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Butterflies

GNC

King-Sized Canary
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Aug 25, 2001
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I can find a few mentions of butterflies on the board, but no butterfly thread, so...

I left the window open in my bedroom to get some air into the place in the heat, and when I went up there yesterday I found a butterfly (red admiral) had got in and was trying and failing to get out. So I opened the window fully, expecting a lot of corralling to get the creature to fly back out, but nope, it noticed straight away and off it went to its wild blue yonders.

So my question is, are butterflies more intelligent than actual flies? You wouldn't get a bluebottle doing that, in fact most flies just bounce off the pane even though there's a gap they could easily escape through. Anyone know about butterfly psychology?
 
Loth as I am to quibble with your wording, I think it's very difficult to compare the 'intelligence' of flies and butterflies. As far as I know, they don't have the capacity to deal in abstractions and almost certainly are not-self aware, what we are really asking is how highly-evolved their physiology and 'stimulus/reaction' problem solving 'programs' or 'instincts' are. Psychology--although I assume you were having fun--is definitely a step too far.

To take your specific example, the advent of extremely transparent windows occurred yesterday in evolutionary terms. If a butterfly handles this obstacle more effectively than, say, a bluebottle, it could be because it is handled with resort to the same strategy as is employed to overcome a similar 'natural' obstacle that has been encountered by butterflies more times than flies in the past. What that similar obstacle could be, I shall have to consider further.

I'd thought that we had a thread asking 'Are Moths Butterflies' (just a nocturnal variety), to which the answer was 'no, not technically' although they both belong to the order Lepidoptera, but if there was it has been merged or mysteriously lost.

I see there is now a whole Wikipedia page devoted to the numerous differences between them:

See Here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_butterflies_and_moths
 
I suppose butterflies could be more attuned to... what? Sunlight? Fresh air? Because of the big wings? Which is why it flew out the window so easily?

As far as I know, butterflies are not attracted to electric lights like moths are, so there's a difference.
 
I suppose butterflies could be more attuned to... what? Sunlight? Fresh air? Because of the big wings? Which is why it flew out the window so easily?

As far as I know, butterflies are not attracted to electric lights like moths are, so there's a difference.

Pure speculation, but the fact that flies can survive pretty much anywhere on Earth, might indicate something about their (lack of) heat sensitivity. Perhaps butterflies are much more sensitive the the currents in the air.

I have no idea.
 
I had a bloody big moth fly in, right past me the other day. I dislike having any large flying thing in the school as they can (and do) activate the PIR sensors (usually at some ungodly hour). I wanted to get it out before it got hidden in the large room I was in and I held back the plastic draught excluder a on the door to tell the lady I was working with that I was going to look for the moth, when it flew straight across the room, straight through the gap I'd made. The room has a lot of windows and five glass doors, yet it seemed to know which one it could get through.
 
Random butterfly vs fly thought (based on nothing but speculation): Maybe if you're a butterfly you get more feedback from your big wings because they're more flappy. So if you flap at a window pane you can feel there's something there because some air bounces back. But if you're a fly your little fly wings are going so fast that you don't get that.
 
I had a bloody big moth fly in, right past me the other day. I dislike having any large flying thing in the school as they can (and do) activate the PIR sensors (usually at some ungodly hour). I wanted to get it out before it got hidden in the large room I was in and I held back the plastic draught excluder a on the door to tell the lady I was working with that I was going to look for the moth, when it flew straight across the room, straight through the gap I'd made. The room has a lot of windows and five glass doors, yet it seemed to know which one it could get through.

Seems that it is thought that Butterflies have developed from Moths.
Also, a certain Moth has a single hair type receptor on each scale which apparently is able to detect objects/vibrations, through tiny air movements.

See article: https://www.researchgate.net/public...wing_margins_of_the_silkworm_moth_Bombyx_mori
 
maybe a butterfly got out the window quicker just because they're generally larger than the type of flies that get in your house, and the distance between where it was and the open window seemed less vast and more noticeable to the butterfly.

btw, any butterfly fans in the uk the https://www.bigbutterflycount.org/ is on till aug 11th. get counting and registering the butterflies you see as part of the record of nature health in this country. the more butterflies number and diversity there is, the better for nature.

i've seen a lot more this year than in recent years. and yet no peacocks. which is odd.
 
Wise words, @Ladyloafer .

Just seen the cabbage white and the red admiral round here, though there is a very occasional little orange one I haven't been able to identify (definitely not a moth).
 
I had a bloody big moth fly in, right past me the other day. I dislike having any large flying thing in the school as they can (and do) activate the PIR sensors (usually at some ungodly hour). I wanted to get it out before it got hidden in the large room I was in and I held back the plastic draught excluder a on the door to tell the lady I was working with that I was going to look for the moth, when it flew straight across the room, straight through the gap I'd made. The room has a lot of windows and five glass doors, yet it seemed to know which one it could get through.

And yet I held the door open twice, yesterday, for a moth and it just insisted on landing at the window nearby. :D

Edit: You may be interested in this thread: https://forums.forteana.org/index.p...-aka-too-much-anthropomorphising.63099/page-2
(Page two involves my own encounter with both a moth and subsequently a butterfly)
 
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I suppose we should be glad insects aren't smarter, or else they'd take over the world. Maybe my butterfly yesterday let the mask slip, and it really is that smart.
 
fyi i have just learnt a group of moths is called an 'eclipse'. !

That seems a very relevant logical name for a group of Moths, as on brightly lit Moonlight nights - moths in my neck of the woods are very prevalent indeed.
 
Was on work early today so relaxed on t'sofa with the Mac when I got home.

Had a micro-dream where I looked over at Techy, who was in fact, I noticed with interest, a giant chrysalis. I thought 'Wow, so he's going to be a moth!' and woke up, laughed and looked at this thread. Yikes.
 
Don't worry, this is really the butterflies thread, not the moths thread (we probably have a moths thread, don't we?).
 
Just discovered this thread. I had a butterfly drama this week, maybe someone can help solve the mystery. I have a volunteer fennel plant growing between the cellar doors and the AC compressor outside my house. This year I counted 10 caterpillars - anise swallowtails - on it. Within a few days, only 6 remained and they were pupating on the door structure, on the compressor and on the plant itself. One crawled all the way up the deck and made a chrysalis on the railing (good for me to keep an eye on it). Two days ago, I checked and ALL the chrysalises were gone except the one on the deck. What came right next to the house and plucked them? I never see birds there. Could it have been a skunk or a cat? They must have a very strong licorice taste from their diet. Any ideas?

A side note, that rebel who chose to go far afield had the right idea.
IMG_20190718_162023.jpgIMG_20190723_164505.jpg
 
I think I'm right in saying that many caterpillars eat their chrysalises once they hatch, so that could be an explanation rather than some outside force lunching on them.
 
OK, forget what I said, butterflies do NOT eat their chrysalises, I've just looked it up and they just disintegrate in the weather naturally.
 
I'm going down quite a wormhole here (caterpillar hole?), but apparently ants will eat butterfly chrysalises, and wasps too. But the message seems to be the butterfly got away first (one hopes).
 
I'm going down quite a wormhole here (caterpillar hole?), but apparently ants will eat butterfly chrysalises, and wasps too. But the message seems to be the butterfly got away first (one hopes).
I would like to think that but they were not pupating for long, only 3 days, way too short.
 
RIP butterflies. Might be an idea for a children's book - The Very Hungry Ants Eat the Very Hungry Caterpillar.
 
RIP butterflies. Might be an idea for a children's book - The Very Hungry Ants Eat the Very Hungry Caterpillar.
That would be filed under "horror".
What is interesting is I found what looks like cat feces nearby. We have a number of highly annoying roaming cats. The poop was right under the plant. Coincidental, maybe.
 
I suppose cats like to chase and eat spiders, so it's not such a stretch to think they'd eat caterpillars, etc too.
 
Read this as National Mammoth Week...
 
Oh oh. Apparently in the states it's http://nationalmothweek.org/ right now.

I know this is butterfly thread but they're family!

Actually, it's more than the States, but not officially in the States (emphasis added):
"National Moth Week is being held, worldwide, during the last full week of July."
"If you are in the USA ask you [sic] senator to support the Proposed resolution to make the last week in July National Moth Week!"
(The link says the resolution died in the Congress that ended in January 2015. So much for being current.)

Why a worldwide event is called National is anyone's guess. I guess it's kind of like the "World" Series of baseball.
 
I have had what I term 'Butterfly experiences'. In my 'best room' the window is only opened in the Summer. However 7 Christmases ago on Christmas morning I found 2 Butterflies on my window sill ( inside). Both were alive so I gave them some sugared water to feed on. Both died and weird as it sounds I kept them in a china vase. Anyhow, 3 weeks ago I found another Butterfly again on my window sill and as it was motionless and even when I gently touched it I assumed it was dead. It vanished somewhere the next day and I haven't seen it since. Nowhere to be found in fact. I find it strange they seem to be able to survive in a sealed off room for possibly ages without food. I wonder if there is an explanation for this? Hibernation perhaps?
 
A mysterious behemoth butterfly.

Suspended from branches high above the ground, Nicolas Moulin looked through his binoculars over a seemingly endless sea of emerald green.

Somewhere beneath the forest canopy was the African giant swallowtail: the largest butterfly to appear by day on the African continent, virtually unrecorded in scientific annals but known to be venomous.The species, known in Latin as Papilio antimachus, was discovered in 1782. Its black-streaked orange-brown wings are extraordinary. They reach up to 25 centimetres (9.8 inches) across, making it one of the largest butterflies in the world.

But, just as remarkable, nobody has ever been able to study the creature in its state as caterpillar or chrysalis—keys to understanding its life cycle and longevity.

https://phys.org/news/2019-12-african-forest-mystery-giant-butterfly.html
 
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