COVID-19 / Coronavirus: Disinformation, Fake News & Scams

Trevp666

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....years of living in a damp, cold, wet climate....
Whaaaat????.....It's lovely here! We haven't seen a rainy day since March. Shame we haven't been able to go out though.
And besides, all the talk about the UK being wet is generally nonsense.
In November last year it only rained twice. Once for one week and once for three weeks.

TBF though, the UK is generally milder than it's European counterparts of the same latitude due to us being on the tail end of the gulf stream, which brings wetter but warmer air up over us from the Atlantic.
 

PeteS

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I think even the best run care home in the world would have trouble when people with a highly infectious disease which is especially likely to kill elderly people are deliberately put in them. And the staff aren't even given PPE. It is pretty much manslaughter.
It's misleading to think care homes don't have ppe - they have always had the stuff. It's just that carers, however well trained and well meaning have largely regarded it as unnecessary or simply couldn't be bothered with it. A recipe for disaster. I sincerely hope that care homes will take a different view in the future and the Care quality Commission and other interested bodies will take a more active interest in the issue, rather than worrying too much about how hard the lunch time potatoes are boiled.
 

PeteS

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My point stands, though: .

maximus otter
So does mine - it's not ground breaking science to prevent infection spreading in a care home- it's a captive audience. Deaths of residents who died in care homes in your category a) were avoidable.
 

Lb8535

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There are so many interesting factors to look at in all of this. Both now and more so in a years time.

How reliable are the numbers coming out of different countries? Russia for example. Over 320,000 cases but only 3,000 deaths? Let's not even get started on China. Even Sweden now has slipped from exact daily numbers to numbers including deaths from the past 3 or 4 days.

Population densities - how tightly together live people? For example, England is the most crowded country in Europe. Belgium and the Netherlands are also very "crowded" when you look at landmass/population. The central corridor of the UK is pretty much one big town from bottom to top. The USA has alot of wide open spaces to naturally slow down the spread. Sweden is mostly forest with 3 major cities and then a few minor ones. The virus here has hit the Capital hard but the other cities are lagging behind.

Genetics - it may well turn out that the UK population is genetically more susceptible to the virus than say our French or German cousins.

Environmental factors - maybe years of living in a damp, cold, wet climate has made the UK more vulnerable. I know that asthma levels are more or less the same in the UK as here in Sweden yet ventilation in homes and air quality is better here. The UK has a lot of rising damp, mould indoors, lichen, moss and algae on street walls, pavements. It's wet on an island. Maybe this has a detrimental effect on the lungs?

Culture and Social aspects as Infection vectors - Not just face kissing, shaking hands and not washing hands etc but the pig ignorance of the general population who still gather for barbecues, on beaches, birthdays and then sneak off for lock-ins because "the Government aren't telling me what to do. I'm a grown up and it's my choice".

Legacy health problems - maybe years of working in coal mines and being around that sort of pollution weakened the older generations of the working classes, lessening their ability to ward off the virus.

However you look at it, there is probably a list of 50 or so variables which could explain/distort the figures. It starts to become aparent how hard it would be to create a mathematical model to allow for ALL of this.
Thanks what a good thoughtful argument. I expect there are epidemiologists working on these factors without putting out press releases. And yes for those of you who are perhaps lacking in perspective, the UK is a damp cold country.
 

Cochise

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As far as weather goes, the striking thing about the UK climate is that it never gets really cold, and it never gets really hot. Certainly compared to Connecticut, where i lived for 5 years. Of course people living in the UK all their lives don't realise that.
 

PeteS

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Thanks what a good thoughtful argument. I expect there are epidemiologists working on these factors without putting out press releases. And yes for those of you who are perhaps lacking in perspective, the UK is a damp cold country.
Interesting perspective from a scientist on the radio last week. A very large proportion of several hundred people who died of Covid and were tested were found to have severe Vitamin D deficiencies and others who died with it had low vitamin D. As the scientist pointed out though this was not a scientific investigation but merely the result of testing and observation.
 

Xanatic*

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Could that be because those people had stayed inside and out of sunlight? We might end up like morlocks soon.
 

Trevp666

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Interesting perspective from a scientist on the radio last week. A very large proportion of several hundred people who died of Covid and were tested were found to have severe Vitamin D deficiencies and others who died with it had low vitamin D. As the scientist pointed out though this was not a scientific investigation but merely the result of testing and observation.
Probably Dr John Campbell. He presents his own daily updates which include a whole load of medical information, and has interviewed a large number of other experts.
This is his latest interview which happened on a US news prog.
He has a very deliberate and clear way of telling you straight information that makes it very easy to take in.
 

escargot

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It's misleading to think care homes don't have ppe - they have always had the stuff. It's just that carers, however well trained and well meaning have largely regarded it as unnecessary or simply couldn't be bothered with it. A recipe for disaster. I sincerely hope that care homes will take a different view in the future and the Care quality Commission and other interested bodies will take a more active interest in the issue, rather than worrying too much about how hard the lunch time potatoes are boiled.
When I worked in care homes the people more concerned about PPE supplies were the management, who'd constantly complain that gloves, aprons etc were being 'wasted'.

Care staff would be reminded not to use 'too much', as if we were holding fashion parades in it.

Even worse, some homes try to ration the number of incontinence pads used. So if Mrs Jones wet herself at 9am she had to sit in it until her official pad change at 2pm.

Homes are run on knife-edge budgets. Minimum staff levels are observed. It's hard work with a lot of management penny-pinching. Gruesome.
 

Jim

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Thinks.... Government app.
Thinks..... Previous Government IT Projects.
Thinks.... Nah. I’m good.

What I don”t get about an app is that if I’m in a car park next to a guy with his windows closed and his bluetooth contacts mine and I respond, do I have to follow up and self-isolate again. If the person next door connects via bluetooth, do I then have to self-isolate even though we’re a thin wall apart? What is the range and does it recognise walls, windows and doors?
All depends on the strength (in dBm) of the signal in the Bluetooth band. Often a repeater can help improve the quality - strength of the signal. Yes any thing between devices, i.e.: walls trees, etc does attenuate (reduce) the signal. The long and the short of it is it depends on the equipment used to transmit and or recieve the Bluetooth signal.
 

EnolaGaia

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Here's the May 22nd installment of the Associated Press' weekly review and debunking of COVID and COVID-related rumors and fake news (among other fake news items):

NOT REAL NEWS: A look at what didn’t happen this week
https://apnews.com/c4a819f1e83d6395cf0015038fa7d4b6
 

PeteS

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When I worked in care homes the people more concerned about PPE supplies were the management, who'd constantly complain that gloves, aprons etc were being 'wasted'.

Care staff would be reminded not to use 'too much', as if we were holding fashion parades in it.

Even worse, some homes try to ration the number of incontinence pads used. So if Mrs Jones wet herself at 9am she had to sit in it until her official pad change at 2pm.

Homes are run on knife-edge budgets. Minimum staff levels are observed. It's hard work with a lot of management penny-pinching. Gruesome.
And therein lies the main problem as far as UK care homes are concerned. They are businesses largely owned by companies, who are heavily financed by institutions interested only in returns on their investment and who couldn't care less about the elderly. The costs of operating even 1 care home and the consequences of having to comply with the minutia of legislation are eye watering and there is massive competition. Cost cutting is inevitable, leaving the vunerable, who often have to pay a fortune to be looked after, to suffer. PPE should be at the top of the list of essentials, even in normal circumstances. Equally it should be ingrained into staff that ppe is compulsory where necessary. I hope the Covid thing makes things change for the future.
 

escargot

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And therein lies the main problem as far as UK care homes are concerned. They are businesses largely owned by companies, who are heavily financed by institutions interested only in returns on their investment and who couldn't care less about the elderly. The costs of operating even 1 care home and the consequences of having to comply with the minutia of legislation are eye watering and there is massive competition. Cost cutting is inevitable, leaving the vunerable, who often have to pay a fortune to be looked after, to suffer. PPE should be at the top of the list of essentials, even in normal circumstances. Equally it should be ingrained into staff that ppe is compulsory where necessary. I hope the Covid thing makes things change for the future.
Spot-on. Nothing will change though as it's all about the money. As you say, they are owned by companies who couldn't care less about the elderly.
PPE and other equipment is cheaper to buy and to maintain (in the case of items like hoists, specialist beds, cleaning appliances etc) in bulk. So the costs are lower for bigger companies who own several homes.

In my experience the best care homes are local authority ones and the better-run charities. Both types can bulk-buy and have enough resources for good training and possibly better staffing levels, and crucially are not run on the basis of profit for investors.

One of the best homes I worked in was one of three owned by a small charity which had converted small but grand country mansions. (As a bonus, it was heavily haunted. Had several experiences there myself.)
 

McAvennie

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The thin medical paper disposable masks we are wearing now, so there appears to be no actual benefit from these compared to a homemade washable one.

Already starting to see companies selling fashion ones or sports team branded ones.

Surely next step will be more expensive, heavy duty ones with air purifier or scented air.

Is there where we start the road to dystopian sci-fi futures where everyone permanently wears facemasks and breathing apparatus?

Only taking them off to procreate in airlocked rooms.
 

Cochise

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The thin medical paper disposable masks we are wearing now, so there appears to be no actual benefit from these compared to a homemade washable one.

Already starting to see companies selling fashion ones or sports team branded ones.

Surely next step will be more expensive, heavy duty ones with air purifier or scented air.

Is there where we start the road to dystopian sci-fi futures where everyone permanently wears facemasks and breathing apparatus?

Only taking them off to procreate in airlocked rooms.

Not me. I don't believe wearing a face mask will make the slightest difference to someone not in health care and otherwise following 'the rules'. Catching this is not about one virii (is that a word? ) crossing the divide, it is about viral load. Being shut up with someone who has the virus - family member or patient in care - seems to be the best way to get infected.
 

Mythopoeika

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Is there where we start the road to dystopian sci-fi futures where everyone permanently wears facemasks and breathing apparatus?
A good point! We do seem to see a lot of depictions of mask-wearing people in dystopias. It seems to be based on the belief that the air outside is a howling maelstrom of pollution, dust and disease.
 

Cochise

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A good point! We do seem to see a lot of depictions of mask-wearing people in dystopias. It seems to be based on the belief that the air outside is a howling maelstrom of pollution, dust and disease.
As opposed to being a fundamental requirement of life.
 

Lb8535

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Not me. I don't believe wearing a face mask will make the slightest difference to someone not in health care and otherwise following 'the rules'. Catching this is not about one virii (is that a word? ) crossing the divide, it is about viral load. Being shut up with someone who has the virus - family member or patient in care - seems to be the best way to get infected.
Reminder: you wear a mask for the other guy, not for you. There may be some minimal benefit to you, but that"s not what they're designed for. You have no idea if you're infected. Only the high level medical masks cover incoming. It works for a society when everyone does it. And its about viral load within a certain length of time. A few thousand here, a few thousand there, it adds up. Plus other factors, but not breathing them in is a basic requirement. When you wear a mask it signals to others that they shoould. This is interestingly a basic test of living in a society.
 

Cochise

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Reminder: you wear a mask for the other guy, not for you. There may be some minimal benefit to you, but that"s not what they're designed for. You have no idea if you're infected. Only the high level medical masks cover incoming. It works for a society when everyone does it. And its about viral load within a certain length of time. A few thousand here, a few thousand there, it adds up. Plus other factors, but not breathing them in is a basic requirement. When you wear a mask it signals to others that they shoould. This is interestingly a basic test of living in a society.
How can I put this politely? The world is full of viruses. Prior to this collective meltdown we just coped with them . People die, for many reasons. If we are prepared to sacrifice quality of life to prevent people dying there would be no cars, no aeroplanes, no pubs. I don't want to live in that world. And BTW - God - if this is your doing, I want to talk to you.
 

Lb8535

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How can I put this politely? The world is full of viruses. Prior to this collective meltdown we just coped with them . People die, for many reasons. If we are prepared to sacrifice quality of life to prevent people dying there would be no cars, no aeroplanes, no pubs. I don't want to live in that world. And BTW - God - if this is your doing, I want to talk to you.
I hear this a lot. Sure the world is full of viruses, but those that have effects as bad as this one are rare now in the developed world. Here's the litany again: no treatment, no vaccine, so contagious that perfectly nice healthcare workers won't help to treat you at home - if you get it you're on your own. When it's at epidemic levels (like now, we've just artificially slowed infection) not enough hospital facilities. And very unpleasant to have even if you survive. If you're betting that you will have one of the easy cases and not give it to your family, more power to you, but I wouldn't take that bet. Because untreatable so it runs its course, many chronic aftereffects, some severe. If you tell me to wear a mask because some people in Africa are reporting Ebola I will resist. If you tell me to wear it because there is evidence of its spread in New York, I may pay attention.

These are the diseases we are all generally inoculated against: measles, mumps, chicken pox, german measles, smallpox, tetanus, diphtheria, polio, occasionally yellow fever, I probably missed some.. All of these without inoculation and in some cases thousands of years of knowledge about treatment are just as destructive as c19. Some are less contagious, some are more. We've forgotten what diseases do to us individually and to society. A few are left in circulation, like plague, which regularly but sparsely occurs here, and the hoopla about avoiding plague is the same as for c19 but the number of cases is infinitesimal. If it became antibiotic resistant you might see public masks in use on that too.

So before I hear arguments about quality of life, I need to know about probabilities and the downside risks. To me the downside of getting the illness is much more than the inconvenience of wearing a mask, which will be temporary. And if we all decide not to wear masks and open up and just go for it a significant portion of the population will be dead, especially older and experienced medical researchers, engineers of all variety, farm workers, factory workers, bus drivers, political leaders (don't start me...). What will that do to the western economy?
 

Cochise

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I hear this a lot. Sure the world is full of viruses, but those that have effects as bad as this one are rare now in the developed world. Here's the litany again: no treatment, no vaccine, so contagious that perfectly nice healthcare workers won't help to treat you at home - if you get it you're on your own. When it's at epidemic levels (like now, we've just artificially slowed infection) not enough hospital facilities. And very unpleasant to have even if you survive. If you're betting that you will have one of the easy cases and not give it to your family, more power to you, but I wouldn't take that bet. Because untreatable so it runs its course, many chronic aftereffects, some severe. If you tell me to wear a mask because some people in Africa are reporting Ebola I will resist. If you tell me to wear it because there is evidence of its spread in New York, I may pay attention.

These are the diseases we are all generally inoculated against: measles, mumps, chicken pox, german measles, smallpox, tetanus, diphtheria, polio, occasionally yellow fever, I probably missed some.. All of these without inoculation and in some cases thousands of years of knowledge about treatment are just as destructive as c19. Some are less contagious, some are more. We've forgotten what diseases do to us individually and to society. A few are left in circulation, like plague, which regularly but sparsely occurs here, and the hoopla about avoiding plague is the same as for c19 but the number of cases is infinitesimal. If it became antibiotic resistant you might see public masks in use on that too.

So before I hear arguments about quality of life, I need to know about probabilities and the downside risks. To me the downside of getting the illness is much more than the inconvenience of wearing a mask, which will be temporary. And if we all decide not to wear masks and open up and just go for it a significant portion of the population will be dead, especially older and experienced medical researchers, engineers of all variety, farm workers, factory workers, bus drivers, political leaders (don't start me...). What will that do to the western economy?
The downside of getting COVID-19 is that you could die. But of course you could fall down the stairs in your home and die. You could avoid that by never going upstairs.

For goodness sake grow up.
 

Lb8535

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The downside of getting COVID-19 is that you could die. But of course you could fall down the stairs in your home and die. You could avoid that by never going upstairs.

For goodness sake grow up.
So exactly how far do you carry this argument? Do you have your brakes checked? Why bother? It's about the other guy, and it's very important.
 

Cochise

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So exactly how far do you carry this argument? Do you have your brakes checked? Why bother? It's about the other guy, and it's very important.
Every year I have something like a 1 in 70 chance of dying. I have zero chance of living to 130. If the other bloke is scared, he/she/it can stay indoors.
 

Cochise

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My niece had leukemia at 3 years. For a few years she had little immune system. Not everyone who is vulnerable is old.
I also was lucky to make it to adulthood. Now I'm here I intend to enjoy it.
 

maximus otter

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If l were old, sick, black, obese or deficient in vitamin D l would be concerned about C19.

As l am none of these, l would like the media to dial the shrieks down from 11, and the government to source a couple of feet of backbone and give me back my life.

maximus otter
 

Naughty_Felid

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If l were old, sick, black, obese or deficient in vitamin D l would be concerned about C19.

As l am none of these, l would like the media to dial the shrieks down from 11, and the government to source a couple of feet of backbone and give me back my life.

maximus otter
As usual it's all about you.
 
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Yithian

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The downside of getting COVID-19 is that you could die. But of course you could fall down the stairs in your home and die. You could avoid that by never going upstairs.

For goodness sake grow up.
We don't need the last part, Cochise.
 

Naughty_Felid

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Honestly reading this thread you'd think some people have been living in a cellar eating crusts and drinking their own piss. That last thing is probably true actually judging by the tone of these posters.

You lot live in a society that gives you everything and you can't handle being put out for a few weeks.

You've not been asked to go to work daily stacking shelves or treating patients and that has been really stressful. You lot have not have had to do anything just stay in doors for a bit.

You've done yourself no credit during this pandemic.
 

ramonmercado

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If l were old, sick, black, obese or deficient in vitamin D l would be concerned about C19.

As l am none of these, l would like the media to dial the shrieks down from 11, and the government to source a couple of feet of backbone and give me back my life.

maximus otter
Casts chicken bones, prophesies that Max will be trampled by diseased old sun dodging black deer.
 
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