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Black Dogs

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Anonymous

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It's occured to me with all this discussion of urban myths and folklore that it appears no one has raised the subject of ghostly black dogs.
Personally I find the idea that one ghost coud appear in so many areas and have so many common features. So what are peoples thoughts?
(Nice little link to a site about them: Apparitions of black dogs )
 
I'm not being critical Grigori, but try to search using 'black dog' or 'black shuck' and you'll find plenty of posts.
 
While we're on the subject, my colleague at work was telling me about his friends (LOOK this isn't a foaf, he's known these people for years, and I work with him every day)
who live in the forest of dean, and they had an ABC in their back garden.

I started jabbering on about how ABCs could be the modern version of the black dog. Of course I got the usual strange looks. But what do you think? How many of these weird 'cats' are actually otherworldly 'dogs'? Or do you think the phenomena are completely unconnected?

(so that's how I'm justifying this being in 'urban legends' not 'cryptozoology'!)
 
Indeed. To the untrained eye on a darkened path would a huge beastly cat not be confusable with a huge beastly dog? And in the heyday of black dog sightings very few rural folk would be familiar with black panthers.

Time to dust off one of my favourite threads methinks...

Historical ABCs
 
There's an earlier, longer BLACK DOGS thread which nevertheless petered out in 2005.
http://forum.forteantimes.com/index.php?threads/black-dogs.16163/

But nowhere on the MB can I find a mention that ACD's Hound of the Baskervilles had its origin in Wales...

Powys hotel's Sherlock Holmes Hound of the Baskervilles link
By Carl Yapp BBC Wales News
22 January 2012

It is a mystery even Sherlock Holmes might have had a problem solving.
Who and what inspired Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's The Hound of the Baskervilles?

With Holmes enjoying a resurgence thanks to the BBC Wales-produced primetime TV drama Sherlock, and director Guy Ritchie releasing the second cinema adaptation, interest in the sleuth is soaring.
The origin of one of his most famous cases is disputed, with disagreements about how the novel came about.
But the owner of a hotel in Clyro, near Hay-on-Wye, Powys, claims his 19th Century property was the inspiration for Scottish author Conan Doyle's fictional Baskerville Hall.

David Hodby, who has owned Grade II-star listed Baskerville Hall Hotel since 1984, tells an interesting tale.
There is evidence that Conan Doyle might have known the Baskervilles.
The author's signature appears along with that of an R H Baskerville, believed to be Ralph Hopton Baskerville who inherited the family estate in 1905, on a document held by Powys council's archives department.
The paperwork is apparently in connection with the sale of two farms to R H Baskerville in the old county of Radnorshire in 1907.

Formerly known as Clyro Court, Mr Hodby's property was the family seat of the Baskervilles from 1839 until 1945, when it was sold to the local council and converted into a school.
Mr Hodby claims Conan Doyle was a friend of the Baskerville family, and was a regular visitor to their home.

The Hound of the Baskervilles is probably the most famous of Conan Doyle's stories about his sleuth, and is mainly set on Dartmoor, Devon.
In the story, the old and noble Baskerville family is threatened by the curse of a large black beast who terrorises and kills any family member who comes to live on the Baskerville estate.
But the story behind the detective's most famous case is almost as shrouded in fog as the tale itself, with some claiming that the fictional Baskerville Hall and legends of killer hounds come from Dartmoor and Devon.

Mr Hodby said Conan Doyle's story was based on the hounds of Black Vaughan which, as local legend has it, roamed the moors of nearby Hergest Ridge.
"Arthur Conan Doyle was a family friend who often came to stay here," Mr Hodby said.
"During his many visits he learned of the local legend, the Hounds of Black Vaughan, on nearby Hergest Ridge.
"The hounds were owned by the Vaughan family who ran an estate and the dogs were often set on walkers, some of whom died running from the dogs.
"That's how the legend started and Conan Doyle would have known this."

Mr Hodby added: "However, at the request of the Baskervilles he (Conan Doyle) set his famous novel in Devon to ward off tourists."
Mr Hodby said like the fictional Baskervilles, the Baskervilles of Clyro were of noble birth and were descended from the Dukes of Normandy.

But author Alistair Duncan, who has written four books about Sherlock Holmes and Conan Doyle, cast doubt on Mr Hodby's claims, although he did not dismiss them.
"There are hound legends in that area, but there are so many around the country," he said.
"I'm not saying the (Hergest Ridge) legend wasn't a contributory factor to Conan Doyle's story, but it's widely accepted that the credit goes to a journalist, Bertram Fletcher Robinson, who told Conan Doyle about the hound legends in Devon.

"As for the Baskerville name, Bertram Fletcher Robinson had a coachman called Henry Baskerville (one of the characters in the book).
"When the book was published Robinson gave a copy to his coachman which had an inscription apologising for using his name."

Mr Duncan said Conan Doyle's first wife, Louisa, had links to Wales and could have influenced him with stories of Hergest Ridge.
"Conan Doyle's diaries are widely available and they show he did not visit Wales when he was writing the story, but he was in Devon and Norfolk," he added.

But a recently published book by Margaret Newman Turner, from Presteigne, Powys, suggests the Hergest Ridge hound legend was the inspiration for Conan Doyle's story.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-16637408
 
rynner2 said:
There's an earlier, longer BLACK DOGS thread which nevertheless petered out in 2005.
http://forum.forteantimes.com/index.php?threads/black-dogs.16163/

But nowhere on the MB can I find a mention that ACD's Hound of the Baskervilles had its origin in Wales...

Powys hotel's Sherlock Holmes Hound of the Baskervilles link
By Carl Yapp BBC Wales News
22 January 2012

It is a mystery even Sherlock Holmes might have had a problem solving.
Who and what inspired Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's The Hound of the Baskervilles?

With Holmes enjoying a resurgence thanks to the BBC Wales-produced primetime TV drama Sherlock, and director Guy Ritchie releasing the second cinema adaptation, interest in the sleuth is soaring.
The origin of one of his most famous cases is disputed, with disagreements about how the novel came about.
But the owner of a hotel in Clyro, near Hay-on-Wye, Powys, claims his 19th Century property was the inspiration for Scottish author Conan Doyle's fictional Baskerville Hall.

David Hodby, who has owned Grade II-star listed Baskerville Hall Hotel since 1984, tells an interesting tale.
There is evidence that Conan Doyle might have known the Baskervilles.
The author's signature appears along with that of an R H Baskerville, believed to be Ralph Hopton Baskerville who inherited the family estate in 1905, on a document held by Powys council's archives department.
The paperwork is apparently in connection with the sale of two farms to R H Baskerville in the old county of Radnorshire in 1907.

Formerly known as Clyro Court, Mr Hodby's property was the family seat of the Baskervilles from 1839 until 1945, when it was sold to the local council and converted into a school.
Mr Hodby claims Conan Doyle was a friend of the Baskerville family, and was a regular visitor to their home.

The Hound of the Baskervilles is probably the most famous of Conan Doyle's stories about his sleuth, and is mainly set on Dartmoor, Devon.
In the story, the old and noble Baskerville family is threatened by the curse of a large black beast who terrorises and kills any family member who comes to live on the Baskerville estate.
But the story behind the detective's most famous case is almost as shrouded in fog as the tale itself, with some claiming that the fictional Baskerville Hall and legends of killer hounds come from Dartmoor and Devon.

Mr Hodby said Conan Doyle's story was based on the hounds of Black Vaughan which, as local legend has it, roamed the moors of nearby Hergest Ridge.
"Arthur Conan Doyle was a family friend who often came to stay here," Mr Hodby said.
"During his many visits he learned of the local legend, the Hounds of Black Vaughan, on nearby Hergest Ridge.
"The hounds were owned by the Vaughan family who ran an estate and the dogs were often set on walkers, some of whom died running from the dogs.
"That's how the legend started and Conan Doyle would have known this."

Mr Hodby added: "However, at the request of the Baskervilles he (Conan Doyle) set his famous novel in Devon to ward off tourists."
Mr Hodby said like the fictional Baskervilles, the Baskervilles of Clyro were of noble birth and were descended from the Dukes of Normandy.

But author Alistair Duncan, who has written four books about Sherlock Holmes and Conan Doyle, cast doubt on Mr Hodby's claims, although he did not dismiss them.
"There are hound legends in that area, but there are so many around the country," he said.
"I'm not saying the (Hergest Ridge) legend wasn't a contributory factor to Conan Doyle's story, but it's widely accepted that the credit goes to a journalist, Bertram Fletcher Robinson, who told Conan Doyle about the hound legends in Devon.

"As for the Baskerville name, Bertram Fletcher Robinson had a coachman called Henry Baskerville (one of the characters in the book).
"When the book was published Robinson gave a copy to his coachman which had an inscription apologising for using his name."

Mr Duncan said Conan Doyle's first wife, Louisa, had links to Wales and could have influenced him with stories of Hergest Ridge.
"Conan Doyle's diaries are widely available and they show he did not visit Wales when he was writing the story, but he was in Devon and Norfolk," he added.

But a recently published book by Margaret Newman Turner, from Presteigne, Powys, suggests the Hergest Ridge hound legend was the inspiration for Conan Doyle's story.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-16637408
Click to expand...
I've heard a Cromer story that when Sir Arthur stayed at Cromer Hall, he was told about the legend of Black Schuck, the phantom black dog that roamed this section of this coastline (North Norfolk but more specifically between Overstrand, Cromer and Sheringham) .. I've no idea if it's all true or not but his idea for The Hound of the Baskervilles might have been born in Cromer instead? ..
 
This new book looks really interesting,

A comprehensive study of the image of the Black Dog in folklore, with an extensive gazetteer of UK sightings and traditions
The study of folklore is very often the examination of symbolism and symbolic interpretation changes over time. Many ghosts appear or behave in a way that seems less naturalistic than symbolic and this is certainly true of the image of the Black Dog.
It is telling that apparitions of ghostly Black Dogs have been sighted, felt, heard and experienced in an unnatural way by people for nearly a millennium now and yet people stumble across information about them by chance when attempting to provide themselves with an explanation for what has occurred. Many people's knowledge of the subject stretches no further than The Hound of the Baskervilles and where they are more familiar, people often think that the Black Dog is evil or portentous in the manner of the Shuck.
Click to expand...

12321698_788789447919805_3054451301360599623_n.jpg


http://www.troybooks.co.uk/black-dog-folklore-pre-order.html
 
On a side note, the Mrs brought an empty gin bottle home tonight .. before anyone starts to worry about her alcohol consumption it was a 'Black Shuck Gin Norfolk's Legendary Spirit' bottle from her work place :cool: .. a new looking product but cool anyway and even if the label eventually peels off (which I'm determined to not let happen), the shape of the bottle is also great.

Bottle_white_ml.jpg
 
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Dayvan Cowboy said:
This may be of interest; I purchased a copy and it's fantastic.
http://www.folkloretapes.co.uk/product/ftoci-black-dog-traditions-of-england
Click to expand...
I'd love to own a copy of that, it looks like it's been put together with love .. on a less impressive note, the only black shuck book I own is Black Shuck - The Ghost Dog of Eastern England by Martin Newell .. there's a couple of pages on the background of the legend, the rest is a poem with illustrations, sort of a Dylan Thomas Under Milkwood kind of think. There's only 14 pages in it (I'm not kidding) and it sold originally for £6.95 in '99 .. Amazon are selling copies for $74 at the moment ..

black shuck.jpg


a snippet from it ..

When Shuck the dog came running
And poised on shingle sand
Looked out with blazing eyes across the foam
Then saw the wooden frigates
The cutters and the sloops
But not his master's longships sculling home

At times The Dog comes inland
Or northwards on his rounds
To run the muddy cow-tracks of before
The sun-cracked ruts of summer
Made mire by autumn rains
And frozen then in turn by winter hoar

Now through the ancient hamlets
The Dog runs swiftly on
Through parishes where people knew his name
As Ragusan and Barguest
As Galleytrot or Scarp
It differed, but the fear remained the same.



http://www.amazon.com/Black-Shuck-Ghost-Eastern-England/dp/095255948X/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1464902686&sr=1-3&keywords=black shuck
 
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One of my hobbies is trying to find the original sources for all my favorite fortean books. Here is a quote from John Keel's Strange Creatures from Time and Space [p. 26]: "A phantom donkey with shaggy hair and 'eyes like saucers' is supposed to have haunted Leeds, England, for many years and earned the nickname 'Padfoot'. It was said to be missing one, possibly two legs."

And here's what I've been able to find:

From: Henderson, William. Notes on the Folk-Lore of the Northern Counties of England and the Borders [Publications of the Folk-Lore Society, Vol. II] (London: W. Satchell Peyton and Co., 1879), pp. 273-274:

. . . the villages around Leeds have a nocturnal terror called the Padfoot. He is described as about the size of a small donkey, black, with shaggy hair and large eyes like saucers; and he follows people by night, or waylays them in the road which they have to pass.

A certain Yorkshire woman, called Old Sally Dransfield, the carrier from Leeds to Swillington, is a firm believer of the Padfoot. She declares that she has often seen it – sometimes rolling along the ground before her, like a woolpack – sometimes vanishing suddenly through a hedge. My friend, the Rev. J. C. Atkinson, of Danby, speaks of the Padfoot as a precursor of death; as sometimes visible, sometimes invisible, but ever and anon padding lightly in the rear of people, then again before them or at their side, and uttering a roar totally unlike the voice of any known animal. Sometimes the trail of a chain would be heard, accompanying the light quick pad of the feet. In size it was somewhat larger than a sheep, with long smooth hair. It was certainly safer to leave the creature alone, for a word or a blow gave it power over you; and a story is told of a man, whose way being obstructed again and again by the Padfoot, kicked the thing, and was forthwith dragged along through hedge and ditch to his home, and left under his own window. [1]

[Footnote] 1. A man in Horbury has lately seen “the Padfooit. [sic]” He was going home by Jenkin, and he saw a white dog in the hedge. He struck at it, and the stick passed through it. Then the white dog looked at him, and it had “great saucer e’en;” and he was so “flayed” that he ran home trembling and went to bed, when he fell ill and died. The “Padfooit” in this neighbourhood is a white dog like a “flay-craw.” It goes sometimes on two legs, sometimes it runs on three. To see it is a prognostication of death. I have no doubt that “the Padfooit” is akin to the two white sows yoked together with a silver chain which ran down the church lane in Lew Trenchard, Devon. It was the custom in ancient times to bury a dog or a boar alive under the cornerstone of a church, that its ghost might haunt the churchyard, and drive off any who would profane it, i.e. witches or warlocks.

In Sweden the beast which haunts churchyards is called the Kyrkogrim. It is there said that the first founders of Christian churches used to bury a lamb under the altar. When anyone enters a church out of service-time he may chance to see a little lamb spring across the quire, and vanish. That is the church lamb. Its appearance in the graveyard, especially to the gravedigger, is held to betoken the death of a child. In Denmark the animal is called the Kirkegrim.

A grave-sow is often seen in the streets of Kroskjoberg. This is said to be the apparition of a sow once buried alive, and to forebode death. In building a new bridge at Halle, which was completed in 1843, the people wanted to have a child immured in the foundation to secure its stability. – S.B.G. [The initials refer to our old friend S. Baring-Gould, and to his book Yorkshire Oddities.]

****

When I first read about “Padfoot” at the age of eleven, the image of a weird, three-legged donkey with saucer-eyes haunted me for years. This original source, however, mentions ghostly dogs, sows, lambs, a “woolpack” – but no donkey. Padfoot is “about the size of a small donkey,” he doesn’t look like a donkey.
 
Swifty said:
I've heard a Cromer story that when Sir Arthur stayed at Cromer Hall, he was told about the legend of Black Schuck, the phantom black dog that roamed this section of this coastline (North Norfolk but more specifically between Overstrand, Cromer and Sheringham) .. I've no idea if it's all true or not but his idea for The Hound of the Baskervilles might have been born in Cromer instead? ..
Click to expand...

I remember as a kid (probably somewhere between 1980 and 1983-ish) reading a reader's letter in either "Sporting Gun" or "Shooting Times" where someone related an experience they'd had with their partner whilst on a goose shooting trip somewhere in Norfolk (maybe The Wash?) They were staying on a house-boat (or possibly a hut which was on a raft) which was sat on a mud-flat and after a day's shooting were terrorised by a huge black dog baying outside and butting the boat, trying to break in, jumping on and off the roof, crashing round the outside of their temporary home, all night long. At first light it gave up the assault and ran away. The terrified occupants could find no tracks in the wet mud when they finally dared to venture out. (Why they didn't let it have a couple of barrels of 10 gauge goose shot, I don't know, that would bring a Lancaster down)
 
LordRsmacker said:
I remember as a kid (probably somewhere between 1980 and 1983-ish) reading a reader's letter in either "Sporting Gun" or "Shooting Times" where someone related an experience they'd had with their partner whilst on a goose shooting trip somewhere in Norfolk (maybe The Wash?) They were staying on a house-boat (or possibly a hut which was on a raft) which was sat on a mud-flat and after a day's shooting were terrorised by a huge black dog baying outside and butting the boat, trying to break in, jumping on and off the roof, crashing round the outside of their temporary home, all night long. At first light it gave up the assault and ran away. The terrified occupants could find no tracks in the wet mud when they finally dared to venture out. (Why they didn't let it have a couple of barrels of 10 gauge goose shot, I don't know, that would bring a Lancaster down)
Click to expand...
An artist chap I know who has a sea facing flat that hangs over the promenade swore blind to me that one night he saw a very large black dog running alone along the Cromer beach one night but he was probably pulling my leg ..

The other Cromer sea Black Shuck related story has a young boy swimming not far from the pier sometime in the 1800's, he wanted to play with the large black dog that he'd followed into the sea but as he got closer, the dog's eyes turned to red. As a couple of local fisherman rowed over to rescue the boy, Shuck is told to have turned into a fireball and shot up into the sky ..

Shuck was also said to have gone on a notorious murdering rampage in the 1500's ..

https://genelempp.wordpress.com/2011/12/07/designing-from-bones-demon-protector-patsy/

In reference to the damaged church door in the above link ... I worked in the Red Lion Hotel that also overlooks the Cromer sea, the bar contains a large central fireplace with similar scratch marks on it. We decided that either there used to be a dartboard behind it and people used the brick to sharpen darts or more likely, because it was a more functional than decorative looking fireplace, cooks probably sharpened knives on it .... this didn't stop us from inventing some fake folklore for fun to tourists and leaving the question open as to whether Black Shuck had caused those scratch marks ;) ..
 
I've got a feeling I'm going to be spending a lot of time on this site. Here's SCP's report on Black Shuck, obviously faked but beautifully done.

http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-023

... and a suitable stout

blackstout.png
 
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Just going through my bookshelves and came across my own little booklet, which I don't often think about these days (published back in 2007). However, as far as I can tell after an albeit brief skim of this thread, Latin America hasn't had a mention. My booklet has been freely available as a PDF for some years now, so I don't think this is self-promotion, and should be of interest here:

Phantom Black Dogs in Latin America

I also wrote a follow-up article, which was only ever published on the Heart of Albion website and academia.org:

Phantom Black Dogs in Prehispanic Mexico
 

Seems to be the right thread for this?​

​

Large Hound​

Location: Northallerton (Yorkshire) - A684, between Northallerton and Leeming Bar
Type: Shuck
Date / Time: Summer 2001, between 20:00h - 22:00h
Further Comments: A large black dog ran in front of two women travelling to Leeming Bar by car. The driver closed her eyes and braked hard, expecting to hit the creature. The passenger watched the hound pass through the bonnet, and noticed the creature had no facial features, floppy ears, and was shadow-like. A man that the women spoke to once they reached their destination later killed himself - was the hound a portent?

https://www.paranormaldatabase.com/recent/index.php
 
I'm in a semi privileged position of having (potential) access to discussion with the Cabell family. I don't expect they can tell me any more than their ancestor told Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. I've already been inside Cromer Hall and spoken with Lady Cabell, her husband owns Amazonia Zoo and I've chatted with him there but only about his zoo.

The same family line have owned the hall for hundreds of years. There's also areas here still named after their family. This is on a long list of things I'd like to do but probably never will. To skip to the end, he thought she was cheating on him, he followed her to the moors to confront her, her big black dog jumped up to defend her and bit his throat, he died, Conan Doyle was told about the family banshee type superstitious legend about black dogs, finished his meal in the hall, went back to the public house building he was staying then started to write 'The Hound of the Baskervilles' .. no mention of Black Shuck in this instance though but various black dog tales in one way or another, as an excellent issue of Fortean Times magazine went into detail about, are prevalent in Norfolk and Suffolk.
 
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