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Charles Manson

A good (and interesting) documentary featuring interviews with many surviving members of people involved with Manson at the time of the murders. Doesn't subscribe to the Bugliosi/Helter Skelter line and looks at other reasons why so many lives were taken in 1969 by 'Family' members.
Also includes many phone conversations with Manson himself in his final years.

Charles Manson: The Final Word (2017) | Full Movie | Rob Zombie | Charles Manson, Bobby Beausoleil​

An explosive documentary that will change the conversation about Charles Manson and the notorious Manson Murders. Director James Buddy Day spent a year interviewing Manson by phone from his cell in California State Prison. The feature documentary reveals never before heard details that unveil the true story and motives behind the grisly murder spree. You will hear shocking new details, never before seen materials and digitally restored audio recordings from the original investigation to reconstruct the path of events that led to the brutal murders of movie star Sharon Tate and four of her friends in 1969. The doc will include exclusive interviews with the Manson Family that have been in hiding since the early seventies, the prosecutor and defense attorney involved in the case and many more but the most riveting elements come from Manson himself through never before seen pictures, documents, artwork, writings and recordings from inside California State Prison. Recordings that include eerie conversations about his childhood, modern society, justice and his decades behind bars. Recordings that will help you get to know the man they simply call, “Charlie”.

Written and Directed by James Buddy Day Narrated by Rob Zombie

 
I listened to a really interesting podcast once that postulated that Charlie actually had a lot less power over "the family" than is assumed. It pointed to a lot of evidence that the female members actually had a lot of power. That they had a lot of influence over Charlie and were equal to him, if not exercising power over him.

Which really gave a different perspective.

Pretty much everything we "know" about Manson and the family comes from Bugilosi's book...which a lot of folk now consider to be not accurate.
 
Rosebud said:
The problem is, a life sentence often doesn't mean Life, it means a fixed tariff. Colin Pitchfork is currently out and about in Bristol, browsing shops and enjoying his lunch, prior to release. He is 57, which is not old - let's hope he doesn't attack anyone else.

http://www.hinckleytimes.net/news/local-news/killer-colin-pitchfork-seen-shopping-13910091

His victims, Lynda Mann and Dawn Ashworth, both aged 15, are gone forever. Why should he get freedom and a second chance?

I agree that Capital Punishment cannot be overturned, but he - and others like him - should be locked up for good.
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Colin Pitchfork is due to be released today.
BBC News -
Colin Pitchfork: Double child killer's release confirmed

He's not just walking out of the place, free as a bird. Like all lifers Pitchfork could be sent back to prison if he causes any concern -

A Ministry of Justice spokesperson said: "We are disappointed with this outcome given we felt there were grounds for the decision to be reconsidered, but respect the independent judge's decision.

"Our sympathies remain with the families of Lynda Mann and Dawn Ashworth but they can be reassured that Pitchfork will be subject to close probation supervision for life and faces an immediate return to prison if he fails to comply with his licence conditions.
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This is taken seriously. When Jeffrey Archer was released on licence from an open prison during his sentence for perjury stayed out late and drank alcohol at a party.
He was bounced to a higher-security institution for a few weeks.
 
escargot said:
Colin Pitchfork is due to be released today.
BBC News -
Colin Pitchfork: Double child killer's release confirmed

He's not just walking out of the place, free as a bird. Like all lifers Pitchfork could be sent back to prison if he causes any concern -



This is taken seriously. When Jeffrey Archer was released on licence from an open prison during his sentence for perjury stayed out late and drank alcohol at a party.
He was bounced to a higher-security institution for a few weeks.
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“Over 30 killers killed again after being freed from prison between 2000/1 and 2010/11, statistics show.

Figures released by the Home Office show 29 people with homicide convictions went on to commit murder and six went on to commit manslaughter.

Of those 29 murderers, 13 previously committed murder and 16 manslaughter.

The government says it does all it can to protect the public from offenders "but sadly risk can never be eliminated entirely".”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16638227

maximus otter
 
maximus otter said:
“Over 30 killers killed again after being freed from prison between 2000/1 and 2010/11, statistics show.

Figures released by the Home Office show 29 people with homicide convictions went on to commit murder and six went on to commit manslaughter.

Of those 29 murderers, 13 previously committed murder and 16 manslaughter.

The government says it does all it can to protect the public from offenders "but sadly risk can never be eliminated entirely".”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16638227

maximus otter
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And one of the ironies (I think that's the right word) of the Pitchfork case is that, if he were found guilty in 2021 of the crimes he was originally found guilty of, he would now receive a whole-life tariff. Which seems to make his release even more absurd. I'm not confident this is going to have a good ending.
 
cycleboy2 said:
And one of the ironies (I think that's the right word) of the Pitchfork case is that, if he were found guilty in 2021 of the crimes he was originally found guilty of, he would now receive a whole-life tariff. Which seems to make his release even more absurd. I'm not confident this is going to have a good ending.
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He will be back in prison if he so much as looks funny at anyone.
 
escargot said:
He will be back in prison if he so much as looks funny at anyone.
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"...serial rapist Joseph McCann who carried out a string of attacks on victims aged 11 to 71 after being released from prison.

An MoJ probe found “unstable” and inexperienced probation staff missed nine chances to recall him for breaking licence conditions.

McCann got 33 life sentences for the rampage in 2019."

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/furious-victims-families-demand-change-24212136

"A probation officer admitted he should have called the police after finding out the convicted murderer he was managing was stalking a mum-of-six days before he killed her.

Andrew Victor, working for Nottinghamshire Probation at the time, did not notify the police or his manager when he found out the offender was following his ex-partner to work.

Simon Mellors, 56, of North Sherwood Street, was released back into the community on licence after beating and strangling to death his previous partner in 1999.

The conditions of his licence meant he had to divulge his past conviction to any future partners and any worrying behaviour could have meant a recall to prison."

https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/nottingham-news/killer-murdered-mum-after-probation-4936631

Etc.

maximus otter
 
Anyone read Quentin Tarantino's novelisation of Once Upon a Time in Hollywood? I've just finished it, with all its longwinded diversions, but what it doesn't clear up is what would have happened if the Manson murders had been foiled, which appears to be the point of the book, but isn't.

Manson and his Family are characters in the book, but they're just dropped before the last chapters. Were they arrested or what? Sharon Tate survives and... what? She went on to more Dean Martin comedies? Roman Polanski didn't ruin his career in Hollywood ten years later? Seems there's a lot of plates left spinning by the last page. Makes me think more than ever QT didn't think this through.
 
WeeScottishLassie said:
I watched a documentary called born to kill about him and I have to admit that I really liked a couple of his songs.

It feels a bit tasteless to do so but one in particular was really hypnotic and sexy.
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Paul Watkins and Brooks Poston who both testified against Manson, played in the band 'Desert Sun' for a few years after.
 
On channel 4 catch up there is a film called Charlie Says.

It flipped between the 3 girls in prison and when one of the girls joined his group and up to the killing.

I thought it was very good.

I'm not sure how close it was to the truth but it certainly showed how alluring and tempting it could have been to join a group like his.

All the flowery language and acceptance and especially if you are feeling lost in life and don't feel you fit in and finding a group you can connect with.

It was very erotic in places too and quite an intense watch. I had to pause it several times to let it all sink as it was quite overwhelming but well worth watching.
 
WeeScottishLassie said:
On channel 4 catch up there is a film called Charlie Says.

It flipped between the 3 girls in prison and when one of the girls joined his group and up to the killing.

I thought it was very good.

I'm not sure how close it was to the truth but it certainly showed how alluring and tempting it could have been to join a group like his.

All the flowery language and acceptance.

It was very erotic in places too and quite an intense watch. I had to pause it several times to let it all sink as it was quite overwhelming but well worth watching.
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Not seen that. I tend not to watch the fictional stuff though to be honest. Have you seen the Robert Hendrickson documentary from 1973?
 
Floyd1 said:
Paul Watkins and Brooks Poston who both testified against Manson, played in the band 'Desert Sun' for a few years after.
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Clem Grogan plays in a band around northern California although apparently he plays down his notoriety should anyone put two and two together.

Here he is onstage (with the green guitar):

 
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Lord Lucan said:
Clem Grogan plays in a band around northern California although apparently he plays down his notorioty should anyone put two and two together.

Here he is onstage (with the green guitar):

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Ah yes, I did know that, but thanks for reminding me. I can't understand why he was ever let out, certainly not as early as '85- considering he had such a big hand in killing Shea.
 
Lord Lucan said:
A good (and interesting) documentary featuring interviews with many surviving members of people involved with Manson at the time of the murders. Doesn't subscribe to the Bugliosi/Helter Skelter line and looks at other reasons why so many lives were taken in 1969 by 'Family' members.
Also includes many phone conversations with Manson himself in his final years.

Charles Manson: The Final Word (2017) | Full Movie | Rob Zombie | Charles Manson, Bobby Beausoleil​

An explosive documentary that will change the conversation about Charles Manson and the notorious Manson Murders. Director James Buddy Day spent a year interviewing Manson by phone from his cell in California State Prison. The feature documentary reveals never before heard details that unveil the true story and motives behind the grisly murder spree. You will hear shocking new details, never before seen materials and digitally restored audio recordings from the original investigation to reconstruct the path of events that led to the brutal murders of movie star Sharon Tate and four of her friends in 1969. The doc will include exclusive interviews with the Manson Family that have been in hiding since the early seventies, the prosecutor and defense attorney involved in the case and many more but the most riveting elements come from Manson himself through never before seen pictures, documents, artwork, writings and recordings from inside California State Prison. Recordings that include eerie conversations about his childhood, modern society, justice and his decades behind bars. Recordings that will help you get to know the man they simply call, “Charlie”.

Written and Directed by James Buddy Day Narrated by Rob Zombie

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There's a mistake here. At 119.50, the narrator says the raids at Barker/Myers took place on August 12th 1969. They were actually on the 10th and 12th October 1969.
 
Newt said:
Has anyone else read Chaos: Charles Manson, the CIA and the Secret History of the Sixties by Tom O'Neill?
If you did, what did you think of it?

I found some of the new evidence to be quite extraordinary. The story of Manson's parole officer is particularly fascinating, and indicative of strange connections behind the scenes.

Also it was great to have some evidence that was completely new to me, properly researched and properly referenced. Although at some points I found it all turned into Alphabet Soup and I couldn't follow the complex chains of reasoning, those chains seem sound and supported by documentary evidence.

For anyone interested in the Manson thing (like me), this book has new stuff!!! Exclusive interviews, unique revelations!
It was great fun, and very thought provoking in regard to the sheer strangeness of the 60s..
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Is the 'Chaos' book along the same lines/theories as 'Weird Scenes Inside the Canyon' by David McGowan?
 
Lord Lucan said:
I'm Facebook friends with David Oman who lives on Cielo Drive and believes his house is haunted by the spirits of Sharon Tate, Jay Sebring & others.
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Seems strange that the fourth house from the gate, and one that wasn't there at the time of the murders, would be the haunted one.
 
Lord Lucan said:
Somewhat, though great more complex in its theories.
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Right.
The character who has always fascinated me in all this is Garretson. First he denied hearing anything, then years later said he actually did hear or even see part of the murders happening. Parent, a guy he had only met once before, turns up at 11.45pm (unannounced)? - Some people say that Parent was actually known to the family and that Garretson was friends with Patricia Krenwinkle. I think he'd shared a flat with her at some point- she used a different name then. Apparently, Parent was a known burglar and the clock radio he was trying to sell was probably
stolen. I wonder if Garretson saw the murders happening, recognised Patricia and hid.
 
At 48.16 the chairman says that Watson hung Tate while she was still alive. In Nuel Emmons' book 'Manson in his own words' Manson says that he returned to the scene of the murders in the early hours (when the others told him what they's done) and left 'clues' to confuse the investigation; for eg a pair of eyeglasses and a rope which he tied around the already dead Tate, and slung it over the beam.
 
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