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CNN & UFO coverage.

Sure, why not. If given enough exposure the Disclosure project will be revealed for the bunk it is.
 
this is not the Disclosure project set up by Steven Greer in 2001. this one was just done on 12th nov this year and not by Steven greer. and they seemed to have a better lineup of witness
 
My apologies; I thought it was Steven "I can call spirits from the vasty deep"Greer again.

But we have already discussed this event in another thread:
here, toward the bottom of the page. One particular witness, James Penniston, seems to have consistently exaggerated his account over the years. I think this is probably a common failing even among so-called reliable witnesses.
 
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eburacum said:
My apologies; I thought it was Steven "Ican call spirits from the vasty deep"Greer again.

But we have already discussed this event in another thread:
here, toward the bottom of the page. One particular witness, James Penniston, seems to have consistently exaggerated his account over the years. I think this is probably a common failing even among so-called reliable witnesses.
That ok I know what you mean about that and as for Steven Greer well I have my thoughts on him and the disclosurer project which i cannot type here.
 
eburacum said:
Sure, why not. If given enough exposure the Disclosure project will be revealed for the bunk it is.

come on then, mr smugnuts, why is it bunk? i understand that you alone have all the answers to not only what ufos are but also to all the other mysteries of life, the universe and everything, so please put us all out of our misery.
 
If you are prepared to be polite, I am prepared to discuss the details of any particular Disclosure case.

However you should be aware that Greer is an idiot who tries to contact UFOs by shining torches at them. Needless to say that doesn't work.
 
yes, i'm prepared to be polite. why is greer "an idiot" [not itself a very polite term and hopefully incorrect given that he's a medical doctor]? why is shining torches at ufos such a stupid idea? how would you try to communicate with them? what do you know about the disclosure project and where do you have this information from?
 
J_Frank_Parnell said:
yes, i'm prepared to be polite. why is greer "an idiot" [not itself a very polite term and hopefully incorrect given that he's a medical doctor]?
Plenty of medical people are a few shillings short of a pound. Suggesting that being a medical doctor gives any authority in the UFO field is a fallacy, unfortunately.(Argument from Authority, and not even the right kind of authority.)
why is shining torches at ufos such a stupid idea? how would you try to communicate with them?
There has been zero contact with UFOs for more than sixty years- shining torches at them is futile. It's just what a kid might do. In fact I tried something very similar myself- when I was eleven. Didn't work.

what do you know about the disclosure project and where do you have this information from?
From their website and elsewhere; I am certainly not going to buy any of their products to perpetuate Greer's idiocy.
 
I think the Disclosure project is a great idea except that it is being hijacked by Greer so he can promote his own theories. I think he is disrespecting the witnesses by doing so. But hey life's never perfect, at least these compelling stories are getting some publicity.
 
eburacum said:
J_Frank_Parnell said:
yes, i'm prepared to be polite. why is greer "an idiot" [not itself a very polite term and hopefully incorrect given that he's a medical doctor]?
Plenty of medical people are a few shillings short of a pound. Suggesting that being a medical doctor gives any authority in the UFO field is a fallacy, unfortunately.(Argument from Authority, and not even the right kind of authority.)
why is shining torches at ufos such a stupid idea? how would you try to communicate with them?
There has been zero contact with UFOs for more than sixty years- shining torches at them is futile. It's just what a kid might do. In fact I tried something very similar myself- when I was eleven. Didn't work.

what do you know about the disclosure project and where do you have this information from?
From their website and elsewhere; I am certainly not going to buy any of their products to perpetuate Greer's idiocy.

1) Firstly, I am not equating being a medical doctor with being an authority on UFOs. Secondly, the need to attain enough qualifications before going on to do a multi-year medical degree usually means those that ultimately pass are not 'idiots', particularly given that the origin of the word idiot means to be lacking a professional skill.

2) Zero contact with UFOs is something of a moot point. Do you actually know that there has been no contact for a fact - if so how? Or are you just speculating? Also, there are cases of people signalling to UFO occupants and getting a response. A case in point being the Papua New Guinea incident where an Australian missionary and various children and teenagers waved to beings on board an unidentified craft who waved back. Or are all these people simply liars? Again, how do you know? Just because, as you claim, signalling to UFOs didn’t work for you means absolutely nothing other than it didn’t work for you. Were there UFOs actually present? Please elaborate.

3) I guess I must have missed that bit on the Disclosure Project website where it says it’s all a con. And where exactly is elsewhere?

To sum up, in your opinion there has been no contact. You do not actually know this for a fact. There is a difference. If you do know, please state quite clearly how you know. Can you state unequivocally that there has been no contact or do you, for whatever reason(s), simply think/believe/deduce that there has been no contact? How do you know for absolute certain that all the testimonies from all Disclosure Project participants are false or erroneous? I wager that you don’t know. It is merely your opinion.

For the record, I have no opinion one way or the other regarding the Disclosure Project. They exist and they make claims, very interesting claims, albeit claims. I would like to say just like your claims, although I tend to take the testimony of an Iranian Phantom jet pilot who tried to fire a missile at a UFO somewhat more seriously than someone who instead dismisses the whole subject as bunk on account of failing to contact a UFO themselves when they were a child. Or do you know for a fact that the pilot in question is lying and if so how do you know this?
 
The fact that Greer is a doctor doesn't excuse his idiocy, I'm afraid.

The Iranian pilot who tried to fire at a UFO was probably aiming at something very far away, a celestial object of some sort. Don't believe that a pilot can make such a mistake? Well, they can.
see here
http://www.ufonet.nl/nieuws/tornado/index2.html

a Russian Proton rocket, which had been used for the launch of a Gorizont satellite, burned up in the atmosphere over Western Europe at the time of the observations by the British pilots.
snip-
Pilots are trained airspace observers. How could they get the impression that they were observing an unidentified aircraft?
At 18:00 UTC the Tornado crews were flying in darkness. The so-called Uniform Daylight Period in the Netherlands had ended at 16:20 UTC on November 5, 1990. At 18:00 UTC, the moon had just risen a couple of degrees above the north-eastern horizon. Meteorological data show that there may have been a thin cloud layer just below a height of 9,000 feet, but little to none at higher altitudes [10]. Visibility was good. The Tornado crews of two (pilot & systems operator) saw a group of lights passing them that remained visible for a few minutes and that seemed to fly at a slightly higher altitude. Because it was dark, it was impossible to tell whether these lights were moving independently of each other or were fixed as part of an aircraft. The illusion that they were lights of an aircraft could however arise easily, because the lights were travelling at a seemingly small distance from each other, at identical speed and direction. There were also smoke trails that looked like contrails. Also, the positions of the lights were probably not changing much with respect to each other, which reinforced the illusion that the lights marked the outline of a solid object.

The human eye has the natural tendency to see points of light observed against a uniformly dark background as if they are interconnected [11][12], giving the illusion that they form a single entity. For this optical effect to have created such an illusion was almost inevitable. Besides, the brilliance of the lights in conjunction with such good visibility could create the impression that the lights were very much closer than was the case in reality. During their observations, the pilots did not notice anything that could have broken this illusion.

The pilots' expectations probably played a role as well. In the communications, we hear them speculating about which type of aircraft they are seeing. That is to say, they expected their observation to have been an aircraft. Pilots are trained to notice and observe aircraft, and this illuminated debris created the illusion of a passing plane with lights, as described above.

A re-entering and disintegrating satellite in darkness is a relatively rare event. In our opinion, the interpretation of the phenomenon by the pilots is not the result of inexpert observation. Their interpretation was caused by the occurrence of an exceptional event, limited visual information and an overly short time-period in which to come to a correct identification.
and there is more, in reference to this same event:

http://www.zip.com.au/%7Epsmith/pilot-ufos.html#first

Now, what can we make of these impressive testimonials? The satellite reentry was occurring right before their eyes, and these pilots made many, many perceptual and interpretative errors, including:
1. In FSR, the anonymous BA pilot (obviously D'Alton) recalls: "One of the lights . .. was brighter than the others, and appeared bigger, almost disklike." It was just as light, a piece of burning debris, and the "disk" interpretation was a mental pattern conjured up from previous experience, not from this actual apparition. Note that later, Good alters this comment to have the pilot unequivocally call it "a silver disc".
2. The main light "was followed closely by another three that seemed to be in a V formation," according to the pilot. Referring to a "formation" is an assumption of intelligent control. The pieces of flaming debris were scattered randomly in a group and stayed approximately in the same relative positions, but the pilots misinterpreted this to mean they were flying in formation.
3. FSR reports the pilot saying "I watched the objects intently as they moved across my field of view, right to left," but the objects' actual motion was left to right, as reported elsewhere correctly. Either the FSR writer, or the pilot, jumbled this key piece of information.
4. The pilot did not believe the apparition was a satellite re-entry because "I have seen a re-entry before and this was different." These re-entries are particularly spectacular because of the size of the object, and the pilot was speaking from an inadequate experience base here.
5. The RAF military pilots in the Tornadoes concluded that "the lights 'formated on the Tornadoes', which is the kind of thing a fighter pilot is trained to detect and avoid, not dispassionately contemplate. The lights, of course, never changed course, but the pilots who were surprised by them feared the worst.
6. The accompanying Tornado pilot was so convinced that they were on collision course with the lights that he "broke away" and took "violent evasive action". This move would be prudent in an unknown situation, but there's no need to believe that the perception of dead-on approach was really accurate. Since the flaming debris was tens of miles high, no real "collision course" ever existed, outside the mind of the pilot.
7. D'Alton in the National Enquirer is quoted as claiming " it made a sharp turn while flying at high speeds -- an impossible maneuver that would rip any man-made aircraft to bits. " Again, the actual object never made such a turn, and the pilot's over-interpretation of what the object MUST be experiencing was based on mistaken judgments of actual distance and motion.
8. After two minutes of flying straight, said D'Alton, ". . .it took a lightning-fast right-angle turn and zoomed out of sight." But we know that the actual observed object never made such a maneuver, but D'Alton remembered it clearly when trying to explain in his own mind how it disappeared so fast.
9. The newspaper account, quoted in Good's book, has D'Alton claiming that "ground radar couldn't pick it up, so it must have been travelling at phenomenal speed." Actually, the speed would have had nothing to do with radar failing to pick it up, but the actual distance -- which D'Alton misjudged, leading to subsequent erroneous interpretations -- did.
10. The Tornado pilots described the flaming debris as " two large round objects, each with five blue lights and several other white lights around the rim." Since they were used to seeing other structured vehicles with lights mounted on them, when they spotted this unusual apparition, that's the way they misperceived and remembered it.
11. "In Belgium, dozens reported a triangular object with three lights, flying slowly and soundlessly to the south-west," but these were separate fireball fragments at a great distance, which witnesses assumed were lights on some larger structure. Their slow angular rate was misinterpreted to be a genuine slow speed because their true distance was grossly underestimated.
12. "A British pilot . . . reported four objects flying in formation over the Ardennes hills in south Belgium." The pilot may have been over southern Belgium, but the objects he saw didn't have to be, they were hundreds of miles away. And despite his instinctive (and wrong) assumption the lights were "flying in formation", they were randomly-space fireball fragments.
13. Note that Good writes that "Jean-Jacques Velasco,. . . said an investigation would be launched," but Good saw the results of that investigation before his book went to press, and he neglected to tell his readers that Velasco proved the lights were from the satellite re-entry.
Such selective omissions make many such stories appear far stronger than they really are.
14. One Air France pilot told a radio interviewer: '. . . It couldn't have been a satellite (re-entry) because it was there for three or four minutes', but such reasoning is groundless since near-horizontal re-entriers can be seen for many minutes, especially from airplanes at high altitude. The pilot didn't know this, and rejected that explanation erroneously.
15. "In Italy, six airline pilots reported 'a mysterious and intense white light' south-east of Turin. Pilots also reported five white smoke trails nearby." They may have been near Turin when they saw the lights and assumed incorrectly they were 'nearby', but the lights were far, far away.
The re-entry of a Russian rocket is not exactly a celestial event, but it is a very high-altitude, distant, explained event which has given rise on this occasion to a wide variety of observations. Similar things happen all the time- perhaps every day.

All honest mistakes.
Some of the witnesses in the Disclosure Project have made honest mistakes of this sort; some may be delusional, and some, unfortunately, are liars. None have seen extraterrestrial craft.
 
A case in point being the Papua New Guinea incident where an Australian missionary and various children and teenagers waved to beings on board an unidentified craft who waved back.
Certainly a very high bit-rate of information transfer there. Our problems are solved.
 
eburacum your makng the skeptics case irrational. How would you know what they saw or what they didnt see? How would you know what was in the sky? The point is you dont. So you are in no position either way to make statements like that. By all means be skeptical but not at the expense of appearing to be irrational , arrogant and dishonest in your appraisal of other peoples UFO sightings.
 
As I said I am prepared to discuss individual cases; the Iran case is quite interesting, for instance, but basically the sighting involved two planes chasing something which they could not reach because it kept flying away from them, yet it still remained in approximately the same place for over an hour. On the face of it, an impossible situation.

That certainly suggests a celestial object to me. Jupiter, quite likely, as that was in the sky at the time; the second brightest point-like object in the sky. However we will never know, since the event happened in pre-revolutionary Iran, and there will be no further information from that source for the foreseeable future.
 
wowsah156 said:
eburacum your makng the skeptics case irrational. How would you know what they saw or what they didnt see? How would you know what was in the sky? The point is you dont. So you are in no position either way to make statements like that. By all means be skeptical but not at the expense of appearing to be irrational , arrogant and dishonest in your appraisal of other peoples UFO sightings.

well said, wowsah156.

and eburacum you still haven't answered my questions:

To sum up, in your opinion there has been no contact. You do not actually know this for a fact. There is a difference. If you do know, please state quite clearly how you know. Can you state unequivocally that there has been no contact or do you, for whatever reason(s), simply think/believe/deduce that there has been no contact?

well do you know or do you just think there has been no contact?

probably aiming at something very far away is not the same as knowing that he was or wasn't, which you don't actually know for certain, do you?

and what pre-revolutionary iranian source are you talking about? the pilot in question is one of the latest people to testify for the disclosure project (why i mentioned him) so he for one still seems to be around.

and finally, "None have seen extraterrestrial craft." how the F*CK are you in a position to know whether they have or haven't?
 
I can only say that you are entitled to your opinion, but you will wait all your life in vain for any meaniful disclosure because there is nothing of importance to disclose.

To quote the famous curse of Phillip Klass:
No matter how long you live, you will never know any more about UFOs than you know today. You will never know any more about what UFOs really are, or where they come from. You will never know any more about what the U.S. Government really knows about UFOs that you know today. As you lie on your own death-bed you will be as mystified about UFOs as you are today. And you will remember this curse.


There are no extraterrestials flying around in our skies; not one, none. That is why there has been no meaningful contact. But that doesn't mean there are no aliens at all. The universe is probably full of them. One day we may manage to contact real extraterrestrial intelligence; they might find our UFO beliefs mildly interesting and amusing, assuming they have anything resembling a sense of humour.
They might even say "Oh yes, UFOs; we get them too: everybody does. But no-one knows what they are."
 
eburacum like i said earlier , your posts are becoming really irrational now. And your not doing any favours for skeptics out there who could put up a much better debate than yourself. Sorry but saying "they dont exist" just doesnt cut it anymore in a multi-media 21st Century where people are seeing and filming sightings on a daily basis. And what qualifies you to say what it is , or what it is not? Your posts are just plain arrogance. A bit of humble pie would go a long way in these matters.
 
Well, bring on the credible sightings and evidence! There are plenty of fakes out there- don't be deceived by them. I can guarantee that the number of good fakes will increase as the availability of computer graphic technology increases worldwide. That proves nothing.
 
wowsah156 said:
eburacum like i said earlier , your posts are becoming really irrational now. And your not doing any favours for skeptics out there who could put up a much better debate than yourself. Sorry but saying "they dont exist" just doesnt cut it anymore in a multi-media 21st Century where people are seeing and filming sightings on a daily basis. And what qualifies you to say what it is , or what it is not? Your posts are just plain arrogance. A bit of humble pie would go a long way in these matters.

Again, well said Wowsah156.

And Eburacum, 1) what do you know of my opinion? and 2) why won't you answer my questions? Viz:

1) Do YOU actually KNOW for a fact that there has been no human/ufo contact?

(It's a simple yes or no answer and I'm not interested in what Klass or anyone else thinks. I want to know what YOU KNOW. Quoting somebody else means nothing as who is to say Klass isn't talking out of his ringpeice? Or is he infallible as well?)

2) If yes, HOW do you know?

Conjecture, belief, rational deduction, other people's opinions - that's all irrelevant. I want to know HOW YOU KNOW - if indeed you do know, which I wager you don't.

If you're going to make big sweeping statements then you should be able to back them up. Or retract them.

Come on, put up or shut up.
 
I know for sure; there are no aliens in Earth's skies.

I invite you to prove me wrong. Provide one case of real contact and let's rip it to shreds.

I am taking this position because I am fed up of sitting on the fence; after sixty one years since Roswell with no contact, no physical evidence, no landings on the White House lawn, it is time to say -Enough- let's face it. They are not there.
 
However, I do have an alternative and completely contradictory position on the UFO question; that is to say, yes, the aliens are here, and are responsible for some, few or many of the reports, but thy are demonstrably insane. They frighten honest citizens while refusing to make polite contact; they apparently have craft which can perform miraculous and physically impossible feats of navigation (including flying underground on occasion) yet also manage to crash on innumerable occasions (about a dozen reported crashes in 1947 alone). Their craft are invisible to radar on most occasions (although sometimes they seem to forget to turn the stealth device on, and they can be seen on radar plainly, especially if it is antiquated equipment or of limited range). Modern phased array radars cannot detect them.

And talking about forgetting things- they avoid contact and use radar stealth (intermittently) but they always forget to turn their lights off at night.

This displays a mindset so alien and illogical that they have obviously been driven mad by the long journeys between the stars. It may even be the case that they are a post-intelligent race, flying around in self-sufficient, self-repairing, semi-autonomous craft which they don’t really know how to operate. That is why they forget to turn the lights off.

This raises yet another point with respect to Greer; he imagines, in his fantasies about ‘exopolitics’, that the US Government or some other shadowy body has already made contact with the aliens, and hold the secret of free zero-point energy which would power the world and avoid the peak oil crash, not to mention eradicate global warming. I doubt that the government of any country could have meaningful contact with the post-intelligent occupants of the flying saucers- and if they did secretly hold the secret of ZPE, the Bush government wouldn’t be engaged in a pointless oil war.
 
Eburacum

I still do not see how you or anybody else can possible know for certain that ETs have or have not made contact with humans. It is an area of total speculation where the words "I know" are just cobblers and to utter them is to invoke nothing short of arrogance and subsequent ridicule. The universe is pretty large to say the least and what we know of physics is not the acme of our understanding (if it is, please inform all those universities and research institutes dotted around the planet so they can immediately stop wasting all that cash on futile pursuits). Thus, while we know more than we did, we still do not know everything and anyone who claims that we do is talking complete and utter turd. Who can say what a more advanced civilisation, if one does exist, would know?

I appreciate that you do not believe that ETs have made contact, which is completely understandable, although there is no way I can accept that you actually know. You don’t. It’s just your opinion, whether the result of wise reckoning or that of a total leap of faith. Either way, it’s just an opinion, unless, of course, you are not a mere mortal but some kind of all-knowing deity. Maybe you are, maybe you’re not. I don’t think so but I’ll let the atheists, theologians and possibly a good psychiatrist battle that one out.

If you want me to prove that ETs have made contact then you are barking completely up the wrong tree. Just because I am not an ardent sceptic does not mean I am therefore the complete antithesis. Both the ETH and the anti-ETH positions are yet to be proven. The latter is undoubtedly the hardest to prove as it will require a total mapping of the universe to substantiate that there are no possible civilisations out there capable of visiting this planet (cue the burden of proof being on the ETH camp, a very convenient get-out clause IMHO). Consequently, when you or anyone else says they know, I laugh and ponder the size of their ego.

Regarding the irrationality of apparent ET behaviour, I quite agree. If indeed UFOs are from another planet, time, dimension, parallel universe, the inner earth or whatever theory takes the individual’s fancy, they would certainly appear to be somewhat confused to say the least. But then that is surely all part of the mystery, the full answer to which I defy anyone to actually know, whether that is Dr Greer, a New Age West Coaster or someone dressed in a tiger suit. What I find more amazing is that the planet Venus, space debris or a weather balloon would act in such a manner. Swamp gas maybe, but I’m still not convinced.

Believing, deducing, theorising, rationalising, speculating – these are all very different things to actually knowing. You say that you know, but you still haven’t said how you know. I would be very intrigued to find out how you came upon this wisdom that has so far eluded so many of us that have pondered this enigma for so long, either on a professional or amateur basis. Also, you limit this idea of contact to the last 60 years. You’re not another one that thinks reports of strange aerial phenomena only go back to the late 1940s, are you? Or are you saying that they (ETs or whoever or whatever) made contact a long time ago and then decided that this place was so full of know-it-alls that they went somewhere else where they could get a decent conversation?

Come on, spill the beans. How do you know?
 
Contact with strange entities, goes back a lot further than the 1940s of course. It could be that the UFOs are just late 20th century versions, of a much older phenomenom. If they are actual entities, they don't have to be extraterrestrials, they could be John Keel's Ultraterrestials, somethings that have always shared the planet with us and are very powerful and tricky , and I noticed in a new UFO magazine this week an article about what the author calls cryptroterrestials (hidden non-human intelligences, that aren't necessarily more advanced than us), which seems to be a way of avoiding the term "fairies".

In some ways, something that's always been with us is slightly more credible than creatures that have trekked halfway across the galaxy, just to be enigmatic.
 
MsPix said:
Contact with strange entities, goes back a lot further than the 1940s of course. It could be that the UFOs are just late 20th century versions, of a much older phenomenom. If they are actual entities, they don't have to be extraterrestrials, they could be John Keel's Ultraterrestials, somethings that have always shared the planet with us and are very powerful and tricky , and I noticed in a new UFO magazine this week an article about what the author calls cryptroterrestials (hidden non-human intelligences, that aren't necessarily more advanced than us), which seems to be a way of avoiding the term "fairies".

In some ways, something that's always been with us is slightly more credible than creatures that have trekked halfway across the galaxy, just to be enigmatic.

well, if you believe icke [another subject entirely], these extraterrestrials have always been with us!
 
certainly, there is no reason to say all these apparent ets are from another planet. heck, although kevin ncclure would no doubt disagree, they could be nazis!
 
Is there any evidence that David Icke actually exists and isn't just a comedy character? ;)
 
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