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Pathological Or Compulsive Lying

In the case of people like the friend I described, the effect can sometimes be very subtle and not noticeable at first. Certainly when you look at my post it all looks like a bad movie, but remember we all discovered it over a period of months and years. When M. first came on the scene, we were bowled over by her charm in the beginning and it wasn't until later that we started realizing how unlikely it was that so many things could happen to one person--and if she'd had the glorious life she'd claimed, it had left very few traces on her present. With most people, you can see continuity with their pasts; I believe my bf when he says he raced sled dogs, for instance, because he has photos and clippings, and the stories he tells are consistent with what I know of his personality and his past. With M., there was a discontinuity; she seemed to reinvent herself every few years, once you put the pieces of the pattern together.

On a less spectacular level, I had a friend in high school who would tell me about the most amazing experiences she'd had, yet they always seemed to happen when I wasn't around, and when she was with other people I was not friendly with. One of the more amusing claims was that she'd gone to California (alone) for a week to stay with a family friend, and her dark hair had gone reddish-blonde in the meantime. She could produce no souvenirs or photos of this visit, and knowing her parents there was no way they'd just put her on a plane; if she went at all, they'd go with her, and they hadn't. I wondered for ages why she would bother making up all this crap, but her self-image was heavily invested in thinking of herself as the cool one, the sexy and irresistibly attractive one, and because her father was a doctor she felt herself to be socially above everyone else anyway. Thus, she needed US to believe that her parents would blithely ship her off to California alone for a sun&surf vacation, while she stayed at home in the meantime (they lived in a very rural area, so no chance of running into her on the street) and experimented with hair dyes. I had often seen her involve her mother in lies and I have no doubt that if I had said something in front of her, her mother would back her up. Her father OTOH would have laughed at her and told her off for telling stories, which was why the girl was so adamant that we not mention it in front of him.
 
It is strange when family members 'back up' the lying, on the face of it. However i think a lot of parents either have a lot of embarassment and dont want to show their kids up in front of their friends. its probably done to make sure the child doesnt lose mates or seem crazy - few parents would want people to think of their child in that way i suppose. Also some parents (the family of liars kind) have probably created that behaviour in the kid anyways and so its totally fine to them to behave that way.

The latter case scenario is, to my mind, quite creepy! I wonder why you'd want your own child to go about thinking its fine to lie, most parents would hate that! i suppose those families are so involved with the behaviour that is is normal and acceptable so they wouldnt even think of altering the behaviour anyway.

Leaferne thanks for pointing out the broader picture of your experience, it helps to get a better view on things for me. I think most people do start out with smaller lies to test the water, then it just grows and grows out of all proportion. I wonder if there is a pattern to their social life, ie get a new gang of friends, eventually its likely they'll be found out, so move on to new people/new area start afresh and hope you dont get found out again, and so on. It seems very likely to me, in fact it seems the only way the behaviour could be allowed to continue, as the other option when rumbled (if rumbled outright) would be to get help, but then that is assuming people are found out. i do have an acquaitance who had to deal with a compulsive liar, and it really was compulsive, not habitual. he and another friend actually confronted her, presented her with loads of conflicting stories in emails/texts etc and she eventually got help, because she realised that while they were angry they still wanted to be her friend because besides the lying she was a nice girl, and this made getting help seem worthwhile (she could keep her friends AND address the problem which seems much more of a benefit) rather than just having to move on and keep repeating history.
Not sure how things went with that, but last i heard progress was being made.
 
We had a compulsive liar for a lodger once. He started off with a biggie, then got bigger...he'd lost all his teeth because of x-ray exposure on an oil rig, he used the compensation from this to buy a bar in spain, he sold the bar when his wife tragically died in a car accident etc etc. All total mince.

He was always stony broke, and yet we used to get luxury car dealers phoning up, as he had been out for a test drive in some super flash car and was 'really really interested in buying'. Then he'd give them our home phone number!

We chucked him out after a couple of months.

As to how to deal with habitual (rather than compulsive) liars...if you suspect (or know) that you are being told a porky, wait till the end of the story then stare back at the person in question with as deadpan an expression as you can, for as long as you can hold the silence, all the while thinking very loudly 'you are lying to me, you are telling lies, you complete lying b...' It will show in your eyes, and is a non-aggressive way of pulling them up. Perhaps throw in a very non-committal 'Mmm..' Most people who still have a grip on reality and actually know when they are lying will find this uncomfortable, yet as you don't actually confront them, they can't retaliate with more lies. This has worked for me before anyway. They often avoid talking to you after that. Yay!

Bob
 
We had a compulsive liar for a lodger once. He started off with a biggie, then got bigger...he'd lost all his teeth because of x-ray exposure on an oil rig, he used the compensation from this to buy a bar in spain, he sold the bar when his wife tragically died in a car accident etc etc. All total mince.

He was always stony broke, and yet we used to get luxury car dealers phoning up, as he had been out for a test drive in some super flash car and was 'really really interested in buying'. Then he'd give them our home phone number!

We chucked him out after a couple of months.

As to how to deal with habitual (rather than compulsive) liars...if you suspect (or know) that you are being told a porky, wait till the end of the story then stare back at the person in question with as deadpan an expression as you can, for as long as you can hold the silence, all the while thinking very loudly 'you are lying to me, you are telling lies, you complete lying b...' It will show in your eyes, and is a non-aggressive way of pulling them up. Perhaps throw in a very non-committal 'Mmm..' Most people who still have a grip on reality and actually know when they are lying will find this uncomfortable, yet as you don't actually confront them, they can't retaliate with more lies. This has worked for me before anyway. They often avoid talking to you after that. Yay!

Bob
 
Good advice, Bob.

(In fact, so good he posted it twice! 8) )
 
When it wasn't lying...

I used to fear that I was a compulsive liar; I couldn't think why I said the things I was saying sometimes. However, turns out that the "lies" were forgotten memories -- some of them just as well forgotten (like my Mum wielding a knife and chasing me through the house when I was very young).

It is unnerving, however, to hear yourself make a statement but not know whether you are telling the truth until moments, months, or years later.
 
Hey minky, have you met this ex gf and experienced her first hand?? Just to make sure that he isn't making up the story to get extra attention and empathy from you?? It would be easy for a compulsive liar to make up a story about previous abuse from an compulsive liar. I know a girl, which fits all the compulsive components even to the extent of being raped numerous times, not good people at all.... :( :x
 
It is strange when family members 'back up' the lying, on the face of it. However i think a lot of parents either have a lot of embarassment and dont want to show their kids up in front of their friends. its probably done to make sure the child doesnt lose mates or seem crazy - few parents would want people to think of their child in that way i suppose. Also some parents (the family of liars kind) have probably created that behaviour in the kid anyways and so its totally fine to them to behave that way.
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I've thought about this and it occurred to me that my friend who didn't really go to California and her mother were alike in some ways. Because the husband/father was a doctor, they were both rather snobby and felt themselves to be above other people. The daughter was also an only child. I think if the daughter had been rumbled about, say, the trip to CA, she would tell the mother "Ha, I told Leaferne all that bullsh*t and she believed me, isn't Leaferne dumb! Stupid little hick nobody!" etc. and they'd have a laugh about it together. I'd seen her cover up other stories and behaviour in a similar fashion. The father/husband wasn't like that; while he was a bit impressed with himself for being a doctor too, he was also far more down to earth than the women in his family, although I wondered later why someone with medical training didn't spot the psychological abnormalities in his daughter (which I will write about one day, I promise!) unless he was in deep denial.
 
This thread reminds me of an old friend who seemed to possess a rather limitless capacity for spinning tall tales regarding himself and his family. He was a DJ for a local radio station (this at least was true, as I would sometimes hear him on the radio), and was quite possibly the single most self-important individual I have ever met.

He co-wrote ''I Think We're Alone Now'', by Tommy James and the Shondells (which would have made him quite the child prodigy, as he would have to have been roughly six or seven years old when the song was released), had participated in ''some jams'' with George Harrison, who'd demonstrated the proper way to play bass (amazing, as I don't think George Harrison ever picked up a bass in his life),
was told by members of the Holley family that they felt he was the reincarnation of Buddy Holly (the Holley's themselves were, and remain, hardcore baptists, not a group of folks particularly well-known for their belief in esoteric hindu/buddhist teachings),
had a long-distance ''thing'' going-on with the actress Kristy McNichol ( the quintessential all-american teen actress of the late 70's, who, after publicly coming-out and declaring herself a lesbian, promptly dropped off the face of the earth), and was always just about to break big nationally, as far as his radio career was concerned.

I lost contact with him a few years ago, and sometimes wonder whatever became of him. I fully expect to turn on the TV, and see that he's replaced Howard Stern as host of Stern's late-night talk show. NOT.

Here's to you, Frank, wherever you are. And give Kristy a peck on the cheek for me, willya?
 
tonyblair11 - nay i have not met this ex in person, but my b/f is the least attention seeking type, and also i know other people who have fallen foul of the girl. Also the things his family have told me (which arent things my b/f has told them) make the picture pretty clear! Of course i am basing this all on my judgement of people and their truthfulness, and it is possible that eight or nine people have lying/attention seeking problem and are directing at moi and that my hitherto ace and lovely boyfriend whom i share my life with are all fibbing but its a BIG possibly!! :D
Also its not something my b/f likes to talk about, and so that kinda puts the whole sympathy grabbing thing out of the window, its hard to explain when you havent met a person but game playing is just not him!

It is an interesting question though, and somehing i have never thought about really, but even having the suggestion doesnt make any alarm bells ring, soz to disappoint :blissed:
 
I love it when people get the details wrong, like the woman who told me she was related to "the German royal family", or the one (last name Hayworth) who claimed to be related to lovely Rita the movie star (birth name Margarita Carmen Cansino).

(and the aforementioned friend who said she went to California also said David Bowie wrote "Blue Jean" for her as well)
 
No, minky. I'm not dissapointed at all. Just analytical and paranoid. I hope you have a great relationship. :)
 
Elisheva - this is me being curious and I don't mean to impugn your reliability - but how do you know these are forgotten memories rather than false memories? Given that we know how easy false memories are to create and all. Did you spontaneously remember, did someone else tell you, is there independent evidence?

It is absolutely none of my business and if you don't want to discuss the topic it won't hurt my feelings none. I know I wouldn't want to talk to the world about my mom chasing after me with knife. I just think your process would be enlightening.

Returning to the topic of the parents of liars, I am personally familiar with two sorts, both of whom are likely to produce habitual liars.

The first is the parent who lies. This has been addressed here. We model ourselves on our parents, and if we see them routinely lying under certain circumstances we will naturally do so, too, and be offended and confused when we go into the outer world and find that such behavior isn't acceptable. A child who was raised to lie has the same choice we all do on hitting adulthood, whether we've been raised to lie, to tell the truth, to go into the family business, or to wear seatbelts. This is why it's important to be a positive rolemodel around children even when they're not your own. You're showing them their options.

The second kind is the parent who who does not reward honesty. What I mean is - in my family, if you screwed up you were expected to admit it. If, when tasked with breaking the window, you said: "I cannot tell a lie, I did it," you were commended for the admission, punished for breaking the window, and then docked your allowance till the window was paid for. If you broke the window and went right away to the owner of the window or a parent and said: "I just broke a window," punishment vanished - although you still had to work out a payment system for covering the cost of replacing the window, this being in the category of consequences of your actions. If, however, you were so dastardly as to break the window and try to cover up your culpability, lied when taxed with it, or (I don't think anyone in my family was ever this wicked) tried to throw the blame on someone else, all hell broke loose on discovery of your depraved and evil behavior. Breaking the window suddenly became a minor thing compared to your dishonesty in dealing with it. Under this system, you quickly got into the honesty habit. It saves a lot of trouble later.

But what if, on admitting to breaking the window, all hell broke loose anyway? I am familiar with parents like that - they don't give honesty credits, and the punishment is just the same regardless of whether you confess or are found out. Moreover, if you express opinions at variance with your parents, display interest in things they don't like or understand, or in general act as a normal individual rather than as an extension of their expectations, you get a guilt trip laid on you, as if wanting to paint your toenails black and your eyelids chartreuse like your best friend does was the equivalent of spitting in your mom's face. These parents may be scrupulously honest themselves, but they raise two-faced kids who are glib and accomplished liars, who leave the house in one outfit and arrive at school in another, who cheat rather than bring home a disappointing grade, and who have no moral scale in which to weigh their actions. They can't be trustworthy because they have no wiggle room in which to be imperfect. (For fictional exemplars, played for laughs but with strong undertones if you care to notice, cf the relationships between Lane and Mrs. Kim and Lorelei and Emily in the U.S. series *Gilmore Girls.*)

Are there others, or do these two parenting styles cover it, d'you think?

{Edit: Transposed some names.}
 
PeniG said:
Elisheva - this is me being curious and I don't mean to impugn your reliability - but how do you know these are forgotten memories rather than false memories? Given that we know how easy false memories are to create and all. Did you spontaneously remember, did someone else tell you, is there independent evidence?
Click to expand...

Some memories are spontaneous, some not. I do check such memories with a friend or a relative.

As to your descriptions of parents: very intriguing and certainly well thought out. Surely someone has done a formal study concerning the characteristics of the parents of compulsive liars. Anyone know?
 
This isn't a field I read journals in, so I'm not aware whether or not there are any such studies, Elisheva. My base here is almost entirely from experience and observation, i.e., anecdotal. You can't prove anything with anecdote, but you can get a good-enough-for-daily-life working theory going when the experiences are your own.

The only formal studies I've read about lying have been connected with memory research and the legal aspects of the testimony of children of various ages; and I did that, albeit pretty intensively, about ten years ago when researching a book (*Vikki Vanishes*) in which an 8-year-old habitual liar was the only person who knew what had happened to her kidnapped older sister. An additional dynamic was involved in that family - the designated Golden Child (older sister) vs. the Goat (younger sister), in which societal roles dictate who gets to behave well, regardless of personal preference. You see the same thing in classrooms. Once a child gets labeled as "bad," it becomes nearly impossible for him to behave well; while a child labeled as "good" will either get away with murder or be hamstrung in the execution of normal rebellious activities.

Anyway, there may well have been such a study since my period of research, but if so I am not aware of it. Although it's a field with obvious usefulness, the methodological problems strike me as huge, starting with the basic necessity of working with dishonest people. I shudder to think of the groundwork that would have to be laid before you could define your test group, whether habitual or compulsive, and your control group; and the unreliability of liars would make long-term studies even more of a nightmare than normal.
 
I wonder if its a co-incidence that two of the three compulsive/habitual liars I've come across have been people doing temp work. One worked in offices and the other was a bank nurse. They both made really outrageous claims about their lives. I guess you could explain it away that they didn't really work anywhere long enough to build up bonds with people and maybe used these stories as a substitute. Maybe they just thought they could get away with it because they'd never see the other people again.

The third liar was an alcoholic criminal who was so used to lying to cover his tracks that even when he had nothing to hide he'd still lie out of habit or fear of letting something out by mistake.
 
I have a small theory as to how some UL may start. Compulsive liars! We have one at my work, it seems i'm the one of the few who fully aware she talks absolute bollocks (I bothered to check up on some of what she was saying, all total nonsense). The thing is, what she says is believable. I don't want to give an example or it may be obvious to someone who it is. These people are so practiced at it they don't seem to know they are lying!

Additionally I have probably met three in my life, serious liars, not just people who exaggerate for dramatic effect, imagine how many of them live in the world, and combine that with the internet! (Possibly why some old UL s get recirculated?).

one compulive liar in a public role could spread a legend far...

Just a theory but I thought it worth suggesting :)
 
The 9/11 Survivor No-one Can Remember

The 9/11 survivor no one can remember

David Dunlap and Serge Kovaleski

Friday September 28, 2007

Tania Head's story, as shared over the years with reporters, students, friends and hundreds of visitors to ground zero, was a remarkable account of both life and death.

She had, she said, survived the terror attack on the World Trade Centre despite having been badly burned when the plane crashed into the upper floors of the south tower.

Crawling through the chaos and carnage on the 78th floor that morning, she said, she encountered a dying man who handed her his inscribed wedding ring, which she later returned to his widow.

Her own life was saved, she said, by a selfless volunteer who extinguished the flames on her burning clothes before she was helped down the stairs. It was a journey she said she had the strength to make because she kept thinking of a beautiful white dress she was to wear at her coming wedding to a man named Dave.

But later she would discover, she said, that Dave, her fiance, and in some versions her husband, had perished in the north tower.

Ms Head's account made her one of only 19 survivors who had been at or above the point of impact when the planes hit. But no part of her story, it turns out, has been verified.

The family and friends of the man to whom she claimed to be engaged say they have never heard of Tania Head and view the relationship she describes with the man, who did die in the north tower, as an impossibility.

A spokeswoman for Merrill Lynch, where she told people she worked at the time of the terror attack, said the company had no record of employing a Tania Head.

And few people, it seems, who embraced the immediacy and pain of her account ever asked the name of the man whose ring she had returned, or that of the hospital where she was treated, or the identities of the people she met in the south tower on the morning of 9/11.

"She never shared those details, and it was nothing we wanted to probe," said Alison Crowther, the mother of Welles Remy Crowther, a man who died on 9/11 and who is credited with rescuing a number of people from the south tower, including Ms Head by her own account.

In recent weeks the New York Times sought to interview Ms Head about her experiences on 9/11 but she cancelled three scheduled interviews, citing her privacy and emotional turmoil, and declined to provide details to corroborate her story. "I have done nothing illegal," she said.

She has retained a lawyer, Stephanie Furgang Adwar, to represent her.

No one has suggested that Ms Head did anything to profit financially from her position as an officer with the Survivors' Network, the non-profit group for which she helped to raise money. But the organisations to which she has been affiliated have also questioned her account.

For several weeks colleagues who said they respected the good work she had done among survivors have pressed her to come forward and clarify details. But they said they had been unable to persuade her or, in other cases, that she contradicted previous versions she had given.

The board of the Survivors' Network voted this week to remove her as president and as a director of the group, which supports those who escaped the terror that day.

Jefferson Crowther, Welles Crowther's father, said in an interview that he and his wife met Ms Head early last year.

"She explained that her clothes were on fire and that our son took a jacket and put out the flames.

"She told us that she said, 'Don't leave me,' and he replied, 'I won't. Don't worry. I'll get you down.'

"She seemed so heartfelt and genuine about what she said to us."

New York Times

Guardian Unlimited © Guardian News and Media Limited 2007
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I can understand the attractions of fame by association, with a celebrity say, but it's pretty sick to want to get huge amounts of sympathy by linking yourself to a tragedy like that. What motivates it? Is it a form of jealousy?
 
On a fairly related note, my neighbour is a lying arsehole.

Last year he broke up with his girlfriend (he said coz she cheated on him). We knew each other a bit then (living in the same block of units) and we got friendly. He, I, my hubby and our friend Chantelle used to spend almost every day together.
He used to talk about his Maloo (that's a nice ute for those who don't know) and how he didn't want to keep it here because of the neighbourhood (admittedly a didgy one) so he'd leave it at his farm in Camden.
he used to bitch about feeling old at 21 and how it was horrible that he would only ever get older and he wouldn't even have kids to confort him in old age coz of a motorcycle accident he'd had ages back that severed his sperm tubes. Apprently he had to go to the doc's every few months and get semen syringed out so it wouldn't rupture whatever it's stored in.

Then one night while drinking (the hubby was working) he confessed to me that he loved me. I loved him too, but just as a friend, and I told him so. He write me this flowerly love letter talking about how wonderful i was and how my personality brightened his day yada yada yada.

Anyway, long story short, I told Chantelle about it and she showed me an almost identical letter he'd given to HER. We stopped speaking to him. Soon, he was back with his old girlfriend (wlthough he insisted he wasn't, she was just picking up old cds). She got pregnant and when I mentioned the Maloo in conversation she looked at me like I was nuts and said he'd never owned a Maloo in his life.

He'd even lied about his age. He's only 19.

WTF!

Oh. And he doesn't own a farm :roll:
 
I wonder what really happened to Maloo? Did he have you around for dinner just after Maloo left for the farm?

Are you even sure hes a bloke?
 
So it's nothing to do with didgeridoos, then? I had visions of Lauren's neighbourhood being plagued by marauding gangs of unnecessarily-long-wind-instrument players...
 
It's certainly not me as my fellow astronauts will confirm I've never told a lie in my life. Not once during my career as a brain surgeon, detective and polar explorer have I ever told a lie.
 
WhistlingJack said:
So it's nothing to do with didgeridoos, then? I had visions of Lauren's neighbourhood being plagued by marauding gangs of unnecessarily-long-wind-instrument players...
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:lol: :laughing: :rofl: :splat:
 
9/11 My hubby & I,flying with British airways, were only 2 hours from New York, when the Pilot came over the radio & told us the whole of American US air space had been shut down.....to say we were surprised was an understatement!
 
The story about 'Paul' reminded me of a mate I had a few years ago, while at uni, who'll be known as 'P' for now.

We met P briefly on nights out and stuff around 2003-05. In my final year I began working at the students union, where P was a bar supervisor, so we became good mates. Within a week or two, he was permanent fixture in our 'crew' and was out on the lash with us constantly. All our other mates liked him etc, he was part of the group.

We knew - or thought we knew - that P hadn't lived in Huddersfield in his first year and commuted from Harrogate as "his girlfriend of 3years had died of cancer". We were obviously gutted to hear this, especially his detailed accounts of how he was there when she passed away, her father and he were still go friends etc.

Anyway, he started seeing this girl we knew and began slowly unravelling. Hygiene was first - he was a proper 'aftershave even during the day', copiuous amounts of gel in his hair, clean shaven sort of guy when we first met. Now, he stank on a regular basis, and we started seeing less of him. Stories began leaking, including his own brother (who by all accounts, was just as odd but lived down South) telling us off-handedly the cancer-suffering ex-bird never existed among disproving numerous other stories.

Some of P's stories were SO weird though, it was impossible to think why he'd made them up. First was being a black-belt in judo, which when doubted prompted him to judo-toss strangers in bars to try and convince us?! Then he was being flown to the USA to join up with a 'backyard wrestling' promotion who had 'had him scouted'?!

Anyway, this all culminated with him being suspended from work for stealing from the tills at the bar - and when I say stealing, we are talking rumoured £1,000's of pounds over a long duration. Thinking back, he had a really nasty gambling habit on the 'bandits' and at one poitn I saw a wad of £20 notes in his wallet that must've been well over a grand's worth. His bird dumped him, and he began spiralling out. Last we heard of him, he had a stripper for a girlfriend and his excuse for leaving nights out early were to go and see her (we then began getting his housemate to confirm that every night he came home alone!).

Finally, when we totally abandoned the guy for his weirdness, one mate of ours was still on good terms with him having been away during 'the weird stage'. We would get him to text P and dig for info on what he was up to these days...........he claimed to be managing a department store in York (with no retail experience and no uni degree as he flunked it) and was dating an air hostess who was also a topless model........nice to see he's keeping the lies up to this day!

Thing is, I think one day he'll crop up on America's Most Wanted as one of those serial killers who kill for wealth or profit (you know the type, pretend to be gay to go home with a rich businessman and after killing him, spend a weekend dressing in his suits, drinking from his mini-bar, using his credit cards etc)!
 
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