Capitol Debate Chamber Washington DC Invaded By Armed Protesters

ChasFink

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I'm beginning to worry about law enforcement personnel who may have assisted or participated in the storming of the Capitol. There have been too many legitimate news stories about this for me to doubt that at least some instances of this are true. While there has been some concern over overzealous or prejudiced police in the US recently, I had hoped that we were free of cops who would knowingly participate in such obviously unlawful acts. I pray that any who were involved will be punished severely, and that the message sinks in with any who might consider doing it in the future.
 

Lobeydosser

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Arnold Shwarzenegger's video response in his role as a former Goverernor is interesting - I won't post the link as it is inherently political, but hope I'm ok mentioning it here as it's interesting and I'd argue somewhat Fortean in it's own right. (which Mandela-esque universe did I end up in here ?)
 

ramonmercado

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Interesting development.

The attorney general of Washington D.C. says he is considering charging President Donald Trump with inciting the violent attack on the Capitol building carried out by his supporters.

D.C. Attorney General Karl Racine is weighing charges for the president stemming from the Jan. 6 siege on the Capitol. CNN correspondent Evan Perez reported on the news, but says that Racine is taking an “expansive view of his powers” by claiming that charging the president is within his purview — rather than that of federal prosecutors. ...

https://www.mediaite.com/trump/brea...at-charging-trump-for-inciting-capitol-riots/
 

Kondoru

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You couldnt make this up.

Well, you could...But it would not be a believable story.
 

Frideswide

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I'm beginning to worry about law enforcement personnel who may have assisted or participated in the storming of the Capitol. There have been too many legitimate news stories about this for me to doubt that at least some instances of this are true. While there has been some concern over overzealous or prejudiced police in the US recently, I had hoped that we were free of cops who would knowingly participate in such obviously unlawful acts. I pray that any who were involved will be punished severely, and that the message sinks in with any who might consider doing it in the future.
I have no idea if this is a useful parallel or not.

I managed a trouble-shooting dept at a uni for some years, before recent security issues. We were tucked away in 4th floor rooms whence I and my handpicked team sallied forth to tackle and data gather on ICT issues thrown up as a big institution computerised /everything/. I'm trying to make it sound exciting! * Then brainstorming and passing reports back to Computing Services and other executive sections. Worked well. Apart from sometimes talking with students who'd had something turn up for them we had nothing to do with the student body.

There was a season of student protests. I have no idea what they were about and my union said that we should simply go about our lives in a parallel universe - whatever the grievance, it wasn't something where we had anything useful to add to either side.

An occupation was called - not by the strike organisers. We didn't get any notice. We, and the other similar departments next to us suddenly had people all over the place. We didn't have the personal records that our neighbours did but we did have reports that we didn't want splashed every where.

I met them at the door to our suite having briefed the team. Pointed out that we had nothing of interest and that I wasn't (WAS NOT) giving us them permission to come in. They pushed by me (in front of the team as witnesses). After which we offered to take souvenir photos of them and us and we'd send them to their emails if they gave us their email addresses.

They fell for it :rollingw:

TLDR sometimes you take a selfie with someone because you want proof that person was there






* It was exciting but I accept that you have to be a certain sort of person to find it so ;)
 

Mikefule

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Today, American TV news programs showed a policeman being beaten with a rod with an American flag attached to it. Being American, this act made me so sick I just wanted to throw up.
Ironically, as an Englishman, I felt unhappy when I saw the guy with the (commonly called) Confederate flag.

When I was a lad in 1970s England, the Confederate flag was known as the rebel flag" and was a cheerful badge of rebellion, particularly associated with the music of the south. As a rock and roll and rockabilly fan, and an admirer of Lynyrd Skynyrd, there was a period when I wore this flag proudly as a sign of my affiliation to an innocent musical subculture.

Over the intervening years, the flag came to be more directly associated with the causes of the American civil war to the point when I became uncomfortable wearing it and I disposed of my various items of "rebel flag" regalia.

It now seems to have become a fully fledged symbol of an unpleasant extremist mentality with which I would certainly not wish to be associated.

The meaning of any symbol is its common use and, as with our own flag of St George, anyone who chooses to fly the Confederate flag for benign reasons needs to consider how others may associate it with the far right. In the same way, you can't wear a swastika as "an ancient Indian symbol of good luck" and simply ignore the fact that most people will see it as a symbol of Naziism.

I sure hope that all these Rebels Without Causes have fled the country by now...
"What are you rebelling against, Johnny?"
"Whaddaya got?"
(From The Wild One, Marlon Brando.)

It is the sign of a generally stable and altogether too comfortable society that rebellion becomes a lifestyle choice and "rebel" becomes an identity. (I've been there. See my comment above!)

In less fortunate countries, rebels have it less easy. When people really have to rebel, they don't express surprise that the police were so harsh, "Because this is a revolution," as that entitled recreational rebel did the other day. Real rebels have a real cause. Real rebellion is life or death, not a self indulgence.

This whole episode has been a test of the robustness of the American system in the face of a sustained attempt to subvert it, and so far, I am relieved to see how well it's stood up.
 

Sabresonic

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Yo saw how quickly the Swastika went from Sex Pistols fashion to NF/BNP Skinhead.
 

ChasFink

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TLDR sometimes you take a selfie with someone because you want proof that person was there
This may explain some apparent "cooperation" by police on duty, but I was mostly referring to officers who may have traveled from far away to actively participate. And then there's this:

Army investigating officer Emily Rainey who led group to DC rally ahead of Capitol riots
A psychological operations officer at Fort Bragg is under investigation by the Army after leading a group of 100 Trump supporters from North Carolina to Washington, D.C., last week on the same day rioters stormed the U.S. Capitol building, interrupting the official certification of Electoral College votes.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/north-ca...nvestigation-dc-rally-capitol-riot-fort-bragg

She's a PSYOPS officer who went because she wanted to "stand against election fraud". :huh: :conf2:
 

Kondoru

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Mikefule; I feel the same, I used to fly the flag...now I'm getting uncomfortable about it.
 

Yithian

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When I was a lad in 1970s England, the Confederate flag was known as the rebel flag" and was a cheerful badge of rebellion, particularly associated with the music of the south. As a rock and roll and rockabilly fan, and an admirer of Lynyrd Skynyrd, there was a period when I wore this flag proudly as a sign of my affiliation to an innocent musical subculture.
I can't quite get to the mental point where the "rebel flag" belongs only to the bad guys.

With the Atlantic between me and reality, the order of association is:

1) The Dukes of Hazzard.
2) The Confederate Army.
3) Lynyrd Skynyrd with a dash of Pantera.

And No.2 is specifically the unifomed soldiers, not the Confederacy as a whole. I don't know why, but when I think of slavery, cotton fields, lynchings and the KKK, I find that the flag doesn't feature.

Hence, although I can see the problem with its entering the U.S. Capitol, it carries no psychological shock for me.

Merely noting. Not an American. Don't have to live through this mess.
 

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The confederate flag is not something Black people in the US have ever been comfortable with. For a long time, it was treated as simply an emblem of the South by most people here. White people that is. Now it's pretty much exclusively a symbol of idiot rabbles like the one that turned stomachs world wide last Wednesday. One would think the stupid fuckers would get tired of losing the Civil War, and find something productive to do.
 

Yithian

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The confederate flag is not something Black people in the US have ever been comfortable with. For a long time, it was treated as simply an emblem of the South by most people here. White people that is. Now it's pretty much exclusively a symbol of idiot rabbles like the one that turned stomachs world wide last Wednesday. One would think the stupid fuckers would get tired of losing the Civil War, and find something productive to do.
The South had a good post-war marketing team, it seems.
 

Mikefule

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And No.2 is specifically the unifomed soldiers, not the Confederacy as a whole. I don't know why, but when I think of slavery, cotton fields, lynchings and the KKK, I find that the flag doesn't feature.
Technically, you are right. It was the battle flag — easily distinguished from the stars and stripes of the Union in the field of battle. It was never adopted as the official flag of "the Confederacy" in the way that, say, the Union Jack is the official flag of the United Kingdom.

It was some time after the American civil war when it began to be viewed as a symbol of "southern pride" and independence of spirit rather than literal political rebellion. The Dukes of Hazzard was about good ol' boys, and nothing to do with politics or slavery.

However, perceptions change, and the flag came to be associated more directly with the American civil war, and then with the causes of the war. Slavery featured strongly in the causes of the war, although there were other reasons too. It was a small step from that to it being seen as a symbol of "people who defended slavery" and from there to "white supremacy".

Words and symbols change their generally accepted meaning over time. Sometimes the same word or symbol can have unrelated or een contradictory meanings. As a Morris dancer, I sing traditional songs about "gay bombardiers" (meaning "light hearted and frivolous soldiers") and "pretty plough boys" (meaning "young and handsome plough boys") but I doubt any modern song writer would use gay or pretty in these ways now because most listeners would interpret them differently.

It is a sad thing when one group that is generally seen as "the bad guys" adopts a word or symbol and makes it their own. I understand that this has happened with "niggardly": a word that means "mean or ungenerous" and has absolutely no etymological link with "the N word."

There were some high profile cases of people apparently genuinely misunderstanding it because of the similarity in sound. Then white supremacists caught on and started to use it artificially (e.g. saying sniggeringly to a black waitress, "Don't be niggardly with the coffee") and now some companies and organisations recommend not using the word at all, even with its original meaning in an appropriate context.
 

Frasier Buddolph

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The confederate flag is not something Black people in the US have ever been comfortable with. For a long time, it was treated as simply an emblem of the South by most people here. White people that is. Now it's pretty much exclusively a symbol of idiot rabbles like the one that turned stomachs world wide last Wednesday. One would think the stupid fuckers would get tired of losing the Civil War, and find something productive to do.
Quite a few years ago, there was a news story about an African American who had painted the confederate battle flag on his truck. Naturally, he got a lot of push-back from his community, but I thought his explanation was reasonable. His rationale was that by appropriating the symbol, African Americans could destroy its power to wound and deprive the bigots of a weapon to use against them. Sadly, the idea never took hold.
 

Lobeydosser

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Technically, you are right. It was the battle flag — easily distinguished from the stars and stripes of the Union in the field of battle. It was never adopted as the official flag of "the Confederacy" in the way that, say, the Union Jack is the official flag of the United Kingdom.

It was some time after the American civil war when it began to be viewed as a symbol of "southern pride" and independence of spirit rather than literal political rebellion. The Dukes of Hazzard was about good ol' boys, and nothing to do with politics or slavery.

However, perceptions change, and the flag came to be associated more directly with the American civil war, and then with the causes of the war. Slavery featured strongly in the causes of the war, although there were other reasons too. It was a small step from that to it being seen as a symbol of "people who defended slavery" and from there to "white supremacy".

Words and symbols change their generally accepted meaning over time. Sometimes the same word or symbol can have unrelated or een contradictory meanings. As a Morris dancer, I sing traditional songs about "gay bombardiers" (meaning "light hearted and frivolous soldiers") and "pretty plough boys" (meaning "young and handsome plough boys") but I doubt any modern song writer would use gay or pretty in these ways now because most listeners would interpret them differently.

It is a sad thing when one group that is generally seen as "the bad guys" adopts a word or symbol and makes it their own. I understand that this has happened with "niggardly": a word that means "mean or ungenerous" and has absolutely no etymological link with "the N word."

There were some high profile cases of people apparently genuinely misunderstanding it because of the similarity in sound. Then white supremacists caught on and started to use it artificially (e.g. saying sniggeringly to a black waitress, "Don't be niggardly with the coffee") and now some companies and organisations recommend not using the word at all, even with its original meaning in an appropriate context.
It was the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia when under Lee and the naval jack of the Confederate navy - I have one on the wall of my hall alongside various Pirate flags, Soviet navy flag, and other naval themed flags. I did once several years ago have a visitor to my house who asked if I was a racist on it's account ( I live in the West of Scotland not the Deep South of the US). It felt rather like that episode of Father Ted - perhaps I should get a T shirt with "not a racist" on it ?
I was saddened that he didn't think I was a Pirate or the commander of a Soviet Missile destroyer - and I actually have a full remote control working model of one of those and through rather odd circumstances the jacket and hat to go with .
 

ChasFink

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When I was growing up on Long Island, New York in the 1960s and 1970s, I never saw the battle flag as only a symbol of the losing side of the Civil War, but as a general symbol of Southern pride. Perhaps my African American brothers and sisters felt differently - and considering the state of race relations in the South, I wouldn't be surprised; I'm sure "Southern pride" had a racist element for many prejudiced White people.

In my childhood there was still an atmosphere of reconciliation extended from the rest of the country to the former Confederate states, in much the same mood as Lincoln fostered immediately after the war. As those of us up north became more aware of the state of affairs in the South, so I think the demonization of the flag became stronger.

Nonetheless, I think it a stretch to consider all displays of the battle flag as indication of racist intentions, despite the general current attitude towards it.
 

Frasier Buddolph

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The South had a good post-war marketing team, it seems.
The fighting ended, but in many ways the war didn't. It's not uncommon to still encounter lingering resentment against "Yankees" when traveling through the Southern U.S.

After the ceremony at Appomattox a surrendering Rebel officer [Henry A. Wise] told Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain, "You may forgive us, but we won’t be forgiven. There is a rancor in our hearts which you little dream of. We hate you, sir."

I was taught in one of my college courses that, after the end of the war, many former Confederates resettled in the new territories opening up in the West. Now that I think about it, these are the same areas where Trumpism is strongest. Hmmm . . .
 
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A couple of things come to my mind, reading recent posts.
Firstly, when worried about "rebels" in the police consider that they are human, subject to the same pressures, same likes and dislikes, as anyone. The way they vote in private has nothing to do with how they behave in public. Or at least we hope. They must personally think on this: do their personal beliefs prevent them from performing the tasks that they are given? If they are strong believers in the "Stolen Votes" idea then once they act against the State, which technically employs them, then they can no longer be in the job. Standing to one side to let rioters past may seem an easier option to them but technically it's the same. You are not committing a crime but you are letting one be committed. I'm not au fait with any swearing in ceremony to US coppers, but I'm sure they 'swear' to uphold the law. In the military, they swear allegiance to The POTUS ... the political position and not the person holding the post. Which is why I think this is stronger than a 'civilian' doing a quasi-military job; the military are aware of what they are sworn to do over and above their personal politics. Military training reinforces this.
Secondly, the Battle Flag. Any symbol can be hijacked to be used by any group. It's just a symbol. It has a history, an origin, and appearances. From my own (UK) point of view it started as a nice symbol of defiance under a (winning) authority. Independence of spirit, if you will. Instead of the various State flags, it sort of 'covered' the Confederate States. Now, sadly, it's been co-opted from being the symbol of a losing side to the symbol of loud and proud defiance of ... well, everyone who isn't them! It invokes memories of the civil war, largely in those who a) cherry-pick the history they hear/see/read about that terrible time and b) want a flag that isn't the stars 'n' stripes, to unite under.
Thirdly, I don't call them "rebels without a cause" but "rebels without a clue". They're made up of people who want to belong, want to feel like they're 'special', that they're fighting not against the Deep State but an apparently invincible enemy. It makes them feel among the ranks of their ancestors who fought the British for freedom, fought the North for self-determination (among other things). In spirit, they are rudderless and need a cause to give themselves self-worth. The so-far ridiculed declaration of an invalid election has given them this. They honestly think that they are fighting for democracy against ... well ... the system.
Finally, as far as them going home, I'm sure there's plenty who've been slapped in the face by a heavy dose of reality. Sadly, there's still plenty more who will keep protesting and protesting and rioting ... because it gives them self-worth. They have a cause. However, they don't have a long-term plan. The one thing positive that has come about from the unthinkable happening is that it's given the legislators a wake-up call too; not only about giving so much power to one person, in the hope that they're a good person and loyal to the nation, but also the actual voting processes, the restrictions placed on their leader and question themselves how we got to this sorry mess. Stop the riots, perhaps, but address the issues arising from this situation. They can't think that their (political) world can go back to the way it was before 2016 and not remain at risk.
 

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Always seen it as "The Rebel Flag" as in "The South lives on."
I equate it with The Rebel Yell, and grey infantry uniforms.

Not neccessarily overtly racist, but hinting at it.
And certainly marking a distinction from Yankees.

But like @Yithian 's post above, I am not an American.

It's just my impression from thousands of miles away.

As it my impression that there is more chance of states ceding from the union over the next two years than there has been at any point since the end of the Civil War.

Texit?
Cascadia?

It could happen.
 

EnolaGaia

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... In the military, they swear allegiance to The POTUS ... the political position and not the person holding the post. ...
Not true ... The Oath of Enlistment states first and foremost:

I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same ...

... then secondarily:

I will obey the orders of the president of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

Ultimate allegiance is to the Constitution rather than any person or position. Obedience is due the chain of command, but not uniquely to the President regardless of intermediary authorities nor without qualification to law and regulations.
 

EnolaGaia

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The fighting ended, but in many ways the war didn't. It's not uncommon to still encounter lingering resentment against "Yankees" when traveling through the Southern U.S. ...
This was still occasionally evident as late as the 1950s, when the last Civil War veterans died off. This lingering resentment had more to do with what was (in some places and cases) rightfully seen as the literal occupation, disenfranchisement and exploitation of the southern states during the Reconstruction era rather than with losing the war itself. The rise of the original KKK and the Jim Crow (segregation) laws were direct extremist reactions to what were seen as Reconstruction excesses affecting all areas of the American South regardless of their prior reliance on slavery or their active support of the Confederate government and cause(s) during the war.

This inter-regional animosity began noticeably fading away after WW2, after which Confederate iconography was popularly diluted to connote being personally 'a rebel' rather than necessarily 'an adherent to the Confederacy'. (The same could be said about the Nazi chic popular among biker gangs in the Sixties and thereafter.) The socio-political connotations re-emerged almost immediately with regard to race relations as the civil rights movement got underway in earnest. Same symbols, but pivoted to symbolize raw modern prejudice rather than lingering historical bitterness ...
 

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I can't quite get to the mental point where the "rebel flag" belongs only to the bad guys.

With the Atlantic between me and reality, the order of association is:

1) The Dukes of Hazzard.
2) The Confederate Army.
3) Lynyrd Skynyrd with a dash of Pantera.

And No.2 is specifically the unifomed soldiers, not the Confederacy as a whole. I don't know why, but when I think of slavery, cotton fields, lynchings and the KKK, I find that the flag doesn't feature.

Hence, although I can see the problem with its entering the U.S. Capitol, it carries no psychological shock for me.

Merely noting. Not an American. Don't have to live through this mess.
As a lifelong Alabamian-I've been there, through the Civil Rights era and then thru the innocence of 70s Lynyrd Skynyrd & the notion that Jimmy Carter's "New South" had outgrown the old Klan/racist symbolism of the Confederate Battle Flag. People thought they were actually co-opting the symbol and making it mean something else. I never felt good about it myself, but I was willing to give my fellow fans of Southern Rock or the Duke boys a break regarding its use... for a while.
But sometime, in the 80s or early 90s, the symbol began to regain its old stink, and I no longer associated with those who flew it after that.
Believe me, nowadays in Alabama the people flying this flag aint flying it for music or a TV character. And it's common. Much more so than in the days of Skynyrd or Dukes of Hazard.
 

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Arnold Schwarzenegger has some powerful things to say about this episode. It's well worth watching his video. I'll leave it to others to post a link or whatever, if that's appropriate.
 

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As a lifelong Alabamian-I've been there, through the Civil Rights era and then thru the innocence of 70s Lynyrd Skynyrd & the notion that Jimmy Carter's "New South" had outgrown the old Klan/racist symbolism of the Confederate Battle Flag. People thought they were actually co-opting the symbol and making it mean something else. I never felt good about it myself, but I was willing to give my fellow fans of Southern Rock or the Duke boys a break regarding its use... for a while.
But sometime, in the 80s or early 90s, the symbol began to regain its old stink, and I no longer associated with those who flew it after that.
Believe me, nowadays in Alabama the people flying this flag aint flying it for music or a TV character. And it's common. Much more so than in the days of Skynyrd or Dukes of Hazard.
Been reading through various replies on the flag 'issue', and I must admit to me it's always had negative connotations and nothing else. I suspect (and reading your post seems to confirm this) that my impression of it is probably tied to my age, as I suspect I'm a fair bit younger than many other posters on here.

Unfortunately I don't have a great impression of those who fly the St George's flag either. I always raise an eyebrow if I see it flown outside a house and it's not the world cup. I know I'm admitting to a prejudice there. I don't have the same impression of the 'Union Jack'. It seems to be our more friendly/marketable flag, and plastered across various forms of produce and tourist tat accordingly.
 

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'QAnon Shaman' US Capital rioter on 'hunger strike' in jail 'demands organic food'

Has not eaten since he turned himself over to the FBI on Saturday - with his mum saying he "gets very sick" without organic food

Jacob Anthony Chansley, who goes by the name Jake Angeli, has not eaten since he turned himself over to the FBI on Saturday, according to his lawyer Gerald Williams.
1610544101132.png

The bastards. I will be starting a crowdfunding campaign to remedy the barbaric treatment of this patriot & hero & provide the organic food he so richly deserves. His mum is very concerned.
 

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Kondoru

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Jacob Anthony Chansley, who goes by the name Jake Angeli, has not eaten since he turned himself over to the FBI on Saturday, according to his lawyer Gerald Williams.
What kind of person turns themselves over to the FBI?
 
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