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Bumfights & Societal Decline

Adrian Veidt said:
Of course they will take money to do that sort of thing, they have no other way to get money. And are so bereft of any form of dignity or self respect that they are prepared to do these things.

One could say precisely the same of any person who takes a job that she doesn't like simply because she needs the money. And is it really fair or compassionate to try and stop someone from earning badly-needed money simply because we (if not they) feel the job to be beneath our (if not their) dignity?
 
I also imagine these videos will be stopped, because people feel nobody should be made to do these things for money. So the bums will instead die of starvation because they lost the little income they had.
 
Or alternatively, we could stop rationalising that somehow getting a person to mutilate themselves for the pleasure of other people is for their own good. To try and equate that with doing a low paying job that you don't particularly like is unbelievable.
By the logic you are using it would be wrong to put child pornographers, or people who arrange dogfights, out of business because they need the money. :rolleyes:
You don't combat an evil in society by condoning an even greater one.
 
Except where they die of infections caused by self mutilation :D

8¬)

[edit] Adrian beat me to it...curses[/edit]
 
Adrian Veidt said:
Or alternatively, we could stop rationalising that somehow getting a person to mutilate themselves for the pleasure of other people is for their own good. To try and equate that with doing a low paying job that you don't particularly like is unbelievable.
By the logic you are using it would be wrong to put child pornographers, or people who arrange dogfights, out of business because they need the money. :rolleyes:
You don't combat an evil in society by condoning an even greater one.

how can an intelligent man like your self come out with that one? just because someone takes a job they dont like for the cash, it doesnt put them in the same legaue as child pornographers.

when i was at uni i took many jobs i didnt like and by your translation of Windwhistler's post. i was in the same mentality as a child pornographer, Windwhistler wasnt saying that nor implying that ( i dont think ) so how do you come to that conclusion??

Again my point is, most Bums were drug addicts before they became homeless, they new what they were doing and they deserve anything they get. if that means more exploitation!
 
Chopp, I think youve misread the clauses there, or Adrian has sort of misplaced things

He's saying that placing people who take a low paid job for the cash are NOTHING like the sort of arseholes who pay people to mutilate themselves. Those scum are more like child pornographers. How many low paid jobs actually require you to remove body parts?

Also, the idea that homelessness is a symptom of addiction is largely spurious. Its the victorian concept that people have to deserve their fate. A lot don't. They can have just broken mentally or fled an abusive home. Life, when you have fallen through the cracks, is bloody unpleasent, and if you get through by drinking purple meths, then you do. You become dependent because you are no longer quite in the hell you were. The chain is more usually homelessness then addiction, usually to alchohol. However, if its more comforting to believe otherwise, I can't stop you.

As to some other comments made on this thread...

Isn't it nice to know that we indiectly mix with people who would buy 'Starving Orphans Bowie Knife Fighting for Bread Volume 3' because they find it funny. Just get in a few tins of cheap larger (not too many only 20 or 30 a head), call one's equally dysfunctional friends round for a curry and watch human degradation at its best, since it makes one feel better about one's own pointless, benighted existance, with the help of the cheap lager of course... :D You can tell, I love my fellow man :rolleyes:

8¬)
 
Harlequin, I think I love you! You said everything in that last paragraph that I have been struggling to write coherently ever since this thread began. Thank you.
 
I don't think that the argument 'the rich have always exploited the poor' means that makes it OK. As has been said before (sort of) two wrongs don't make a right.

Although no-one may be physically forced into taking part, I think there could well be enormous physcological pressure, when you are at rock bottom, I don't imagine that your level of objectivity is at its best.

And finally, I don't see how watching people being humiliated and being treated with no respect or dignity can be considered 'fun'.
 
mrchopper said:
Again my point is, most Bums were drug addicts before they became homeless, they new what they were doing and they deserve anything they get. if that means more exploitation!

Chop, 2 months ago I could have become homeless. I am 8 months behind with my mortgage and had no way to pay it. I had to go to court to convince the judge not to let the mortgage lender take my home away. I am neither a drug addict nor a drug abuser. I was 'lucky' that I managed to get a long term temp job that allows me to pay some semblance of the mortgage so I don't have my home taken from me. I still live from day to day, from week to week. Hoping that I can earn enough to pay the mortgage, get me my fares so I can continue working, and feed myself. Thjis wasn't my fault, it was circumstances. I was made redundant and have been unable to find a job since. I'm lucky, I've managed to find work with an agency because they knew me, not because they needed any other staff on their books. I hide from the debt collectors and fret every day that I am going to lose everything.
Do you classify me as a drug addict? Is whatever happens to me classed as justice in your mind? I could be out on the street tomorrow, there is nothing I can do about it. I don't have a family to bail me out. I struggle every day. Don't you dare be so complacent and comfortable in your own little world that you would say that I deserve to have sadistic bastards pay me to pull out my own teeth so that I could survive.
 
Adrian: i was saying drug addicts have them selves to blame it just so happens they find themself's homeless too. i have a problem with addicts of any kind and not homless people. many homeless people are genuine people but not all, many have made a choice to refuse help because there pride is too much to swallow.

i have no problem with the homless just addicts!!!

your circumstances are unfair adrian, that your left in a pickle just because you were made redundant. and its a shame you have no-where to fall back on.

if your circumstances get too much, come stay at mine for a few days, for a few quid i'll get you a new passport and you can start again. we have a spare room for you any day mate.
 
Al Hirt said:
Adrian. You sound like your life is in a mess. I hope it gets better for you soon.
However in mrchoppers defence I dont think he was emplying that ALL homeless people are drug adicts and alcoholics. The ones in the bum fight video are.
If they want to take the money then why shouldnt they? Prostitues take money for allowing themselves to be violated for someones entertainment so why cant they?

Sorry Al, he didn't have any in-depth background to any of the people on that video. If he did it was just on the word of the people exploiting them. He made a judgement based on his own prejudice, and tried to defend his own callous prurient nature by saying that all the people who were drug addicts and alcoholics were abused. Further, he implied that just because you are a drug addict or an alcoholic you deserve to be abused.
He may be the perfect and shining example of humanity to which we all aspire, but most of us aren't. He sickens me.
 
Adrian Veidt said:
Sorry Al, he didn't have any in-depth background to any of the people on that video. If he did it was just on the word of the people exploiting them. He made a judgement based on his own prejudice, and tried to defend his own callous prurient nature by saying that all the people who were drug addicts and alcoholics were abused. Further, he implied that just because you are a drug addict or an alcoholic you deserve to be abused.
He may be the perfect and shining example of humanity to which we all aspire, but most of us aren't. He sickens me.

thats what i honestly think adrian, put the film asside as well as the homeless thing.

if someone is stupid enough to get themselfs addicted to drugs/alchohol and the only way they can feed there habbit is to be exploited then its tough shit!! they new the risks when they first smoked an E. now its time to face the conciquences, its just lucky for them there are too many gullable people willing to spend there hard earned cash helping them out.
 
Sorry Chop but no. Your first assertion was that homeless people were addicts and therefore deserved what they got. The first argument you made was about drug addiction.

Always a question I've never understood. Why is taking drugs like marijuana and opium illegal? These are naturally occurring substances. Why?
 
Adrian Veidt said:
Sorry Chop but no. Your first assertion was that homeless people were addicts and therefore deserved what they got. The first argument you made was about drug addiction.

Always a question I've never understood. Why is taking drugs like marijuana and opium illegal? These are naturally occurring substances. Why?

i may have worded it wrong, i should of said if they were homeless do to addiction then tough shit. they do get what they deserve!

addiction is for stupid, weak people!
 
If only the world were that simple. The good guys are always honest and true. The bad guys are obviously evil and wear black hats.
Grow up and live in the real world. People get sucked into situations that they can't control. Not everyone has a home and a wife to go home to. Some people live their lives the best they know how. And try and stop the pain in any way available. To judge and condemn them for that is disgusting at best.
Ok, there are a very small minority who choose to live that way, but the majority don't. Try to overcome the easy prejudices which enable you to sleep at night and look at the real world. People hurt. People are in pain. People get thrust into situations beyond their control. It isn't their fault, they escape from the shit that is life in any way they can.
 
Adrian Veidt said:
If only the world were that simple. The good guys are always honest and true. The bad guys are obviously evil and wear black hats.
Grow up and live in the real world. People get sucked into situations that they can't control. Not everyone has a home and a wife to go home to. Some people live their lives the best they know how. And try and stop the pain in any way available. To judge and condemn them for that is disgusting at best.
Ok, there are a very small minority who choose to live that way, but the majority don't. Try to overcome the easy prejudices which enable you to sleep at night and look at the real world. People hurt. People are in pain. People get thrust into situations beyond their control. It isn't their fault, they escape from the shit that is life in any way they can.

i think you either have still missed my point. i dont see how anyone can be forced into addiction. fair enough a pimp can beat the crap out of one of his girls untill she snorts coke every day etc. but i cant see how any given situation is going to make you a drug addict, these people are addicts because there stupid and chose to take that first step. please tell me how someone can be forced into this situation? people are in pain people do hurt, people dont have a wife to go home too, but i still dont see this as an excuse to turn to drugs. you do sound like an addict mate!
 
mrchopper said:
i have no problem with the homless just addicts!!!

Mr C honey (this isn't a flame), addicts can't help it. That's why it's called an addiction.
Ok, so they did one stupid thing when they go into it, but after that they were victims of dealers, of the chemicals themselves.

I'm not being a wussy leftie here, it's something I have personal experience with. When you are addicted you are helpless. You can't just pull yourself together no matter how hard you try.

Something to read:

http://www.addictionscience.net/ASNprimer.htm

Many factors influence a person’s initial drug use. Personality characteristics, peer pressure, and psychological stress can all contribute to the early stage of drug abuse. These factors are less important as drug use continues and the person repeatedly experiences the potent pharmacological effects of the drug. This chemical action, which stimulates certain brain systems, produces the addiction, while other psychological and social factors become less and less important in influencing the individual’s behavior. When the pharmacological action of a drug dominates the individual’s behavior and the normal psychological and social control of behavior is no longer effective, the addiction is fully developed. This self-perceived "loss of control" is a common feature of drug addiction and reflects the biological nature of the problem.


pinkle
(just basically saying it's not all cut n dry)

P.S - just read your last post MrC - just because someone is weak willed at a certain point in their life doesn't mean they are stupid.
Life is tough, shit happens. I think you are being a bit harsh.
 
Pinklefish said:
Ok, so they did one stupid thing when they go into it,

thats my point exactly then you go and contradict yourself, my point is that. the one stupid mistake they make, is a concious dicision to becaome an addict. by taking the first step whether it be peer pressure or curiosity i dont care, everyone has a mind of there own, if you choose the first step you choose the rest of the downword ladder.
 
Life is hard and sometimes you get a tough break butyour not trying to tell me Adrian that if you did end up on the street that you would become a heroin addict? Heroin by the way is a natural substance, your views on how it is natural and shouldnt be wrong is totally out of order in my opinion. (Heroin is the reason why most of these people your trying to defend are on the streets in the first place) [/QUOTE]

I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that people who try to escape their pathetic existence aren't judged as long as they have a home to go to. I can go home every night and drink myself unconcious, I can go to the pub and pick a fight with anyone I please. Unless I cause serious damage I won't face anything worse than a night in the cells. I'll get cautioned and sent home. But god forbid I have any marijuana on me, something which is actually soothing and would have stoipped me being violent to anyone. Then i would have been imprisoned.
The banning of drugs is the major reason for crome in most western countries. Far more harm is caused by tobacco and alcohol, but they are taxed. So their lethal properties are allowed. More people die from liver failure or from lung cancer than from any non'prescribed drug.
 
Adrian Veidt said:
Life is hard and sometimes you get a tough break butyour not trying to tell me Adrian that if you did end up on the street that you would become a heroin addict? Heroin by the way is a natural substance, your views on how it is natural and shouldnt be wrong is totally out of order in my opinion. (Heroin is the reason why most of these people your trying to defend are on the streets in the first place)


I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that people who try to escape their pathetic existence aren't judged as long as they have a home to go to. I can go home every night and drink myself unconcious, I can go to the pub and pick a fight with anyone I please. Unless I cause serious damage I won't face anything worse than a night in the cells. I'll get cautioned and sent home. But god forbid I have any marijuana on me, something which is actually soothing and would have stoipped me being violent to anyone. Then i would have been imprisoned.
The banning of drugs is the major reason for crome in most western countries. Far more harm is caused by tobacco and alcohol, but they are taxed. So their lethal properties are allowed. More people die from liver failure or from lung cancer than from any non'prescribed drug. [/quote]

i see what your saying adrian, but you havent answerd my question. how can people be forced into addiction by there circumstances, it just doesnt add up.

weed may be less likely to harm you than other drugs, but it is still that an illegal drug. if you get caught with it, then you should face the concequences, you shouldnt be able to compare it to other drugs to get off.

im an amature race driver adrian. if i have an accident on the road and my insurance company wont pay up because i was driving carelesslsy i cant turn round and say at weekend i drive round a track at dangerous speeds, which is far more dangerous so please give me some money can i? no because its two totally different things.

so how can people be forced into addiction by there circumstances?
 
When I was younger I was offered virtually everything going , free . I nearly always said no but it would have been so easy to accept some things, it doesn't take much effort to say yes.
 
Come on now, aren't we all getting a bit over excited. Come back to mine to inject some cannabis and we can all chill out.
 
Hmm. I'm allergic to the m-weed, but I've never tried it IV. Anyway, this thread has headed into an interesting direction. Mostly opinions flowing here. Like capital punishment and abortion - there is no one answer for everyone.
But I'll throw my opinion in here cause it's getting late and I'm bored. Some people seem to forget that life is actually very simple. It's people that get complicated and confusing. Many pressures are merely perceived, while real pressure from someone indicates they are not worthy of your time, let alone your friendship. Anyone who gives into pressure on a personal level (as opposed to a professional level in the workplace) to act, behave, or conform a certain way is either too weak or too altruistic. In a weird way, this is all what I was saying in my last post on this thread.
What I think you'll find is the people who perceive these sociological pressures are the same people who make these videos, and who enjoy watching them. What it comes down to is the fact that you don't belong to anyone else. If you're stupid enough to get pressured into drug addiction, then you're probably stupid enough to run face-first into a brick wall for 5 dollars. If you are like me and are put off by the whole concept of personal/social/peer pressure, then you probably think the videos and those who truely enjoy them are lacking in some way. And if I've offended anyone in any way, I'm truely not sorry.
 
make thats exactly what i have been trying to say but it looks like i have either been misunder-stood or i have written it wrong.


If you're stupid enough to get pressured into drug addiction, then you're probably stupid enough to run face-first into a brick wall for 5 quid
 
What's really striking to me is that the people trying to ban things like bum-fighting films have the sheer audacity to claim that they're trying to protect the dignity of others by taking away their freedom to make an undignified choice. There's something very 1984 about that concept....

Apart from that, I've a sneaking suspicion that no-one's really all that worried over what happens to the bums to start with. Some people are upset because the films offend their sense of propriety. Others simply see this as an 'issue' that can be used for political leverage, much like the woman who was fear-mongering about how this will lead to 'copycat' attacks against bums. Lastly there are those eager to be publicly seen 'doing good', but who don't want to actually have to interact with disgusting people such as bums. Something like this is a tailor-made opportunity for them. The 'Bumfights' people have at least put some money into the bums' pockets, which is more good than any of the previously mentioned groups have managed.

Meanwhile, the people who actually care about the bums are in the soup kitchens and shelters, not out in public grandstanding about some video.
 
But they might not be capable of realising what they are agreeing to do . Like the dippy kids when i was a kid eating dog crap because someone told them it was sausages and it was their tea. So they could be entertained watching it happen .
I wasn't fearmongering . I just know what people are like . I don't live in your hugs and puppies world and i do deal with people like that .
 
What she said.
Plus, mental illness...have we covered that yet?
Taking advantage of mentally ill people ... bad.

pinkle
 
Marion said:
I wasn't fearmongering .

"Debbie Lyne, a spokesman for London Connection, a charity for young homeless people[...]added that the video could lead to copycat attacks on homeless people in Britain. "

This is you?
 
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