hokum6 said:
Everything we have - news reports, photos, video, government statements - says Bin Laden was alive until killed in Pakistan.
News reports ? But they are merely repeating what official sources said. When journalists really investigated and found interesting stories, they were dropped.
The video of the old man watching TV ? This man could be OBL, but why didn't they provide a video of him completely and unambiguously visible ? And his neighbours disputed that it was him.
And about government statements, they have a general lack of credibility, as they have produced a number of conflicting versions, with no apparent reason. And the motive for the diposal of the body doesn't stand up to scrutiny, and has been dismissed by various Muslim authorities.
The rest of the evidence similarly doesn't tally.
If visual witnesses confirmed the presence of gunshots and of an helicopter, their accounts contradicted the official version (notably about the possibility that a body was retrieved). The three so-called OBL's relatives gave three completely different accounts. And we don't know what they've become ; wouldn't it be interesting for a journalist to try to interview them ?
Similarly, OBL's mansion has been described as devoid of any radio, phone or electronic connection with the world, but then there was a TV, a phone etc...
ted_bloody_maul said:
So what do you count as real evidence?
Body, and clear, uncontrovertible pictures. Like those from the tiny cameras worn by the Navy Seals commandos who took part in the operation.
Ah, but last news are that these cameras never existed after all. Despite CBS News national security correspondent David Martin had cited details that had been alledegly retrieved from the examination of their recordings :
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/05/ ... bsCarousel
Their existence had been admitted by the media and the public, with an implicit admission from the authorities. But now, again, a wide part of the official story has changed.
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2011/08/17-1
« The SEALs were not wearing helmet cams, contrary to a widely cited report by CBS »
ted_bloody_maul said:
I don't think it's definitive proof. I don't know anyone who does. I do believe, however, that's it's more likely that they would make the most of a propaganda gift which would be more potent than anything they've come up with themselves so far. If they did provide proof I'd probably be promoting your argument about a fictionalised war on terror and the events of 9/11. But they haven't and so I'm not.
Jerry_B said:
So someone has to explain the efficacy of Al Q not claiming that OBL had died earlier, when the news that the US were saying that they had killed him was released in May.
I had given reasons that I personnally found convincing for that. I will just briefly sum them up here.
That somebody has information that would be heavily detrimental for their ennemies, and doesn't try to use it for their benefit, is it absurd ? Your opinion relies on this presupposition, but there are many historical precedents for that - we had already covered this part. The reason is that the revelation of a shared secret is detrimental to both sides.
I can imagine that an Al Qaida leader, as an idealized version of a fanatical Muslim drawn by his nihilistic dream of martyrdom for Allah the Almighty, would try to reveal that OBL had been dead for many years. But I can also foresee the consequences for his fight. Loss of credibility among potential recruits, loss of leadership, loss of trust from fighters in their leaders... Their already decaying army would be reduced to an even smaller core of the most fanatical, which wouldn't last long.
And I don't give much importance to the arguments that jihadists are motivated only by a pure irrational ideal of martyrdom. They're human beings, and like with all human beings, prospect of victory, trust in their leaders or fashion play an important role. A decade ago, jihadists could find many more recruits. Now that they are losing everywhere, that promises from AQ leaders haven't come to fruition, their numbers have drastically dwindled. Seems that the prospect of becoming a martyr for the cause of Allah is not so appealing by itself after all.
AQ leaders, if they are still alive at all, understand that. So, unless they want to scuttle what is left of their army, they
probably wouldn't reveal that OBL had been dead for years.
For those who know this movie, I have recently re-watched
Farenheit 451. The scene of 'Montag's' execution, towards the end, made me uneasy. Because I have no reason to believe that we are not facing a similar situation.