Billy Meier

[Anonymous]

Hi All,

At the request of Vogel7fire I joined this forum after some consideration. I've known Vogel7fire for a number of years through e-mail correspondence and I've come to view her as a trustworthy-trying to do her best kind of individual.Nonetheless, I wondered about her request since I don't have much 'affection' for the Meier case.You'll find that my position on the Meier case is somewhat inbetween.I can acknowledge that
some extraordinary things happend which in turn point to extraterrestrial contact, on the other hand some aspects seem outright false.Hopefully you'll understand when I get more into detail.

Regards,
TerraX

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

Hmm..

Just been trying to check out Vogels credibility. Seems his patents are more than a little hard to track down. My guess is he didnt have many or even any.
Has anyone found direct reference to any of them or are people getting confused with trademarks?

One of the articles I think I link to above (either a randi one or the IIG site) looks into his patents - you can search the patent offices records online and they only found 1 patent in his name. Also, as all you need is a reasonable claim and some money, number of patents is possibly an even less useful measure than IQ

I can acknowledge that some extraordinary things happend which in turn point to extraterrestrial contact, on the other hand some aspects seem outright false.Hopefully you'll understand when I get more into detail.

I certianly look forward to more details on these "extraordinary things."

 

[AMPHIARAUS]

you can search the patent offices records online and they only found 1 patent in his name. Also, as all you need is a reasonable claim and some money, number of patents is possibly an even less useful measure than IQ

Yeah been down the patent route myself and your spot on - it means nothing in regards to intelligence, methodolgy or even common sense, its just paperwork.
My checks for Vogels patents had bugger all results as well, but then not all records are searchable on-line to be fair. Certainly shows the lie that he had [insert random number from 32 to 100] patents in his name.

There are loads of people cashing in on his name since his death, but he was certainly a 'crystal' devotee in his last years.


I just wanted to see how credible he was in earlier in life, if indeed he ever was. It doesnt look like it though, unless the new posters can come up with a new angle.

 

[vogel7fire]

Amphiaraus wrote:

I just wanted to see how credible he was in earlier in life, if indeed he ever was. It doesnt look like it though, unless the new posters can come up with a new angle.

I don't know about the others, but my best suggestion is to write Rumi Da directly, ask him or ask him to direct you to the information. He's open to answering any questions he can: [email protected].

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

Amphiaraus wrote:

I just wanted to see how credible he was in earlier in life, if indeed he ever was. It doesnt look like it though, unless the new posters can come up with a new angle.

I don't know about the others, but my best suggestion is to write Rumi Da directly, ask him or ask him to direct you to the information. He's open to answering any questions he can: [email protected].

I think the domain should be crystals and not crustals:

www.vogelcrystals.net

There is even a little picture of Marcel Vogel on the front page.

 

[Anonymous]

Babyin the BathWater

So, where is the baby then?

Yet, I was not willing to throw the baby (if there were) away with the bathwater. The only potential "baby" left were the Pleiadians/Plejarens. Another words, I am open to the possibility that there had been some kind of contact (at least initially), for I have not yet found a reason to dismiss this possibility entirely.

It is this question that kept me on the case thus far.

I think several people here agree with you. In fact I suggested much the same back on page 7 of this thread! ... But, sometimes, some religious prophets do have some small degree of psychic or paranormal powers, which of course they explain and exploit according to their belief system. Do you think this is the case with Meier, or is the whole thing made up, i.e. hoaxed?

Indeed, rynner and Emperor, both of you (plus few others) seemed to have come to similar conclusions about the cult. Meier claims to have a telepathic ability to link with the Plejarens. I have not dismissed this either. I theorize (not with great confidence) that he was able to contact the Plejarens with this ability, and became corrupt along the way.

One thing I was wondering was; Is Billy Meier actively promoting the cult-like/religious aspects or has this emerged through the work of disciples? For example he doesn't seem to have done a vast amount of promotion of his own material (despite the fact that he has a tonne of stuff and could make a pretty penny out of it) but other people have stepped into the breech. There is a long history of people having unusual encounters (or even making things up) which has been jumped on and promoted by people (often members of the clergy) to further their own ends making them reluctant prophets.

The Reluctant Messiah Syndrome (RMS), i think is a part of what i call "cult mentality." This approach is repeated in most all cults IMO. Yes, Emperor, I agree this is case here as well.

And why are these people drawn to a cult involving ET's? Why not God's angels? The reason is simple. Outer space is a concept of the unknown that is inextricably linked to, but beyond the reach of, 20th century's dominant epistomology -- science. When Christianity held sway, it was ghosts, witches, fairies, angels, devils, etc.

Can I ask what leads you to persist with interest in Meier even though you have seen through the cultish and false nature of his claims?

At first, I dropped the whole case for the reasons already discussed in the forum. But, i found the story gripping enough that i wanted to give it a fair try and read through the whole thing. My interest/focus has always been on the Plejarens, not on Meier.

----------

The photos were initial cause of suspicion for me as well. Once exposed of the fraud, the coverup spin states that some ET called, Baawis, collaborating with the Plejarens mentally transmitted all the details of the photograph to a painter. I consider this "spin doctoring" not only unlikely, but a blatant insults to reader's intelligence. Then again, most cult followers are not known for their intellect.

Then there are the "prophecies." This is where Meier really screwed up IMO.

---------

Today is 4th of July, and my 4-yo son is not leaving me alone. I have to go out to a park now. To be continued...

-

 

[Anonymous]

It's the 21st Century. Also that should have been "..readers' intelligence."
That aside...And I do appreciate you were referring to the formation of Meier's cult and not its ongoing slaughter...ever since the liberation of science, (Since post Victorian times)...spiritualism was born to fill the gap between science and blind faith. A seemingly scientific aproach to the "nether realm". All of this is indeed worthy of a multinational coorporation advertisement for something tempting but nonetheless damaging and crap. Anything with a hint of religion or financial bias should be regarded with extreme caution. It is anti-science in the purest sense...therefore advocees/advocators/adveocatees...(Apologies, I have downed 12 double vodkas!) of any syndicates giving opinions can be counted against the argument...*IMO*
Oh aren't I a bloody stubborn git? l0l! I mean no offense...it's just the way I am. I tend to represent the catylist for the either sides.
Cheers,
Spill.

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

Re: Babyin the BathWater

Yes...... well back to the debate:

So, where is the baby then?

Yet, I was not willing to throw the baby (if there were) away with the bathwater. The only potential "baby" left were the Pleiadians/Plejarens. Another words, I am open to the possibility that there had been some kind of contact (at least initially), for I have not yet found a reason to dismiss this possibility entirely.

Yes ultimately it is all about shifting odds than black and white absolutes. However, do you have any reason to suspect there is a grain of truth embedded in a large pearl of fakery, hyperbole, wriggling, etc.? If there is a bay in that bathwater it is a very, very tiny one and one would ask why if he had real contacts did he bury it in a mountain of lies?

I threw out a hypothetical idea earlier that he may have felt pressurised to deliver better evidence but ultimately there is really little reason that I can think of for believing anything. Of course, there is still the tiny chance he has had some contact with aliens but.....

Do you know of anything else that might actually support the idea that he had some kind of contact?

 

[vogel7fire]

Emperor wrote:

Do you know of anything else that might actually support the idea that he had some kind of contact?

Well, one thing that hasn't really been addressed here are the witnesses. While the reliability and credibilty of witnesses is always an issue, there are nonethess a number of people who claim to have seen the ships or are purported to have some relevant connection to Billy Meier:
http://www.tjresearch.info/witness.htm

http://www.tjresearch.info/witnessa.htm

 

[Graylien]

Well, that's convincing. There's a chef who claims he saw Meier drive a tractor "purely with his spiritual powers", another witness who had a passing glimpse of "a tall person wearing a cloak and a shimmering space suit" and someone who claims to have seen the notorious fir tree elimination incident.

 

[vogel7fire]

graylien wrote:

Well, that's convincing. There's a chef who claims he saw Meier drive a tractor "purely with his spiritual powers", another witness who had a passing glimpse of "a tall person wearing a cloak and a shimmering space suit" and someone who claims to have seen the notorious fir tree elimination incident.

Okay, that's three out of several witnesses. Anyone else seem convincing?

 

[stu neville]

.. another witness who had a passing glimpse of "a tall person wearing a cloak and a shimmering space suit" ...

The same witness, the splendidly-monikered Engelbert Wachter (can't find the umlaut), also had this stunning experience:

I have experienced quite a few emotional moments. Once I was building the chicken coop when I observed Billy as he was walking away from the Center on the field path. I figured he was going to a contact. Shortly afterwards I heard a loud, dynamic whirring sound and thought: They must have just beamed him up now. About half an hour later I felt compelled to look toward a meadow for a short while and suddenly, without warning, Billy stood there as though someone had pulled away a curtain that had kept him hidden from my eyes—he simply was there!

So.. he didn't even glance up to get a glimpse of the source of the "dynamic whirring"? No, apparently not. he was content to watch Meier walk out into a field, and then look over half an hour later (he was compelled, you know) and there was Meier! Amazing.

Louis Memper, a chemist, had this intriguing encounter:

One night I almost ran into an extraterrestrial. Suddenly I felt a type of vibrating wave, which seemed to bid me to step back. I sensed the wave becoming stronger the closer I got there. That was very impressive and I reflected for a long time what this could have been. Finally I asked Billy. He explained to me that this was an invisible protective shield of a female extraterrestrial visitor. These protective shields are necessary for them because they cannot tolerate our vibrations, which are so different from their own.

You see, they can be invisible too! A cynic may say that's a tad convenient.. waves in the air are nothing special, BTW - there's a water tower near my home, with a near-silent pump which gives you a papable vibrating sensation within about 50 yards.

Are there any pics of these giant shoe-prints in the cement BTW? Preferably with something to show the scale.

 

[vogel7fire]

stu neville wrote:

These protective shields are necessary for them because they cannot tolerate our vibrations, which are so different from their own.
You see, they can be invisible too! A cynic may say that's a tad convenient..

Well, let me remind you, I had an experience with a being who materialized and then dematerialized. "Allegedly," btw these beings cannot withstand the earthhuman vibration, because it literally makes them sick. I can "believe" that.

Emperor wrote: (italics mine)

If there is a baby in that bathwater it is a very, very tiny one and one would ask why if he had real contacts did he bury it in a mountain of lies?

Exactly, why?! I really don't understand it, either. Professor Deardorff explains it away as "plausible deniability," saying, as I understand it, that the Plejarens right from the start said that they would deliberately offer "proof but no proof," create doubt, and create controversy. Their "agenda" was to make Billy Meier a questionable contactee. Perhaps TerraX can explain this better. But it does seem to be a "deliberate confusion tactic" and I agree that this agenda is difficult to understand!

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

The witness are interesting - as has been pinted out some of them haven't actually witnessed anything. I'd also be concerned that once you start dealing with cult-like activity that the testimon of those insdie the cult are dubious and I'd certainly want more info about the people and their connections to Meier or it is becomes difficult to assess what people say. However, with that in mind we can still look at the reports to see if they tell us anything. Here is the first one from the second link:

Now it was 23:50. My friend [Meier] and I drove my Volkswagen to a point near the contact place, which was situated in upper Zurich, above Bäretswil near Bettswil, not far from the Sunamatteli children's home. At my friend's signal I stopped the car. He stepped out and explained to me, as is always the case, that he is not allowed to take any other person to the actual place of contact with the extraterrestrials. He left me [going] toward the northeast direction, where I could see, at about 200 meters distance, a wooded hill in the shadows of the night.

The night was rather cold, which did not make the waiting pleasant as I stood outside and observed the near and far environment. Time passed and it became 00:40 when I suddenly noticed, in a northerly direction, above the fir tops, an orange-colored light which was stationary, and appeared from nowhere. My first thought was that this could be a house where a light was simply turned on. Then this seemed strange to me, because above the tops of the firs in the middle of the forest there could be no house. This moved me to observe the light still more closely. Still, it was just stationary and silent. But then it began, hardly noticeable at first, to move and slowly to wander over the fir tops. Then it began to move faster and climbed up higher.

There were other lights reported too and short firework-like display.

So he drives Meier out into the woods, he isn't allowed to go with him, Meier disappears into the woods and then mystey lights appear. Now if that were me I'd just suspect someone was yanking my chain.

The second one on that page follows a very similar pattern.

I'm also intrigued by the mention of these phonecalls to tell him things are ready.

Oddly the things this reminds me most of is an episode of Charlies Angels where a group of conmen use UFOs to con people (it seems to be Season 2 episode 9: "Unidentified Flying Angel").

Time and again he takes people out to a point in the countryside, wanders off and a light show ensues. In some of those accounts it also seems possible he has accomplices running arund in the woods too.

Emperor wrote: (italics mine)

If there is a baby in that bathwater it is a very, very tiny one and one would ask why if he had real contacts did he bury it in a mountain of lies?

Exactly, why?! I really don't understand it, either. Professor Deardorff explains it away as "plausible deniability," saying, as I understand it, that the Plejarens right from the start said that they would deliberately offer "proof but no proof," create doubt, and create controversy. Their "agenda" was to make Billy Meier a questionable contactee. Perhaps TerraX can explain this better. But it does seem to be a "deliberate confusion tactic" and I agree that this agenda is difficult to understand!

That raises another question: Why would they bother? Are they a bunch of intergalactic Jeremy Beadles? Its not like they have revealed themselves to a person who's testimony would hold considerable weight (what if it had been Nelson Mandela for example?) so why would they bother?

To most people that whole thing just sounds like wriggling on the hook.

 

[AMPHIARAUS]

What concerned me the most about those witness reports is that on at least one occasion they were armed while travelling because they feared the 'Giza Intelligence' and were warned to protect themselves
(should this be reported to the authorities?)

I wonder if some unfortunate passer-by ever got shot and buried because Billy managed to brainwash his driver a bit too well.

 

[Anonymous]

Eyewitness testimonies could be a factor which points to unusual things going on and the Meier case, as listed above, has plenty of those.Another witness that Michael Horn pointed out was a woman named Phobol who also claimed to have witnessed an ET in the presence of Meier.
His son, Methusalem if I'm not mistaken also openly supports some of his fathers claims and recalls seeing a ship amongst other things.However Meier's ex-wife Kalliope, who spoke with investigators made a rather damaging statement by saying that her former husband faked much of the material.Meier supporters recanted by saying that it was an act of revenge following the divorce.
Another negative 'eyewitness' was Hans(?) Schutzbach who at one time belonged to Meier's innercircle however that changed dramaticly.Meier promised that Schutzbach could witness the ships that he photographed for himself but at the pre-arranged site Schutzbach saw nothing.The following day Meier showed Schutzbach a picture of him and a ship in the background which the latter had not seen.Schutzbach was outraged.Later on a lawsuit even transpired and Schutzbach filed charges claiming that he had to do Meier's meditation practice, naked under a copper pyramid in the cellar of his house.How the lawsuit ended is not known to me.

So, in the Meier case we have people who claim to have witnessed things which in turn corroberate some of his claims.Wendelle Stevens also belongs to this group along with other photographers.
Yet on the other hand we have witnesses that leave a negative mark on the case.Naturally the next step would be to assess how reliable those witnesses are.
Of course you can argue that persons belonging to Meier's organisation aren't reliable since can they can be under the 'influence', the more skepticly inclined would say they belong to Meier's cult and therefore aren't reliable witnesses.That doesn't change the fact that there are also witnesses who don't belong to Meier's group although I'm not sure about the ratio.
I think each person should determine for him/herself what a reliable witness would be and see if the Meier case has such witnesses and how many.It also becomes a question how a person views eyewitness testimonies to begin with.I've had quite a few discussions with people about the value of eyewitnesses in ufology and my observation is that some give it no value whatsoever which in my opinion is rather crooked.
It's important to be clear about that before proceeding any further, otherwise it's just a waste of time and energy.

Regards,
TerraX

 

[WhistlingJack]

What concerned me the most about those witness reports is that on at least one occasion they were armed while travelling because they feared the 'Giza Intelligence' and were warned to protect themselves
(should this be reported to the authorities?)

I wonder if some unfortunate passer-by ever got shot and buried because Billy managed to brainwash his driver a bit too well.

I think all Swiss adult males are required by law to keep a firearm, so presumably the authorities would be nonplussed - well, apart from the murder bit, obviously...

 

[Yithian]

From the following site. Military of Switzerland

...Famously, members of the armed forces keep their rifles and uniforms in their house for immediate mobilization. Swiss military doctrines are arranged in peculiar ways to make this organization effective. The people are advised to keep the ammunition and the rifle in separate places, both out of reach of unauthorized people. No statistics are published on the abuse of military rifles, but because unregistered firearms are easily available in Switzerland, only an insignificant percentage of gun crimes involves army rifles...

 

[vogel7fire]

I think the Swiss Air Force would be a credible witness:

Evidence exists which demonstrates that the Swiss Air Force could very well know about the authenticity of Meier's contacts. As we reported in the May 1998 edition of MAGAZIN 2000plus No.127, an official of the Swiss Military Airspace Safety Monitoring Unit informed Swiss ufologist Luc Bürgin and the MUFON-CES research group about recorded data pertaining to radar sightings of unknown flying objects in the Swiss air space. According to their information, 236 UFO radar sightings took place in the airspace above the land of the Swiss confederates between the 25-month period from April 1, 1993 to April 31, 1995. Particularly noteworthy were the clusters of UFO radar positions above the Zurich highlands—precisely in the area where Billy Meier has his contacts.

My favorite photo in Stevens' UFO . . . Contact from the Pleiades, Vol I is the one showing a Swiss military jet in pursuit of one of the beamships. The pilot later confirmed that event.

 

[Graylien]

Evidence exists which demonstrates that the Swiss Air Force could very well know about the authenticity of Meier's contacts.

Does it? Ignoring, for the time being, the lack of both names (An official? Which official?) and specific details, the existence of "UFO radar sightings" is hardly proof of "the authenticity of Meier's contacts". The history of the UFO phenomenon from the late 1940's onwards is littered with unidentified radar sightings recorded by both military and civilian radar operators throughout the whole of Europe and America. You might as well claim that the radar 'blips' logged by the US Airforce in the 1950's prove the authenticity of George Adamski's Venusians, or that radar 'blips' reported by British radar operators prove that I myself am in contact with Space Weazels.

And, incidentally, what on Earth is this about?

AIDS: The origin of the AIDS epidemic has been traced to Uganda in Africa, from where the disease spread to Haiti. From there it was transmitted to the entire world by degenerate homosexuals practicing sodomy with long-tailed monkeys, which naturally carry the AIDS virus without any harm

From: http://www.figu.org/us/figu/billy_meier/interview.htm

 

[vogel7fire]

In reply to Graylien:

I was referring to The Swiss Air Force and Meier section of the witness testimony at http://www.tjresearch.info/witness.htm where UFO Researcher Erwin Murner from Zurich testifies:

Billy gave me several of his photos. The picture that impressed me the most was of a UFO and an Air Force Mirage fighter plane. I made serious efforts to uncover the truth about it. Then the following occurred: A UFO convention was being held at the Zurich Novotel, where I met a man who was with the Air Force. We entered into a conversation, and when he told me he was with the Air Force, I asked him about the photo. He confirmed the photo was authentic and that they knew everything about the contacts. I met with the man several more times, during which he said he was part of the Army’s Special Services. At our next meeting he carried a black briefcase, from which he removed a portfolio, a dossier, which he allowed me to read . . . and on page 3 was the story about the Mirage! In brief, the article stated that those who have knowledge about this case must keep it a secret for the rest of their lives. Thereupon I asked my acquaintance what he thought of Billy Meier, and he told me the military knew that everything was true but the people aren't allowed to know about it."

Later Mürner was even able to glean the name of the Mirage pilot, and he contacted him. The Air Force officer confirmed the incident without revealing any details.

Erwin Murner provides evidentiary weight, it seems, by offering:

1) witness testimony authenticating the photograph of the UFO and the Mirage Fighter craft
2) witness testimony identifying the Mirage pilot

As for this part:

And, incidentally, what on Earth is this about?
Quote:

AIDS: The origin of the AIDS epidemic has been traced to Uganda in Africa, from where the disease spread to Haiti. From there it was transmitted to the entire world by degenerate homosexuals practicing sodomy with long-tailed monkeys, which naturally carry the AIDS virus without any harm



From: http://www.figu.org/us/figu/billy_meier/interview.htm

I was shocked and horrified by this language and subsequently participated in a heated debate about this some years ago. Ultimately I confronted Billy about it under the "Questions for Billy" section of the FIGU forum. If I recall correctly, Meier's position then and now is that homosexuality is, by nature, "naturally unnatural" and he condoned it.
("Naturally unnatural," you say? )

 

[stu neville]

If I recall correctly, Meier's position then and now is that homosexuality is, by nature, "naturally unnatural" and he condoned it.

"Condemned", surely?

 

[vogel7fire]

Stu, I mean "condoned."

 

[stu neville]

Oh I see - in the sense that though he regards it as wrong he accepts that it takes place?

 

[Anonymous]

Er.....It was always my understanding that AIDS isn't something you catch, it's a syndrome you build up chronically once your system has been corrupted with HIV+ and various other immunity crippling illnesses/activities.
You can't catch AIDS, you can however contract HIV.
Dunno if I'm correct there but I do know that the whole long tailed monkey/homosexual bestiality thing is a pile of horse droppings.
What say you?
Take a look at this....
http://www.avert.org/origins.htm

The 'Hunter' Theory
The most commonly accepted theory is that of the 'hunter'. In this scenario, SIVcpz was transferred to humans as a result of chimps being killed and eaten or their blood getting into cuts or wounds on the hunter. Normally the hunter's body would have fought off SIV, but on a few occasions it adapted itself within its new human host and become HIV-1. The fact that there were several different early strains of HIV, each with a slightly different genetic make-up (the most common of which was HIV-1 group M), would support this theory: every time it passed from a chimpanzee to a man, it would have developed in a slightly different way within his body, and thus produced a slightly different strain.

An article published in The Lancet in 20043, also shows how retroviral transfer from primates to hunters is still occurring even today. In a sample of 1099 individuals in Cameroon , they discovered to ten (1%) were infected with SFV (Simian Foamy Virus), an illness which, like SIV, was previously thought only to infect primates. All these infections were believed to have been acquired through the butchering and consumption of monkey and ape meat. Discoveries such as this have lead to calls for an outright ban on bushmeat hunting to prevent simian viruses being passed to humans.

 

[TheQuixote]

Er.....It was always my understanding that AIDS isn't something you catch, it's a syndrome you build up chronically once your system has been corrupted with HIV+ and various other immunity crippling illnesses/activities.
You can't catch AIDS, you can however contract HIV.
Dunno if I'm correct there but I do know that the whole long tailed monkey/homosexual bestiality thing is a pile of horse droppings.
What say you?
Take a look at this....
http://www.avert.org/origins.htm

Yes, that would be right.

IIRC AIDS is diagnosed when a person with HIV has gone through three periods of major illness such as pneumonia etc..

Jeez... so if Meier is the mouth for these Pleiades aliens, they aren't that full of love and peace and as intelligent as they quite make out then? They also seem to be reading the wrong medical journals.

 

[AMPHIARAUS]

vogel7fire quote from Erwin Murner:
where I met a man who was with the Air Force. We entered into a conversation, and when he told me he was with the Air Force, I asked him about the photo. He confirmed the photo was authentic and that they knew everything about the contacts. I met with the man several more times, during which he said he was part of the Army’s Special Services. At our next meeting he carried a black briefcase, from which he removed a portfolio, a dossier, which he allowed me to read . . . and on page 3 was the story about the Mirage! In brief, the article stated that those who have knowledge about this case must keep it a secret for the rest of their lives.
Bold my emphasis

So he is in the army and the air force, and he even though he is a member of the special services he 'borrows' sensitive documents and just shows then to people.

And this is convincing how? you have no problems with this - no alarm bells ringing at all?

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

In reply to Graylien:

I was referring to The Swiss Air Force and Meier section of the witness testimony at http://www.tjresearch.info/witness.htm where UFO Researcher Erwin Murner from Zurich testifies:

Billy gave me several of his photos. The picture that impressed me the most was of a UFO and an Air Force Mirage fighter plane. I made serious efforts to uncover the truth about it. Then the following occurred: A UFO convention was being held at the Zurich Novotel, where I met a man who was with the Air Force. We entered into a conversation, and when he told me he was with the Air Force, I asked him about the photo. He confirmed the photo was authentic and that they knew everything about the contacts. I met with the man several more times, during which he said he was part of the Army’s Special Services. At our next meeting he carried a black briefcase, from which he removed a portfolio, a dossier, which he allowed me to read . . . and on page 3 was the story about the Mirage! In brief, the article stated that those who have knowledge about this case must keep it a secret for the rest of their lives. Thereupon I asked my acquaintance what he thought of Billy Meier, and he told me the military knew that everything was true but the people aren't allowed to know about it."

Later Mürner was even able to glean the name of the Mirage pilot, and he contacted him. The Air Force officer confirmed the incident without revealing any details.

Erwin Murner provides evidentiary weight, it seems, by offering:

1) witness testimony authenticating the photograph of the UFO and the Mirage Fighter craft
2) witness testimony identifying the Mirage pilot

Ufology is full of such accounts - what is the evidence beyond people's word for this?

Copies of that report?
Confirmation that the people he spoke to exist and that they were actually the one's he spoke to?

 

[AMPHIARAUS]

At the suggestion of others I have contacted a few of Marcel Vogels past associates in order to shed light on the 'missing' patents and to try to get the measure of him in his professional capacity. Sadly nothing new was uncovered, except anecdotes relating to his feelings about Meier.

A search of ALL US patents is totally negative. He is only credited as an inventor or co-inventor on one patent.
This is not due to IBM or others 'taking' credit for the patents as IBM are assigned all rights to designs invented by their employees, and all IBM patents credit the inventor(s) fully.

Intrestingly a Siegfried Vogel is also co-credited on the Marcel vogel patent. I am assuming Siegfried is a relative.

Siegfried then went on to a further patents (or possibly two) without Marcel.

So unless Siegfried or anyone else can provide some evidence to the contrary the inference of Marcels skills by reference to his many patents is totally bogus, and his reported analysis of the metal sample is tainted by this.

Marcels US Patent # 4,134,066

Siegfrieds US Patents # 4,134,066 + 4,532,802

Also seems Marcel didn't have a very good opinion of Billy - but that is just hearsay now.

 

[vogel7fire]

Amphiaraus wrote:

At the suggestion of others I have contacted a few of Marcel Vogels past associates in order to shed light on the 'missing' patents and to try to get the measure of him in his professional capacity

Good for you for digging in!

Amphiaraus wrote:

Also seems Marcel didn't have a very good opinion of Billy - but that is just hearsay now.

Marcel and I didn't talk about Billy much as I recall. I would nonetheless be very interested in the "hearsay" if you are willing to provide it.