• We have updated the guidelines regarding posting political content: please see the stickied thread on Website Issues.

The Wheel / Wheels: Invention; Early Usage(s)

(Transplanted from the Ogham thread)

One quick thought though - spindle whorls. Go back... how far? That's a fundamental thing - to make fibres into yarn into cloth so you're no longer just wearing animal skins. Would they pre-date wheels on things?

They appear in the neolithic of various areas. And yes, pre-wheel.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Interesting hypothesis, but falsifiable I think. The Aztecs had lots of disks but no wheels.

Aztec_calendar_%28Sunstone%29.png
 

Attachments

  • Aztec_calendar_(Sunstone).jpg
    Aztec_calendar_(Sunstone).jpg
    235.5 KB · Views: 16
Last edited by a moderator:
Amazing piece of sculpture.
 
schistdisk.jpg


"Mysterious Piece Of Sophisticated Technology Could Rewrite History – Scientists Are Not Sure What They Are Dealing With

http://www.messagetoeagle.com/myste...ure-what-they-are-dealing-with/#ixzz3xQX2xmPF

Researchers are still not sure what kind of extraordinary object they are dealing with…

This peculiar object created 5,000 years ago appears to be part of a component of an ancient unknown advanced mechanism.

In January 1936, a strange disk was unearthed at the plateau edge of North Saqqara, approximately 1.7 km north of Djoser’s Step Pyramid in Egypt

The discovery of the mysterious prehistoric artifact, that many considered as a device, was made in the so-called Mastaba of Sabu (Tomb 3111, c. 3100-3000 BC) by a famous, British Egyptologist Walter Bryan Emery (1902-1971).

Sabu was the son of Pharaoh Aneddzhiba (fifth ruler of the first dynasty of ancient Egypt) and a high official or administrator of a town or province possibly called “Star of the family of Horus”.

The burial chamber had no stairway and its superstructure was completely filled with sand and stone vessels, flint knives, arrows, few copper tools and the most interesting schist bowl in fragments.

The unearthed device named the Schist Disk, is approximately 61 cm in diameter (24 inches), one cm thick, and 10.6 cm (4.2 inches) in the center.

It was manufactured by unknown an means from this very fragile and delicate material requiring very tedious carving–the production of which would confound many craftsmen even today.

Now many important questions arise.

What was the original function of the device?

Scientists do not think the object is a wheel, because the wheel appeared in Egypt 1500 BC, during the 18th Dynasty.

If the Schist Disk is in fact a wheel it would mean ancient Egyptians possessed knowledge of the wheel about 3000 BC during the time of the first dynasty! This would require Egyptologists to re-write some history books.

If the Schist Disk is not a wheel, nor modeled after the wheel, what is it?

schistdisk2.jpg


Some scientists suggest that the fragile nature of such an intricately carved stone object greatly limits is practical usage and suggests a purely ornamental function, being of a religious or other such ritualistic purpose.

Of course, some believe that this subject served another purpose, just to be able to drive foot oil lamp.

However, critics of this theory argue that the three-blade ceremonial lamp hardly possible, because of the shape and curvature of its petals, which seems to suggest a function, not just decoration.

Did ancient Egyptians have technology far beyond the current?

There is one option that is even more challenging, namely that we are dealing with some kind of unknown advanced ancient technology. Is it possible ancient Egyptians had technology far beyond the current?

sabu01.jpg


Egyptologist Cyril Aldred reached the conclusion that, independently of what the object was used for or what it represented, its design was without a doubt, a copy of a previous, much older metallic object.

Why did the ancient Egyptians bother to design an object with such a complex structure more than 5,000 years ago?

sabu03.jpg


How could a culture who typically used chisels to shape rock have mastered a technique to work such a delicate material to this extraordinary level?

Why would ancient Egyptians invest the time and skills needed to create this object unless it served a very important, specific purpose?"

Further information"
http://www.strangehistory.net/2013/07/06/the-schist-disc-a-sceptic-speaks/

Not apparently listed by / debunked by...
http://www.badarchaeology.com

Recent video here exploring the possibility that the Sabu disk was a sort of plunger valve for drawing water up from a reservoir.
Impressed that the guy 3D printed a scale replica, but I'm far from convinced:

 
Recent video here exploring the possibility that the Sabu disk was a sort of plunger valve for drawing water up from a reservoir.
Impressed that the guy 3D printed a scale replica, but I'm far from convinced:

I agree with your reservations.
It looks like it’s making heavy weather of emptying the beaker.
 
schistdisk.jpg


"Mysterious Piece Of Sophisticated Technology Could Rewrite History – Scientists Are Not Sure What They Are Dealing With

http://www.messagetoeagle.com/myste...ure-what-they-are-dealing-with/#ixzz3xQX2xmPF

Researchers are still not sure what kind of extraordinary object they are dealing with…

This peculiar object created 5,000 years ago appears to be part of a component of an ancient unknown advanced mechanism.

In January 1936, a strange disk was unearthed at the plateau edge of North Saqqara, approximately 1.7 km north of Djoser’s Step Pyramid in Egypt

The discovery of the mysterious prehistoric artifact, that many considered as a device, was made in the so-called Mastaba of Sabu (Tomb 3111, c. 3100-3000 BC) by a famous, British Egyptologist Walter Bryan Emery (1902-1971).

Sabu was the son of Pharaoh Aneddzhiba (fifth ruler of the first dynasty of ancient Egypt) and a high official or administrator of a town or province possibly called “Star of the family of Horus”.

The burial chamber had no stairway and its superstructure was completely filled with sand and stone vessels, flint knives, arrows, few copper tools and the most interesting schist bowl in fragments.

The unearthed device named the Schist Disk, is approximately 61 cm in diameter (24 inches), one cm thick, and 10.6 cm (4.2 inches) in the center.

It was manufactured by unknown an means from this very fragile and delicate material requiring very tedious carving–the production of which would confound many craftsmen even today.

Now many important questions arise.

What was the original function of the device?

Scientists do not think the object is a wheel, because the wheel appeared in Egypt 1500 BC, during the 18th Dynasty.

If the Schist Disk is in fact a wheel it would mean ancient Egyptians possessed knowledge of the wheel about 3000 BC during the time of the first dynasty! This would require Egyptologists to re-write some history books.

If the Schist Disk is not a wheel, nor modeled after the wheel, what is it?

schistdisk2.jpg


Some scientists suggest that the fragile nature of such an intricately carved stone object greatly limits is practical usage and suggests a purely ornamental function, being of a religious or other such ritualistic purpose.

Of course, some believe that this subject served another purpose, just to be able to drive foot oil lamp.

However, critics of this theory argue that the three-blade ceremonial lamp hardly possible, because of the shape and curvature of its petals, which seems to suggest a function, not just decoration.

Did ancient Egyptians have technology far beyond the current?

There is one option that is even more challenging, namely that we are dealing with some kind of unknown advanced ancient technology. Is it possible ancient Egyptians had technology far beyond the current?

sabu01.jpg


Egyptologist Cyril Aldred reached the conclusion that, independently of what the object was used for or what it represented, its design was without a doubt, a copy of a previous, much older metallic object.

Why did the ancient Egyptians bother to design an object with such a complex structure more than 5,000 years ago?

sabu03.jpg


How could a culture who typically used chisels to shape rock have mastered a technique to work such a delicate material to this extraordinary level?

Why would ancient Egyptians invest the time and skills needed to create this object unless it served a very important, specific purpose?"

Further information"
http://www.strangehistory.net/2013/07/06/the-schist-disc-a-sceptic-speaks/

Not apparently listed by / debunked by...
http://www.badarchaeology.com

“Schist (/ʃɪst/ shist) is a medium-grained metamorphic rock showing pronounced schistosity. This means that the rock is composed of mineral grains easily seen with a low-power hand lens, oriented in such a way that the rock is easily split into thin flakes or plates.

Schist bedrock can pose a challenge for civil engineering because of its pronounced planes of weakness.

The word schist is derived ultimately from the Greek word σχίζειν (schízein), meaning "to split",which refers to the ease with which schists can be split along the plane in which the platy minerals lie.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schist

It’s like slate: not a material l’d choose for a hard industrial function such as a plunger.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schist

maximus otter
 
Recent video here exploring the possibility that the Sabu disk was a sort of plunger valve for drawing water up from a reservoir.
Impressed that the guy 3D printed a scale replica, but I'm far from convinced:

Doesn't seem very efficient, maybe if leather flaps were added to cover the holes on the upward motion it would work a lot better
 
“Schist (/ʃɪst/ shist) is a medium-grained metamorphic rock showing pronounced schistosity. This means that the rock is composed of mineral grains easily seen with a low-power hand lens, oriented in such a way that the rock is easily split into thin flakes or plates.

Schist bedrock can pose a challenge for civil engineering because of its pronounced planes of weakness.

The word schist is derived ultimately from the Greek word σχίζειν (schízein), meaning "to split",which refers to the ease with which schists can be split along the plane in which the platy minerals lie.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schist

It’s like slate: not a material l’d choose for a hard industrial function such as a plunger.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schist

maximus otter
Yes, it's not a good material to use. It's schist.
I'm amazed that it survived intact for so long.
 
Doesn't seem very efficient, maybe if leather flaps were added to cover the holes on the upward motion it would work a lot better
Yes. That would work.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Interesting hypothesis, but falsifiable I think. The Aztecs had lots of disks but no wheels.

Aztec_calendar_%28Sunstone%29.png
The Aztecs understood all about wheels, as evidenced by various wheeled toys in regional museums. What they didn't have were draught animals, so the concept of the wheel had little practical use.

More here, with illustrations, for anybody interested.

And something I grabbed off Wikimedia Commons, a wheeled figurine from the Remojadas culture of 1st millenium Veracruz (a pre-Aztec culture from the Gulf coast):
Remojadas_Wheeled_Figurine.jpg


(c) Madman, CC-BY-SA.
 
Last edited:
The Aztecs understood all about wheels, as evidenced by various wheeled toys in regional museums. What they didn't have were draught animals, so the concept of the wheel had little practical use.

More here, with illustrations, for anybody interested.

And something I grabbed off Wikimedia Commons, a wheeled figurine from the Remojadas culture of 1st millenium Veracruz (a pre-Aztec culture from the Gulf coast):
View attachment 60390

(c) Madman, CC-BY-SA.
Ah - a Time-Slip. . . it's Micky Mouse on wheels! :huh:
 
The Aztecs understood all about wheels, as evidenced by various wheeled toys in regional museums. What they didn't have were draught animals, so the concept of the wheel had little practical use.

More here, with illustrations, for anybody interested.

And something I grabbed off Wikimedia Commons, a wheeled figurine from the Remojadas culture of 1st millenium Veracruz (a pre-Aztec culture from the Gulf coast):
View attachment 60390

(c) Madman, CC-BY-SA.

Definite OOPART.
Some Aztec kid was playing with a wheeled Bambi thousands of years before Disney came up with the idea of a tear-jerker that would traumatise generations of children:

bambi.jpg
 
To be honest, it's just an assumption on the part of archaeologists that these artefacts are toys, probably because they resemble the wheeled Bambis (Bambies?) they had as kids. We don't really know what they used them for.
 
To be honest, it's just an assumption on the part of archaeologists that these artefacts are toys, probably because they resemble the wheeled Bambis (Bambies?) they had as kids. We don't really know what they used them for.

Fair enough. The biggest mystery though is why the South Americans never upscaled such wheeled devices into carts, chariots, wheelbarrows and such like.
 
The Aztecs understood all about wheels, as evidenced by various wheeled toys in regional museums. What they didn't have were draught animals, so the concept of the wheel had little practical use.

More here, with illustrations, for anybody interested.

And something I grabbed off Wikimedia Commons, a wheeled figurine from the Remojadas culture of 1st millenium Veracruz (a pre-Aztec culture from the Gulf coast):
View attachment 60390

(c) Madman, CC-BY-SA.
More seriously. . . I notice that it is marked-up as also being a whistle and made of clay.
That doesn't make much sense if it's on wheels ~ for a purpose.
My thoughts are that it would be more likely to be a
drinking vessel - on wheels, so that it can be passed around on a flat table-type surface. The whistle part of it - could just be a coincidence as this could be the filling hole/plus a mouth spout, as it is 7 inches high x by 8 inches long.
As an after-thought, maybe it could also have been some kind of '
death/sacrificial vessel' by which the victim or offering would drink from this a poisonous potion?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Fair enough. The biggest mystery though is why the South Americans never upscaled such wheeled devices into carts, chariots, wheelbarrows and such like.
Well, they didn't have any draught animals to pull chariots or carts - I don't know why they wouldn't come up with a trolley or wheelbarrow. The article I linked above suggests they had a plentiful labour supply, and an attitude of effort as sacrifice.
 
Fair enough. The biggest mystery though is why the South Americans never upscaled such wheeled devices into carts, chariots, wheelbarrows and such like.

There are several factors, which generally break down into two categories - ends and means. Technical innovations have to address or meet some objective which is important enough to motivate change and investment (in developing and using the innovation). Conversely, innovations that are conceivable but impracticable won't make it to tangible realization.

Phrased another way ... According to the old (European) proverb, "Necessity is the mother of invention." That's really only half the story. If your mode of living doesn't create the need you won't be driven to innovate. Creative thinking can only be transformed into innovations if the available resources support new ways of meeting the need.

Culture and environment reciprocally determine both the needs to be addressed and the prospects for addressing those needs in new ways.

As already noted, New World pre-Columbian cultures had no larger animals to widely use for transportation of cargo or people. No horse, no donkeys or mules, and no cattle ... The one limited exception pertained to the Andean cultures, who could use llamas as pack animals in their upland / mountain environment.

As a result, lowland New World cultures were quite localized, even in their most developed / imperial forms. The terrain and environs (e.g., jungles in some regions) would have been challenging for longer-distance transportation without developing roadway infrastructure. Cultures in the lowlands and along the coasts had the water (e.g., large rivers) to use as virtual roadways. Large-scale land transportation tech was simply a non-starter in the pre-Columbian New World.

It's no big mystery why knowledge of the wheel wasn't leveraged for transportation purposes. If anything, the big New World wheel-related mystery is why potter's wheels weren't invented and used.
 
The concept of wheels really can't have been too difficult. Round things roll downhill. The need for the wheel would depend on circumstances.

Humans are perfectly good draft animals of course.
 
There are several factors, which generally break down into two categories - ends and means. Technical innovations have to address or meet some objective which is important enough to motivate change and investment (in developing and using the innovation). Conversely, innovations that are conceivable but impracticable won't make it to tangible realization.

Phrased another way ... According to the old (European) proverb, "Necessity is the mother of invention." That's really only half the story. If your mode of living doesn't create the need you won't be driven to innovate. Creative thinking can only be transformed into innovations if the available resources support new ways of meeting the need.

Culture and environment reciprocally determine both the needs to be addressed and the prospects for addressing those needs in new ways.

As already noted, New World pre-Columbian cultures had no larger animals to widely use for transportation of cargo or people. No horse, no donkeys or mules, and no cattle ... The one limited exception pertained to the Andean cultures, who could use llamas as pack animals in their upland / mountain environment.

As a result, lowland New World cultures were quite localized, even in their most developed / imperial forms. The terrain and environs (e.g., jungles in some regions) would have been challenging for longer-distance transportation without developing roadway infrastructure. Cultures in the lowlands and along the coasts had the water (e.g., large rivers) to use as virtual roadways. Large-scale land transportation tech was simply a non-starter in the pre-Columbian New World.

It's no big mystery why knowledge of the wheel wasn't leveraged for transportation purposes. If anything, the big New World wheel-related mystery is why potter's wheels weren't invented and used.

I appreciate all that but, given that the Aztecs did some substantial building, I'm sure some form of wheelbarrow would have helped.
The ancient Chinese had no road network as such, but still came up with very practical wheelbarrows:

wheel.png
 
The ancient Chinese had no road network as such, but still came up with very practical wheelbarrows ...
The Chinese versions of a single-wheeled conveyance aren't clearly documented until the 2nd and 3rd century CE, though there are indirect literary references to what may have been a similar single-wheeled cart as far back as the late 1st century BCE. That's in China ...

If you want to ask who should have had wheelbarrows for centuries before the Columbian incursions into the Americas, you might want to consider the example of Europe itself. There's no evidence of wheelbarrows from ancient Greece or Rome. What we now call a wheelbarrow didn't appear before the late 12th / early 13th century, and it didn't become a widespread European implement until around the time Columbus found the New World:
The first wheelbarrows in medieval Europe appeared sometime between 1170 and 1250. ...

By the 13th century, the wheelbarrow proved useful in building construction, mining operations, and agriculture. However, going by surviving documents and illustrations the wheelbarrow remained a relative rarity until the 15th century. It also seemed to be limited to England, France, and the Low Countries. ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheelbarrow
 
Today's Quora features a discussion about the earliest wheel.
The Ljubljana Marshes wooden wheel, along with its axle, is rightly stated as the earliest known extant wheel, dating to around 3,130 BC.

wheel.png


Someone also posted a picture of a wheeled toy, possibly a ram, from Mesopotamia, bearing a remarkable resemblance to the Aztec "Bambi" above.

toy.png
 
This is the image in Sid's post:

wheel.png


wheel2.png


The roughly circular shape, with hints of partial spokes and a central hub, is located deep in a Ukrainian mine in the Donetsk region.
Given the ongoing war, it's unlikely to be seriously investigated any time soon. As the substrate is described as sandstone, it would be pretty easy for someone to score a shape into the surface, which makes me suspect a hoax. The fact that it's on the ceiling of a tunnel is strange, but the otherwise flat ceiling appears to have been smoothed by human hand. I am unsure if any natural process could produce such a regular shape. Could it be an old piece of mining equipment over which concretion has occurred?
 
The Chinese versions of a single-wheeled conveyance aren't clearly documented until the 2nd and 3rd century CE, though there are indirect literary references to what may have been a similar single-wheeled cart as far back as the late 1st century BCE. That's in China ...

If you want to ask who should have had wheelbarrows for centuries before the Columbian incursions into the Americas, you might want to consider the example of Europe itself. There's no evidence of wheelbarrows from ancient Greece or Rome. What we now call a wheelbarrow didn't appear before the late 12th / early 13th century, and it didn't become a widespread European implement until around the time Columbus found the New World:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheelbarrow
If you have a plentiful supply of slaves why do you need wheelbarrows?

I have helped build one or two rockeries in the past, the wheelbarrow was some use on a hard flat surface but getting it over any bumps or steep inclines was a pain. Moving over soft earth usually meant the wheel sank into the earth and any incline just caused the barrow to plough into it. Once off a paved level path it was easier to roll/heave the rocks into place. That was with rubber tyres.

Yes, my back still hurts.
 
... As the substrate is described as sandstone, it would be pretty easy for someone to score a shape into the surface, which makes me suspect a hoax. The fact that it's on the ceiling of a tunnel is strange, but the otherwise flat ceiling appears to have been smoothed by human hand. I am unsure if any natural process could produce such a regular shape. Could it be an old piece of mining equipment over which concretion has occurred?

One straightforward guess is that this is the residual circular bas-relief imprint (perhaps enhanced by concretion) of a mining prop (a post or jack commonly used to support mine roofs).
 
Back
Top