me off. He kept exhorting us to look at the evidence, but never really presented any good evidence. This is a message board, and for people to discuss things, things must be clearly laid out here. It's no good telling people to go away and study what increasingly to me looks like a load of piffle. I have more important things to do, like play Free Cell!

But any good evidence, uncluttered by dogmatic beliefs, will get my attention.
 
Spot on :). Of course the silent watchers are welcome - fresh perspectives can invigorate any discussion. By all means refer to your own works elsewhere, with appropriate quotes and links (should people wish to read further) as reference to elaborate your point, just so long as all posters remember that reasoned debate doesn't include quoting yourself and citing your own website as corroborative evidence for your own view.
 
Nice one Stu.
"Some other people have been silently watching, and I believe they would be willing to come in if you want to establish some kind of reasoned debate, new thread or discussion. I assure you, they are not "Meier Messiah evangelists" or internet nutters. They are highly educated critical thinkers who could bring some fresh perspectives. One in particular is a well-researched UFOlogist in his own right, knows the Meier material backwards and forwards and is not a fan of the case. "
Does that mean they are colleagues of yours? I always get a bit suspicious when new posters appear on forums dedicated to the discussion about religious cults, expecially when they turn out to be advocating them. (Re- Horn and the Above Top Secret Forum newbies)
It will be interesting to see what these new members post.
As Emps, Rynner and Stu say...all new imput is appreciated. We will, however...suss out the propagandarists! ;)
 
vogel7fire said:
Emperor,

Is this more English slang I need to learn?
. . . may have rather muddied the water for any other Hornista (Billites?). . .

"Hornista (Billites?)" - don't have a clue, Emps :?:

Just me being a little silly but as rynner says I was seeking a term for those who unquestionningly accept the reality of just about everything connected with the case and aren't open to people actually having doubts.

vogel7fire said:
Well, thanks for being open to new input. Hopefully a couple others are joining us as we speak, but the registration approval process takes a day, or two, or three?

Accounts are approved in batches but (this goes for everyone) if someone here drops one of us a note vouching for someone we can go and sort it out asap (esp. when it is to join an active debate).
 
Emperor said:
Eburacum45: It would be unwise to assume that there may not be the possibility of some kind of compositional or structural diffrences due to industrial processes we don't know about (or zero gravity processes that are difficult to replicate, etc.). Granted space metal may be indistinguishable from earth metal but any tests would be twofold:

1. To check the claims made that they don't appear to be of terrestrial manufacture.

2. To see if anything unusual does show up - you never know ;)

It is going to be more difficult than you might think. As I said before, isotope tests are unlikely to prove anything; you could find almost any combination of isotopes in a sample made from metal from multiple sources; and then the processing it has been subjected to might be difficult to identify.

For example, here is a supposed extraterrestrial artefact found in Russia;
http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/a1999/oct/figure2.jpg

it appears to be in reality a fragment of a tungsten light filament, but unless you can find the obscure factory in Russia or Poland or wherever that made the material in the first place, or samples of a similar material on Earth, an extraterrestrial origin can not be ruled out. There doesn't seem to be a museum dedicated to light bulb filaments anywhere (or is there?)

That is one likely result- no exact matches found- case not proven.
 
spillage wrote:
Does that mean they are colleagues of yours? I always get a bit suspicious when new posters appear on forums dedicated to the discussion about religious cults, expecially when they turn out to be advocating them. (Re- Horn and the Above Top Secret Forum newbies)
It will be interesting to see what these new members post.
As Emps, Rynner and Stu say...all new imput is appreciated. We will, however...suss out the propagandarists!

No, not colleagues, never even met them. One's in the USA and one's in Holland. No need to suss them and no need to keep being a splendidly supspicious skeptic spillage! :_old:

Emperor wrote:
Accounts are approved in batches but (this goes for everyone) if someone here drops one of us a note vouching for someone we can go and sort it out asap (esp. when it is to join an active debate).

Thanks, I just wrote to Allistair.
 
Eburacum45: Well yes it would be rare to have a perfect match as you'd need an enormous reference sample I'd suggest a result like that would show that there isn't anything peculiarily extra-terrestrial about it.

vogel7fire said:
Emperor wrote:
Accounts are approved in batches but (this goes for everyone) if someone here drops one of us a note vouching for someone we can go and sort it out asap (esp. when it is to join an active debate).

Thanks, I just wrote to Allistair.

You are better off contacting one of the moderators as all Al will probably do is send it to us to sort out next time he logs in (probably tomorrow).
 
vogel7fire said:
Emps, okay just shot you an e-mail :!:

OK thanks - to reiterate what I said in reply: They have to actually sign up before we can activate their accounts.
 
Emps,

I thought they had signed up -- TerraX and SkySpirit. In case they're not in the system by now, I just gave them another nudge.
 
My First Post

Greetings. This is SkySpirit, one of the two people mentioned by vogel7fire.

An Intro: I am an aerospace engineer, formerly with NASA, and thus my logic tends to flow in a scientific dimension. I know Linda and Michael from PAR (Plejaens_are_real) forum which she had already mentioned.

My Bias: My personal theory of evolution includes the possibility that the ET's were/are somehow involved in the process. I am interested in knowing who they were/are and what actually happened (or is happening).

WRT the meircase, I have read nearly all of their material as well as most of the arguments againt the case. I have come to a conclusion of sorts in some aspects of the story, while my mind is still open in other aspects.

Disclosure: I have come to this forum in part by a gentle urging from Linda. Therefore, you could consider her my "friend" in the forum.

I have no agenda whatsoever with this forum: I am open to an honest intellectual discussion on this case.
 
vogel7fire said:
I thought they had signed up -- TerraX and SkySpirit. In case they're not in the system by now, I just gave them another nudge.

Not under the details you gave me - seems SkySpirit got activated in the last batch anyway. ;)

------------
SkySpirit: Welcome. I suppose we'd be interested on your take on the whole affair esp. the stumbling block for most of us: the faked pictures and the attempts to wriggle of the hook that followed exposure of them.

Also, as a scientist (although you don't say what kind), what do you make of the tests on the metal?
 
Emperor, Thanks for your welcome.

My science background is in applied physics and electrical engineering: not a candidate for any metallurgical analyses.

I can start with my general take "on the whole affair," as you put it, and later get into some of the details you mention.

-----------

In my view, Meier has essentially created a new age religion.

His material, in thousands of pages, is basically a wholesale remake of the "Bible" from Genesis (how mankind came to Earth) to Revelation (the "ET prophecies"). He even created a new version of the New Testament, which he calls Talmud Jmmanuel.

He then takes the center seat, as the "Prophet."
And condemns other competing religions.

-----------

Is this all true? Well that's what we are debating here.

My perspective of Meir personality through psychological inference, a means of obtaining derivative knowledge, is that he is not to be trusted. In the language of his transcripts, Mr. Meier exhibits a pattern of a cult mentality which aligns with my inferred assessment of his psychological profile.

Does this mean he simply "lied" his way through? All, or partly?
Did he have any contact at all with the Pleidians/Plejarens?
Does he have any real metal samples?

Also, did he forge the photos?
Did he plagiarize the prophecies from others?

Well, let's talk about it as we go...
 
SkySpirit said:
In my view, Meier has essentially created a new age religion.

His material, in thousands of pages, is basically a wholesale remake of the "Bible" from Genesis (how mankind came to Earth) to Revelation (the "ET prophecies"). He even created a new version of the New Testament, which he calls Talmud Jmmanuel.

He then takes the center seat, as the "Prophet."
And condemns other competing religions.
I think several people here agree with you. In fact I suggested much the same back on page 7 of this thread!
http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewt ... 708#550708

But, sometimes, some religious prophets do have some small degree of psychic or paranormal powers, which of course they explain and exploit according to their belief system. Do you think this is the case with Meier, or is the whole thing made up, i.e. hoaxed?
 
The reluctant Messiah?

SkySpirit said:
In my view, Meier has essentially created a new age religion.

His material, in thousands of pages, is basically a wholesale remake of the "Bible" from Genesis (how mankind came to Earth) to Revelation (the "ET prophecies"). He even created a new version of the New Testament, which he calls Talmud Jmmanuel.

He then takes the center seat, as the "Prophet."
And condemns other competing religions.

Thanks for that it has been a conclusion that has emerged here too (as rynner has said).

One thing I was wondering was; Is Billy Meier actively promoting the cult-like/religious aspects or has this emerged through the work of disciples? For example he doesn't seem to have done a vast amount of promotion of his own material (despite the fact that he has a tonne of stuff and could make a pretty penny out of it) but other people have stepped into the breech. There is a long history of people having unusual encounters (or even making things up) which has been jumped on and promoted by people (often members of the clergy) to further their own ends making them reluctant prophets.
 
I think Billy is a "Sleeping partner" in all this. He ultimately hatched the plan, (whether or not it was simple conmanship or psychological in nature is another story!)...and as his following grew, they reaped the wheat and made him his bread. It often works like that. He keeps a humble profile whilst his "unconnected" deciples spread the word, coherse the gullible in the street, on the net at meetings etc... It's happening here and now as we speak and on this forum. Simply by keeping this alive, it is leaving avenues open for those who would believe to see and be cohersed into maybe joining, if not also spreading and perpetuating the cult.
The Hornesque reasonings didn't work on this thread, *Or any other to that*...but what of the silent watchers? How do we know that they weren't effected enough to make enquiries and receive propagandarist fodder? Perhaps they did, and are still doing so as a result of this and similar forums. They seem to be exploiting threads like these. Simply type in "Meier" into a search engine and join the relevent forums...Bob's your uncle. If you are received with too much scepticism (common sense), then get your colleagues to join using different tactics such as reverse psychology, subtle cohersive techniques and so on...Easier still, join again under a different name and change tactics. Keep the subject alive so more people are aware of it. Lessen the chances of aggressive challenge by appearing to be impartial, although verging on the "Fors".
Common tactics for the recruitment agencies involved whether they be official or doing it for themselves.
Beware, (I don't think it really needs saying to familiar posters, I'm just letting the Meiereists know)...sudden newbies who tend not to post elsewhere and show idiosynchratic typing natures. (We can tell you know!) ;)
I'm definately not accusing anyone specifically, so don't worry and please enjoy the debate/thread.
Let's get some real answers.
Good luck all.
 
Hello SkySpirit

I can give you my opinion on each of your questions - to get the ball rolling.
I have obviously not seen all of Meiers evidence, but have seen enough to satisfy myself that further delving is very unlikely to reveal anything to sway me.
Can I ask what leads you to persist with interest in Meier even though you have seen through the cultish and false nature of his claims?

Does this mean he simply "lied" his way through? All, or partly?
His story has inconsistencies caused by false and contradictory information. This would be consistent with lies.

Did he have any contact at all with the Pleidians/Plejarens?
It would seem that they were only real Pleidians until advances in astronomical observation threw doubt on this as a plausible home, and a maguffin had to be employed to allow for this.
Their only purpose in meeting him seems to be to reinforce his every whim, and it seems illogical to expend fuel, resources and time to this end.

Does he have any real metal samples?
One account gives Vogel's and Billy's samples fading away leaving them with no hard 'proof'. He also claims that the Plajarens have removed all traces of their visits.
I believe this is another bit of trickery - he knows that any test results will be negative or non conclusive - therefore he has taken steps to distance himself from them. Indeed he can say I told you so.

Also, did he forge the photos?
Without doubt some photographs are fakes. You either accept that they are fake or his story that it is the result of tampering by others / disguising by the Plajarens. I cannot see a third choice.
Those pictures which are non conclusive must surely be tainted beyond reasonable doubt.

Did he plagiarize the prophecies from others?
He refutes claims of plagurism with responses which stagger in number of contortions employed to explain the similarities. He certainly is guilty of copying, but the extent may not be truly known.
 
Hmm..

Just been trying to check out Vogels credibility. Seems his patents are more than a little hard to track down. My guess is he didnt have many or even any.
Has anyone found direct reference to any of them or are people getting confused with trademarks?

Also seems he was as not as well regarded a scientist as is often quoted.
 
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