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Conceptualization -> Reality problem

mikelegs

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Jul 31, 2001
Messages
361
Does everyone have this problem? I think I'm creative, because I can conceptualize some very very interesting stuff (images, music, philosophies, etc), but then have a LOT of trouble translating them into reality. Images I can't do at all, due to complete lack of artistic talent in that respect. Music I can do to a degree, but usually bastardize my grand idea into something mundane. And philosophies/interesting lines of thought somehow fade and sway into something else before I can grasp the correct words to convey their meaning.

Now, I know you may be thinking, 'No mike_legs, you're just *slower* than the rest of us'. But where do the great original ideas come from? And what makes it so dang hard to first grasp and then realize such a fleeting notion? Is there a way to improve upon this skill, or are the originals actually flawed in some sense?

Is it to do with psychology, or is it a physical aspect? Or worse yet para-psychological or para-physical?
 
I think that's what makes a genius a genius. Some of us have really good ideas/music/art/whatever floating round in our heads, but only geniuses (sp?) can make them into reality.

My secret flair is art, not traditional art or anything like that, but I just fire up Photoshop and get going, and 9 times out of 10 the results are pleasing, not to anyone else, but for me. I suppose it's my outlet.

As to whether it's psychological or physical, I think (along the same likes of the Nature/Nurture thinking on whether people are born evil or not) it’s probably a combination of the both.

It’s a shame to think of all those revolutionary thoughts or ideas that the collective world possesses, and then promptly forget because they wonder what they're going to have for dinner :(
 
Having the brilliant idea in your head is a good way towards success. I work with plenty of professional artists who couldn't create something original if their lives depended on it even though they might be technically skilled.

Expecting to be able to produce tangible output from an idea in you mind is something that very few, lucky people are able to do naturally. The techniques of artistic pursuits still have to be learned and perfected, even by the gifted.
 
i wonder if anything is ever created in ur head can then be transferred wholesale to whatever media... i have certainly never thought of somthing and reproduced that thought. The real world just dont let u do it!..practicality get well in the way....best i can muster is a 'cor wow' concept and then a 'thing' that may be a million miles away from that idea, but grew from it, takeing into consideration the limitations of the media/ability/fashion...
 
In my experience (such as it is) the abilty to translate an idea into a bunch of words, or notes, or blobs of paint, or pixels that can make another person understand what it was you were feeling when you had the idea comes with practice.

I think Picasso used to point out to people who derided his abstract works that he had to lean to draw 'properly' before he could break the rules of perspective etc.
 
when you say you have problems acctualising your concepts do you mean you have prob's getting other people to see what you thought of, or do you have problems making what you thought of?


kinda like this post i wanted it to sound much differnet
and not so confused sounding or confusion causing like it does at the moment

cas:D
 
Technology can help anyone translate their ideas into sound or
images without the need for a steep learning curve. Improvising
on a keyboard can also be converted into traditional notation.

But you may need to whistle for performers and an audience.

The value we place on these things is an awkward question and
the best artists are not necessarily the best at selling what they
have done. The brave new world of the Internet has not created
a brave new world of curious listeners and readers.

Art will go on being made, regardless of demand but the status
of great artists in the past may be a hard act to follow. Any library
worm will be horribly aware of the vast quantity of music and
literature which is unperformed and unread. While audiences
are afraid of the unknown, the situation seems unlikely to improve.
:(
 
if anyone say the Hockney telly prog revealing the open secret that most 'artist' of the past realy didnt draw 'properly' or otherwise!....


It is the way of the artist to do what he/she feels they have to and most dont ever sell or make any money out of anyting they do!....
 
from casio: when you say you have problems acctualising your concepts do you mean you have prob's getting other people to see what you thought of, or do you have problems making what you thought of?

Hmm, I never really gave much thought to having other people see what I imagined. Let me give examples. I'm driving down the road and see an interesting scene, but my brain thinks of ways to really embellish it, creating something very kool (in my mind), but I cannot even attempt to draw it. Or I'm humming a tune and melodies and harmonies and percussion all join in, so I run and grab my guitar, but can only pick out a few single notes before the tune in my head is gone. Worse still is the string of logic that comes tightly together in my brain, then the pieces all fall apart before I can form the words to relate.
So to answer your question, it's primarily a matter of 'making real' what I imagined. If I could get better at it, then I can worry about other people. Every once in a great while I latch on, and it's a great feeling of personal accomplishment. Truthfully, I don't give a d*mn if other people see it my way or not. My motive is the satisfaction of a correct translation for myself. My thesis (and all these posts have been quite helpful), is simple... why is it so difficult to do?

Again, thanks all for your input. Anyone aware of methods they use for their own translations?
 
Remember that even history's greatest artists (of all types, for now let us consider Michaelangelo and De Vinci and crew) did not produce a masterpiece every time. Just think how may screwed up bits of paper there must have been in Picasso's waste paper basket! I would suggest that even for the greats the stuff they were pleased with was the exception rather than the norm. So my advice is to produce as much material as you can, and by the process of of learning (and shear luck!) a small amount of it could be very good.
 
dan hit the nail on the head it's practice that makes perfect all you'll have to do is practice more - i know it's easy to say but no-one's good at anything the first time they try it and they normaly give up way before they are really any good-



cas
 
One of the things I like about computer programming is that you can have a neat idea and then make some software that implements your idea exactly. Well, in theory anyway. That is, if you're good at it, and if you're not too ambitious.

However, explaining how it works to other people is quite another matter... that's why programmers tend to be so bad at writing documentation ;)

I've heard it said that programming is better than sex. I wouldn't go that far, but... sometimes I'm like in "the zone", that mythical period of peak performance, where I crank out heaps of code for hours. I get totally immersed in the ideas, as it were.

It's very similar to being gripped by an idea when writing prose, except prose can be much more mentally taxing, because it tends to be much tighter and richer than computer code. I usually write nonfiction and my ideas tend to be incredibly convoluted if I'm not careful - I guess I'm glad I took those compulsory touch-typing classes at school when I was 12, or I probably wouldn't be able to get my ideas down fast enough!
 
Wow! This is really great stuff, people. My mind runneth over, so to speak.

greenrd, I completely relate to 'the zone'. I was working on something completely unrelated to my assignments once for two and a half days pretty much straight through. I don't remember much about those two days, but I'm pretty sure I skipped all my classes and most of my meals. Another time (for an assignment) I was in a lab working one evening, and saw a girl from another class. Anyway, I worked through the night and she came in again in the morning. It was amusing to see the realization slowly sink into her face... I'm such a computer geek. Anyway, point is that I can relate to those long hours when the ideas are sprouting faster than you can get them out.

My best luck thus far has been with broad ideas that I can sketch out, take some notes, whatever, then fill in the rest later. Something like drawing, or musicstill evades me, though, since I can scarcely grab a few of the details before the rest are gone.

Not sure about that show mentioned, but my personal take is that as long as you can take the finished version and say, 'Yes! Yes, this is _exactly_ what I imagined!' then who the hell cares how you did it?

So now I guess I must go and force myself to become better at recognizing my ideas and getting them down on SOMETHING before they're gone - and spend less time complaining about how they evade me. Wish me luck.

Oh, one more question remains. What of the ideas that are too ambitious, software or otherwise? greenrd? anyone?
 
Concentrating on the perfect transmission of ideas which are on the
borders of the unsayable is a counsel of perfection for any Artist
or software engineer. I take the point that at least the latter has
the satisfaction of knowing it works, whether anyone can use it
or not.

The Artist is always in the position that even if he or she has readers,
listeners or whatever, they will tend to find what they want to
find and ignore the rest. Perhaps the greatest artists have allowed
for the creative receiver and the best works seem to change their
meanings as we grow. It is just knowing what to leave undone and unsaid.
Ah, just! :rolleyes:
 
mike_legs said:
Does everyone have this problem? I think I'm creative, because I can conceptualize some very very interesting stuff (images, music, philosophies, etc), but then have a LOT of trouble translating them into reality.
I'm exactly like that with music. All my life, I've had this ability to hear music in my head - not only music that I've heard, but also original pieces that seem to have composed themselves. I've even dreamed such music. But can I translate any of this into something that others can hear? No way! I cannot write music, I cannot sing or hum or whistle a tune, I can't tell one note from another.
I can't express anything musically, but I can express myself pretty well artistically and in writing. Personally, I think it's something in the brain wiring.
 
Mrs. UrbanDruid is a seamstress and can't draw or paint for toffee, yet she can manipulate fabrics in a most beautiful way to make damn' near anything. She often sketches out her ideas for herself and they look like nothing on earth to me, but to her they constitute a design and she can work from them. I'd definitely say she was talented yet not artistic, though her creations are often called works of art.
Her latest creation is a shroud for a stillborn baby. It's both gorgeous and simple, and was a great comfort to the grieving family.
 
About the ideas on the fringe of comprehension that seem to disappear into thin air... I think that often, in an idea producing mode, we are in a self-hypnotic trance. Outside of that trance, we forget what was going on inside of it. Also, inside the trance we are much more accepting, much less analytical than we are in our normal state of mind. That is not to say that wonderful things do not come of it, they do! But ideas can slip away like the dreams one had last night.

I don't believe those ideas are gone for good. I believe they become a part of us. That may not be unacceptable when what we are thinking out so brilliantly is a philosophy but it sure is difficult when it is it is the solution to a problem! Having the answer and losing it gives one a frustrated, lost, incomplete feeling.
 
I find phrases running through my head which sound absolutely brilliant (usually just as I'm about to fall asleep. I've learnt from bitter experience that I must write them down and not wait until morning, but often, even as I pick up my pen to jot it down, it has become garbled.

Carole
 
I had had some of my better idea's for stories or even whole poems just after I have got into my bed. I always have to get up and find a pen and some paper before I forget my idea's. Though if it is short I am lucky enough to be able to stay in bed and write and save it in text form on my mobile phone. If I don't get my idea's down I nearly always forget them, and if I forget them I get angry with myself for not writing it down.


luce
 
Starting tomorrow I will take a pen and small notebook everywhere I go.
 
Setting Free The Muse

Mikey my friend, I can only tell you what I experienced...Number one: do it all the time, whatever outlet you choose. Some famous writer whose name escapes me at the moment was asked for advice by an aspiring writer and his advice was - write every day even if what you create is dreck. keep it and go back to it later, you'll see your own strengths and weaknesses. But write everyday - "a writer writes". I am a poet and the same applies, I think to any creative endeavour. Number two: try to find out what inspires you most strongly, that is, what you can be inspired by and most effectively create from. Then immerse yourself in that, and in the creativity that results, until you have honed it all - your ability to see and narrow in on the central thing that is inspiring you, the ability to translate your vision, and your actual creative product.
 
I've always been struck by how creative Fortean people are generally - comes from an open, unshackled mind I suppose.
I class myself as artistic/creative - drawing, painting, writing, but these are only the practised elements of an overall appreciation and intuitive understanding, I feel, of aesthetics and harmony. I feel that I could as well turn my art to music, and find skilled expression (in the idea or compostion at least, if not the physical dexterity of playing the instrument).
The creative process is something always running in my mind. I constantly 'see' - observe, and note, sometimes deliberately, but generally as part of my everyday existence. And I 'file' this stuff away for later use in the art or writing. Keeping a notebook by the bed is a recommendation I can endorse (another good place is the loo - really). Ideas seem to flow, sometimes profound-sounding ones, and you can capture the essence, if not the whole concept, if you have a pen and paper ready. I had a story idea just before nodding off last night, and noted it right away. You never know when they will be useful to you, but they WILL vanish forever if you leave them to memory alone.
The creative thing can be enhanced, I believe, by self-hypnosis and other deep relaxation techniques that strip the brain of conscious thought clutter, allowing the creative unconscious to bubble up and inspire you.
 
Something that has always bothered me is that the people who seem to me to be very creative are also... well... just plain weird.

I heard in a college psychology class that creative people often display violent themes. It made me think of the 'Satan' comic I used to draw in high school. I also looked back at some very very short stories I created and every single one had people getting killed in some way or other. Same thing, but a little different goes with the sense of humor. Creative people have a very strange sense of what's funny and what isn't. What's the connection?

Anyway, ever since I 'grew up' so to speak, I've felt less and less creative. I still play guitar, but don't really feel inspired anymore. I want to do other musical stuff, but can't justify the expenditures if I think the equipment will go unused. Also, when in this 'slump' I find it immensly more difficult to hold on to those few moments of inspiration... realizing this was the impetus for this thread. Maybe I should keep a guitar by the bed and in the restroom, heh. So, the contributors have given me a lot to go on, and I think it's time to do the manual labor in hopes of getting my creative 'mojo' going again.

One last thing I want to put out here is that stuff comes to me from all angles. One day I was inspired to write a big long thing about a new financial system that got rid of credit cards and the like. Another day I'll think of a particularly interesting story plot. The next I'll think of a very funny joke to play on someone. Is this how it works for everyone else out there?
 
mike_legs said:
Creative people have a very strange sense of what's funny and what isn't. What's the connection? [/B]

Although not my cup of tea personally, this is manifest in the Monty Python/Goons variety of comedy - all bright people with an exuberant need toward excess, to play - in this case, entertain.
However, there are those with similar traits towards escapism and release from mental acuity - the experimentors (the eccentric or mad scientist), and whole hosts of artists and performers, all who need some kind of counterpoint release from their buzzing brain or talent, else...self-destruct. Sadly, so many of them do...taking that final release from the maddening of thought, which is often manifested in low self-esteem and depression. Colin Wilson deals with the issue in the latest book I've seen of his (the title escapes me - the one with the alternative archaeology/UFO angle). It's much lower on the scale than, say, asperger's or savantism, but still noteworthy, I think.



One last thing I want to put out here is that stuff comes to me from all angles. One day I was inspired to write a big long thing about a new financial system that got rid of credit cards and the like. Another day I'll think of a particularly interesting story plot. The next I'll think of a very funny joke to play on someone. Is this how it works for everyone else out there?


Seems familiar to me. I feel the need to do something quite frequently, to vent and justify that impulse - but not necessarily for its own sake. I try to turn it into something practical that might make a difference to my life. The hardest thing is to ignore the new ideas long enough to finish the current one - like itching to start a new painting, which appears fresh and complete in my head before the last is finished. I accept that it's just the way I operate. I've never written any Satanic comic strips, mind you...
 
Most of the weird ideas I get go into a spoof of the Hobbit I'm writing with a friend... Like punk Elves listening to Anarchy in Middle Earth...

Az
 
Aben Zin said:
Most of the weird ideas I get go into a spoof of the Hobbit I'm writing with a friend... Like punk Elves listening to Anarchy in Middle Earth...

Az

Did you ever read Bored of the Rings ? A Tolkien spoof , don't know who wrote it though , I didn't read it either because I was into Lord of the Rings , was a teenager and was therefore offended by it !
Marion
 
Actually I haven't read it. My parody is actually quite a lot less subtle. And quite a lot less thought out (we make it up as we go along basically...). But hell, it makes me laugh.


Az
 
To answer Mike's original query, I have always understood that the real quality of creativity is not the ability to generate original thoughts or images but the ability to follow these thoughs or images through.

By this I do not mean simply reproducing them in the real world but exploring them, taking them to their conclusion. The idea that flashes of inspiration produce finished works has always seemed to me to be a hangover of the tradition of the Muse or the tradition of aesthetics. This makes artitistic endeavour sort of like a mental panspermia; ideas float around before landing in someones brain and giving fruit.

All creativity is a kind of synthasis, where disparate pieces of information are combined to produce a new piece of information. This in mind it becomes possible to 'think back' from an idea to explore the different threads that gave birth to the new idea, concept or image.

As far as I know, genius is nothing to do with 'originality' but to do with an individuals ability to work through their ideas, explore them and develop them.

An idea can be approached from many different angles. You say that you will have a cool idea for an image but then cannot translate that into the outside world. Maybe it would be good to explore that image, work out the origin of that image, try and find out how you arrived at it, then work through your thinking on that.

Most pieces of art go through many different drafts and and permutations before they achieve their finished form. All of these attempts add more associations, ideas, information which fleshes out the original idea, making whatever the essence of that idea was more communicable to other people.

Sometimes a certain taste produces great literature, sometimes a piece of music produces a painting, sometimes a dream produces science. All of this comes through exploration of a certain idea, image or feeling.

I've always found it useful to keep a notebook where I try to write down my thinking, anything that occurs to me. The point of this is not to produce any finished project but to give me a 'map' of my thinking. Rereading these notebooks I have a record of my thinking which in turn sparks more thinking when I read it. This lets me etend a certain thought, combining it with other thoughts until I can produce something that I am happy with.

My sister, who is sudying Photography at university, was told during her foundation course that the first idea you have about something will always be rubbish, the trick is to take the essence of that idea and build upon it.

I think it arrests this exploration if you try and produce a finished object from it in a direct line from inspiration to finished object. If you get into the habit of 'catching' thoughts and noting them in whatever form you can you'll find that you begin to flesh ideas out over time, eventually getting to a stage where you can realise the results of a idea in a way that satisfies you. Its a matter of finding the best medium for you to operate in, rather than flogging yourself to death trying to realise something in a medium you are not comfortable with.

Everyone has creative thoughts all the time, that's why we're a problem solving species that has arrived at all of things that we have. What has given us all of our achievements has been our ability to record and build upon thought that has come before. On a personal level this is also true, creative genius being the outstanding ability to do this with one's own thinking.
 
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