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Carl Sagan

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Anonymous

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I don't know much about this man and I'm under the impression that things should stay that way, but I've done the unthinkable and subjected myself to portions of his book, "The Demon-Haunted World." One of the excerts I selected was the start of the chapter, "The Dragon in My Garage." He put forth a hypothetical debate between a skeptic and true believer over the existence of an undetectable, metaphysical "dragon" in the believer's garage. I remember Sagan making a conclusive rhetorical statement like "What's the difference between a dragon that can't be proven to exist and no dragon?"

Fellow forteans: The answer is simple. You can LOVE "the dragon," you can REVERE the dragon, you can BE COMFORTED BY thinking about the dragon as a reality....maybe you can even use the dragon as a last resort to keep your disobedient young children out of the garage where they might encounter safety hazards of the physical nature Carl Sagan found to be so benign in comparison.

Sagan's "undesirable" dragon is no different than that mega-myth we call "Santa Claus." I adopted Sagan's irreverent attitude toward unnecessary old St. Nick when I was in fifth grade and was given a lot of dirty looks from adults and fellow children beyond the age of believing in Santa alike. I was also given multiple stern warnings from the former not to debunk the jolly old elf in front of younger children who would obviously be hurt by the premature death of their beloved Christmas Spirit. Fortunately, I soon MATURED in coming to see the wrongness of condemning the cherished belief of someone else when there is no obvious advantage to doing so (other than than the debunker's short term and mild pleasure at the expense of the believer's far more intense DISPLEASURE).

My point? "The dragon" can be a harmless bonus in the life of anyone who opens their heart to it. Much like art, music, literature, or any other "unnecessary and unhealthy" creation of the human imagination. Is there any reason to propose that we should turn our backs on these imaginative creations which bring pleasure to and enrich the lives of people who don't see fit to condemn them? I'm unaware of "proof" that we need such things to sustain human life, but shouldn't there be more to life than being alive? Oh, wait: there IS. And that's just how it's supposed to be.

Enough of your animosity, Carl. "The dragon" isn't dangerous. You're just MAKING BELIEVE it is, you big skeptic, you. Why not try showing humility and reverence toward a noun that isn't composed matter or energy? It might actually feel good.

- To quote the bumper sitcker: "Don't take life too seriously. No one gets out alive anyway.*"

*Is that so? Then what's with the ghost forum you just passed on your way here??? :D
 
Ken Blanchard said:
My point? "The dragon" can be a harmless bonus in the life of anyone who opens their heart to it. Much like art, music, literature, or any other "unnecessary and unhealthy" creation of the human imagination. Is there any reason to propose that we should turn our backs on these intangible realities which bring pleasure to and enrich the lives of people who don't see fit to condemn them?
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Maybe I was sleeping, but when was the last time you heard of anyone killing prostitutes because The Beach Boys or Beethoven 'told him' to do it? Or waging holy war in the name of Ebenezer Scrooge or Judge Dredd? Or gunning down doctors outside family planning clinics because Pablo Picasso's Guernica or Da Vinci's La Gioconda told him 'abortion is wrong'? That might have been Sagan's point. Another point he might have made, was about how, even in death, it appears that he's not allowed to express himself without being dissed for it by people who can't be bothered to read all the way through even a light piece like Demon-Haunted World and see all the parts of the argument before rushing off to the message boards to take the piss. :hmph:
 
Yeah, without reading it I can't say for sure, but it seems you read into it a little too literally.

Based on your description I thought he was making a metaphor about God. But I'm confused.
You don't believe in dragons, do you?
 
Re: Re: Carl Sagan: The Evil Dragonslayer

Zygon said:
when was the last time you heard of anyone killing prostitutes because The Beach Boys or Beethoven 'told him' to do it
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Was Charles Manson not 'told' to kill people by the Beatles (and specifically Helter Skelter)?
 
Re: Re: Re: Carl Sagan: The Evil Dragonslayer

Beany said:
Was Charles Manson not 'told' to kill people by the Beatles (and specifically Helter Skelter)?
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Oh. I was thinking of mentioning that. :D

Let's face it plenty of people claim to have been told to do things by voices from the telly, unlikely pop personalities, or soap stars and minor celebrities. We just never hear about that.

What about the guy that tried to shoot Reagan, because he thought it was what Jodie Foster wanted him to do?

There's just a better story in people being compulsed by God and it's a lot more socially acceptable. :(
 
Re: Re: Re: Carl Sagan: The Evil Dragonslayer

Beany said:
Was Charles Manson not 'told' to kill people by the Beatles (and specifically Helter Skelter)?
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Depends on which version of events you believe: the books written by all those cops who regarded Manson as a "Hippie personification of Evil", prompted to kill by a Beatles song, or Ed Sanders, who depicted Manson as a sad, manipulative little shitebag with a slight talent for playing mindgames with a few easily-led teenage girls from dysfunctional backgrounds (along with the implication that he may actually have sent his 'Family' out to kill ex-Fantastic Baggy-cum-record producer-cum-future Beach Boy Bruce Johnston -against whom he had a 'real' grudge- instead of 'randomly' as so often contended), who was found cowering like a whining snot-nosed 10 year-old in a cupboard under the kitchen sink when the cops finally found him.

I know which version I believe, especially since -SFAIK- Sanders -the only biographer who depicted him as pathetic rather than 'impressively evil'- is the only biographer Manson issued death threats against. The Helter Skelter thing then gets reduced to a simple and transparent attempt to deflect blame from himself.
 
Ken Blanchard said:
I don't know much about this man and I'm under the impression that things should stay that way, ......
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:imo:

The loss is all yours.
 
Ken Blanchard said:
I don't know much about this man and I'm under the impression that things should stay that way, but I've done the unthinkable and subjected myself to portions of his book, "The Demon-Haunted World." ]
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Ken, Carl Sagan was a brilliant astronomer and advocate of science and the human spirit. He sat on the Board of Directors of the SETI Institute and, despite being a devout sceptic, he has written several meditations on the nature of faith and intangible beliefs -- as his novel Contact (later made into a film starring Jodie Foster) illustrates so well.

He died a few years ago but you can direct feedback to the Carl Sagan Foundation or at the website carlsagan.com.

[edit: K removed from "sceptic"!]
 
Sagan was also a great fortean, imho.
The series he presented back in the eighties, "Cosmos" included many fortean issues, like the Betty and Barney Hill UFO incident. He was sceptical without a K, without being dismissive of the very idea.
 
Re: Re: Carl Sagan: The Evil Dragonslayer

Orbyn said:
[edit: K removed from "sceptic"!]
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Understand why given the FTMB's general suspicion of those who wear the 'skeptic' (with a 'k') label, but I'm pretty sure Sagan himself might have queried it given his intimate connection with the Skeptic magazine. Sagan's brand of skepticsm always struck me as being about rationality in the face of dogma and irrationality, and I'm not sure how that differs from Charles Fort's own attitude...
 
Re: Re: Re: Carl Sagan: The Evil Dragonslayer

Zygon said:
Understand why given the FTMB's general suspicion of those who wear the 'skeptic' (with a 'k') label, but I'm pretty sure Sagan himself might have queried it given his intimate connection with the Skeptic magazine. Sagan's brand of skepticsm always struck me as being about rationality in the face of dogma and irrationality, and I'm not sure how that differs from Charles Fort's own attitude...
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I agree ... but anything for peace, eh? ;)
 
Anonymous said:
Sagan was also a great fortean, imho.
...
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More of a hard scientist with an abiding curiosity into diversions beyond his regular field, I'd say. Carl got under the rivets of my christian heritage well before I'd even heard of Dawkins or Hitchens. The Demon Haunted World should be required reading in every school curriculum, imho. Sagan's scientific conviction didn't prevent him from understanding, even sympathising with those who held a strong dogmatic belief or flimsy hope in gods, demons and the paranormal. He had no time for the dogma and the blind beliefs themselves, but he had plenty of time for the people who laboured under the various delusions. I have a little known but much loved book of his lecture transcripts, and at the end of the text is a series of responses to questions he fielded after his lectures. He was patient with people and had a knack for relaying deep concepts through layman's terms without becomming patronising or condescending. My kind of scientist.
 
Sagan biopic in proposal stage. Who should be cast in the lead role?

http://uproxx.com/gammasquad/2015/08/carl-sagan-biopic/
[URL='http://uproxx.com/gammasquad/2015/08/carl-sagan-biopic/']Warner Throws Millions And Millions Behind A Carl Sagan Biopic
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By Robo Panda • 08.18.15

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Getty Image


The next few years are shaping up to be a great time if you like geek icons. First, Leonard Nimoy’s family met their Kickstarter goals for a Spock documentary (Spockumentary?), then a documentary about Bill Nye broke Kickstarter records. Now, Warner has committed to biographical drama Sagan, about iconic astrophysicist Carl Sagan.

Although it’s just getting started (no director, writers, or actors announced yet), the Tracking Board reports Sagan’s widow, Ann Druyan, is already on board as a producer. Also producing will be Courtenay Valenti (Mad Max: Fury Road), Cate Adams, Lynda Obst (Interstellar, Contact), and Rachel Abarbanell. The most obvious pick is Obst, as she already worked with Sagan and Druyan to adapt Sagan’s book, Contact, for director Robert Zemeckis in 1997.

No release date has been set for Sagan, but we’re sure it’ll make millions and millions of dollars.
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Yeah I agree. Definitely Russell Crowe.
 
New Book Claims Carl Sagan Was an Ancient Astronaut Theorist Badgered by Government into Silence
10/6/2016

Yesterday a man named Donald L. Zygutis contacted me to try to interest me in his upcoming book The Sagan Conspiracy from New Page Books. The title, to be published in November, argues that Carl Sagan was secretly a believer in the ancient astronaut theory and that the Pentagon and NASA conspired to suppress Sagan’s ancient astronaut research and use him as an anti-ancient-astronaut propagandist. Here is part of the bookdescription:

But how many Carl Sagan fans know that while the renowned scientist was at Stanford University, he produced a controversial paper, funded by a NASA research grant, that concludes ancient alien intervention may have sparked human civilization? Author Donald Zygutis lays out a compelling case that points to a cover-up by the Pentagon and NASA, who may have buried it soon after it was written. How significant is the Stanford Paper? The answer may lie in another question: How would a science-backed theory and search strategy to guide the discovery of alien artifacts among our own ancient civilizations impact the worldwide institutions of government, religion, and culture?

Recently rediscovered by the author, Sagan’s lost Stanford paper is the central theme ofThe Sagan Conspiracy. Groundbreaking research and paradigm-changing material challenges conventional thinking about the People’s Scientist—and maybe even the origins of human society. Sagan even conceived of the likelihood that the ancient Sumerian civilization had been visited and influenced by beings from other worlds as evidenced by ancient manuscripts, among other artifacts.

I asked the author to have the publisher send me a review copy, and we will see whether they do. However, I am skeptical that the author can make a case for a government cover-up since the evidence in the public record argues quite forcefully against the claim. ...

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/n...-theorist-badgered-by-government-into-silence
 
Robert Temple who wrote The Sirius Mystery about aliens kickstarting civilization, claimed this NASA scientist was badgering him into silence. I've seen it hinted that this was actually Sagan.
 
I remember reading somewhere that Carl Sagan was into ancient astronaut and ancient alien stuff until the early 70s. It's out there on the internet somewhere.
 
ramonmercado said:
New Book Claims Carl Sagan Was an Ancient Astronaut Theorist Badgered by Government into Silence
10/6/2016

Yesterday a man named Donald L. Zygutis contacted me to try to interest me in his upcoming book The Sagan Conspiracy from New Page Books. The title, to be published in November, argues that Carl Sagan was secretly a believer in the ancient astronaut theory and that the Pentagon and NASA conspired to suppress Sagan’s ancient astronaut research and use him as an anti-ancient-astronaut propagandist. Here is part of the bookdescription:

But how many Carl Sagan fans know that while the renowned scientist was at Stanford University, he produced a controversial paper, funded by a NASA research grant, that concludes ancient alien intervention may have sparked human civilization? Author Donald Zygutis lays out a compelling case that points to a cover-up by the Pentagon and NASA, who may have buried it soon after it was written. How significant is the Stanford Paper? The answer may lie in another question: How would a science-backed theory and search strategy to guide the discovery of alien artifacts among our own ancient civilizations impact the worldwide institutions of government, religion, and culture?

Recently rediscovered by the author, Sagan’s lost Stanford paper is the central theme ofThe Sagan Conspiracy. Groundbreaking research and paradigm-changing material challenges conventional thinking about the People’s Scientist—and maybe even the origins of human society. Sagan even conceived of the likelihood that the ancient Sumerian civilization had been visited and influenced by beings from other worlds as evidenced by ancient manuscripts, among other artifacts.

I asked the author to have the publisher send me a review copy, and we will see whether they do. However, I am skeptical that the author can make a case for a government cover-up since the evidence in the public record argues quite forcefully against the claim. ...

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/n...-theorist-badgered-by-government-into-silence
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So they took Shklovski and Sagan's speculation and made a book about it? I beleive Sagan later decided it was very unlikely.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_astronauts#Shklovski_and_Sagan
 
Vardoger said:
I remember reading somewhere that Carl Sagan was into ancient astronaut and ancient alien stuff until the early 70s. It's out there on the internet somewhere.
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I seem to dimly recall this too (although my memory is not so good).
 
Andrew Garfield to play Carl Sagan in an upcoming movie.

Andrew Garfield, Daisy Edgar-Jones Playing Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan in Sebastián Lelio’s ‘Voyagers’ for FilmNation Entertainment​



Sebastián Lelio, the Oscar-winning auteur behind “A Fantastic Woman,” will direct Andrew Garfield and Daisy Edgar-Jones in “Voyagers,” the story of the romantic relationship between astronomer and “Contact” author Carl Sagan and documentary producer and director Ann Druyan.
The feature is produced by Ben Browning for FilmNation Entertainment, Lynda Obst, who guided “Contact” to the big screen, and Druyan herself. FilmNation Entertainment is set to launch global sales at the upcoming Cannes Market
“Voyagers” unfolds in 1977 as NASA prepared to launch humanity’s first interstellar probes. A team led by Sagan sets out to create a message to accompany them, known as the Golden Record, which included music and images, for possible alien civilizations. But what starts out as a race-against-the-clock mission blossoms into a love story between Sagan and Druyan. FilmNation Entertianment paired Druyan, who married Sagan in 1981, with screenwriters Lelio and Jessica Goldberg. They then wrote the original screenplay based on interviews with Druyan and many others who worked on the Golden Record project.
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https://variety.com/2023/film/news/...s-filmnation-entertainment-cannes-1235604419/
 
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