COVID-19 / Coronavirus: Disinformation, Fake News & Scams

ramonmercado

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It does sound a bit batty but are we really wanting to live in a world where dissent is not tolerated? Are we as adults so stupid that we must be fed 'the company line' to the exclusion of all others?
She's not just a bit batty, read the article at the link in full and you will see that she is not just a dissenter. She's an anti-vaxxer among other things. She is pushing ideas that are downright dangerous.
 

GNC

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This may be just a general moan, but it is connected to the virus conspiracies. The idea that anyone who goes against the status quo, or accepted wisdom, is some kind of romantic rebel who speaks truth in the face of establishment control is getting really old.

It started in the conspiracy world, and has bred nothing but contrarians who think they're smart because they are one of those rebels, when in fact they're idiots.

The trouble is how attractive the rebel idea is, and how many people are being duped by know-nothing know-alls. Just because you're not going with the accepted flow doesn't make you some kind of genius: experts do know a lot, many of them know more than you. It's not a personal insult to be told you don't know enough on every given subject to hold an informed opinion, just go with it and you might learn something from someone who does know.

Seriously, the contrarians have become dangerous.
 

Cochise

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She's not just a bit batty, read the article at the link in full and you will see that she is not just a dissenter. She's an anti-vaxxer among other things. She is pushing ideas that are downright dangerous.
You can't ban ideas - trying to makes them stronger.
 

ramonmercado

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You can't ban ideas - trying to makes them stronger.
It's not banning ideas, it would be inappropriate for a Flat Earther to be on a State/UN/EU Cartography or Geography Committee, the same holds for her membership of the EU committee . She can still spread her ideas but not as part of the Official Scientific Committee.
 

Eyespy

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I am going to put this here as not sure where else it should go, got a headache and I am tired.
to put in context, in my other incarnation life I am a Safety specialist so have sent rather too much time of late thinking about about C19 etc and reading daily updates on matters relating to Safety.
A big concern at the moment is the provision of Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) particularly masks as it seems there is an influx of fake items or items that are substandard.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/safetybullet...m_source=govdelivery&utm_medium=email&utm_cam

https://www.hse.gov.uk/safetybullet...mpaign=kn95-safety-alert&utm_content=textlink


This link will take you to the appropriate article. The main concern is items labelled as KN95 compliant as this is is an internal Chineses standard which is verified by the manufacturer, not subject to external or 3rd party checks. So far tis week I have seen 2 adverts for these items in newspapers.
 

Cochise

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It's not banning ideas, it would be inappropriate for a Flat Earther to be on a State/UN/EU Cartography or Geography Committee, the same holds for her membership of the EU committee . She can still spread her ideas but not as part of the Official Scientific Committee.
Official Scientific Committee. Do you realise how Stalinist that sounds?
 

ramonmercado

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Official Scientific Committee. Do you realise how Stalinist that sounds?
So no country should have a Chief Medical Officer or Health/Science Advisory Committees? Are all of the countries who have them Stalinist?
 

Cochise

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So no country should have a Chief Medical Officer or Health/Science Advisory Committees? Are all of the countries who have them Stalinist?
No problem with them but science constantly changes, and it's often the mavericks that come up with new discoveries or new angles on existing conclusions. It should be a matter for open debate.

I once read a book called (I think) Serendipity which was all about accidental or unlikely scientific discoveries - quite often when the scientist in question was trying to do something entirely different.
 

ramonmercado

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No problem with them but science constantly changes, and it's often the mavericks that come up with new discoveries or new angles on existing conclusions. It should be a matter for open debate.
But in this case it's not just a maverick, it's someone who is an anti-vaxxer.

How open should debate be?

Should flat earthers be on cartography/geographical committees?

Should moon landing deniers be on NASA Committees?
 

Cochise

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I don't like the idea that because you have one idea that is off the wall, you're not worth listening to. I've experienced that sort of thing myself., having a mix of ideas some from the mid-left (re-nationalise the railways, water companies etc.) and the mid right (bring back the Grammar Schools, for goodness sake)

That was what I was trying to say about the serendipitous stuff. I don't say she is doing this, but in trying to prove why vaccines are dangerous (and they do have a very small risk factor, somewhere in the .0001 area, not of autism, but of allergic reactions) she might discover some vital information about something else. Which of course would only be valuable if someone else could repeat it.

I'm not suggesting we should take David Icke types seriously, of course.
 
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Naughty_Felid

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I don't like the idea that because you have one idea that is off the wall, you're not worth listening to. I've experienced that sort of thing myself., having a mix of ideas some from the mid-left (re-nationalise the railways, water companies etc.) and the mid right (bring back the Grammar Schools, for goodness sake)

That was what I was trying to say about the serendipitous stuff. I don't say she is doing this, but in trying to prove why vaccines are dangerous (and they do have a very small risk factor, somewhere in the .0001 area, not of autism, but of allergic reactions) she might discover some vital information about something else. Which of course would only be valuable if someone else could repeat it.

I'm not suggesting we should take David Icke types seriously, of course.
That's fine, but she can do that whilst not being part of EU committee that communicates with the public and is supposed to educate and allay fears.
 

PeteS

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I'm not suggesting we should take David Icke types seriously, of course.
That's the point - most of the population are not stupid, and won't take things at face value. Icke and his ilk will always have followers, such people always have since the beginning, but most will make up their own minds and dismiss the "out there".

Straying into a very dangerous area :)) ) a classic example of this was the recent result in a certain country's election where the opposition made such outlandish promises that they were virtually entirely dismissed by the electorate. Nope people are not as daft as they are made out to be.
 

Xanatic*

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The recent 5G/Covid stuff happening suggests otherwise.
 

Cochise

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The recent 5G/Covid stuff happening suggests otherwise.
I'm not so sure. Given the strength of the message from Government (whether 'following the science' or not) and that most persons are not suspicious bastards persons like me, you can't blame the sizeable majority who are now very concerned about easing the lockdown. Many people will say 'why are we reacting like this if we haven't in the past'? And a percentage will put 2 and 2 together and make 5. (Geddit? :) )

As I mentioned earlier, if they were 'following the science' - that is, Ferguson's report on effective measures to cut the death toll from 250,000 to 20,000 - it did NOT recommend closing the schools as the disruption outweighed the marginal effect of the closure.

Of course the death rate is higher than he predicted, but I know his model didn't take into account cock-ups like releasing untested elderly patients to care homes that were totally unequipped to deal with an outbreak.

And of course he was talking about deaths 'by' coronavirus, not deaths 'with'.

His code may be amateurish, but then, although he is a professional epidemiologist he is an amateur programmer, and his code should have been reviewed by an professional programmer.

But I've come to the conclusion that he is far from solely to blame for the situation we find ourselves in. I haven't mentioned the 510,000 if nothing was done , as by the time he reported we already had the first measures in place.

Edit - I wish I could get my grammar right first time - after all I went to a Grammar School. Although in fact i was taught grammar in primary school at about 10 years old.

Further edit: Models cannot predict the future, they can only project the past into the future which is not the same thing. They take no account of random cock-ups, or indeed new positive discoveries.
 
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AlchoPwn

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I'm not so sure. Given the strength of the message from Government (whether 'following the science' or not) and that most persons are not suspicious bastards persons like me, you can't blame the sizeable majority who are now very concerned about easing the lockdown. Many people will say 'why are we reacting like this if we haven't in the past'? And a percentage will put 2 and 2 together and make 5. (Geddit? :) )
Too true, sadly. This is what happens when governments squander the public trust as if it is their birthright.
As I mentioned earlier, if they were 'following the science' - that is, Ferguson's report on effective measures to cut the death toll from 250,000 to 20,000 - it did NOT recommend closing the schools as the disruption outweighed the marginal effect of the closure.
Well then the Ferguson model was wrong. Educational facilities are hotbeds of disease transmission, and I should damn well know, having served as an educator and copped repeated ghastly lurgies. I swear I only took to drinking neat whiskey to sterilize my tonsils on a daily basis. Honest.
Of course the death rate is higher than he predicted, but I know his model didn't take into account cock-ups like releasing untested elderly patients to care homes that were totally unequipped to deal with an outbreak.
We are now at 440,000, which is higher than they yearly flu death toll of +/-330,000.
And of course he was talking about deaths 'by' coronavirus, not deaths 'with'.
An important distinction that does you credit to mention. How much higher will the stats be if they were truly inclusive, huh?
His code may be amateurish, but then, although he is a professional epidemiologist he is an amateur programmer, and his code should have been reviewed by an professional programmer.
I think there are some countries whose models have been vastly superior, and those are the ones we should all copy, assuming that we aren't proverbially locking the gate after the horse has bolted.
But I've come to the conclusion that he is far from solely to blame for the situation we find ourselves in. I haven't mentioned the 510,000 if nothing was done , as by the time he reported we already had the first measures in place.
I think there are a goodly few people who have a lot of money and dread what the virus will do to their funds. For example, I suspect that is the primary reason Trump was so anti-quarantine, as many of his resorts were hovering on the verge of bankruptcy. Of course then some wiseguy mentioned the magic word "stimulus" and suddenly every billionaire was lining up around the block to get their government covid handout.
Edit - I wish I could get my grammar right first time - after all I went to a Grammar School. Although in fact i was taught grammar in primary school at about 10 years old.
Don't sweat it. I used to work at a university and I was not even teaching astronomy.
Further edit: Models cannot predict the future, they can only project the past into the future which is not the same thing. They take no account of random cock-ups, or indeed new positive discoveries.
Having briefly dated a model once, I can confirm this. I suspect I was,as you mentioned, a random cock-up (so-to-speak).
 

Cochise

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Agree with most of your comments, AlchoPwn. Just one point - Ferguson's prediction of up to 510,000 deaths was for the UK alone.
 

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The recent 5G/Covid stuff happening suggests otherwise.
The point I was trying to make was that all that rowlocks and it's ilk will be "followed" by the tiniest minority, leaving 99.9999.... % of the population thinking wtf.
 

AlchoPwn

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Agree with most of your comments, AlchoPwn. Just one point - Ferguson's prediction of up to 510,000 deaths was for the UK alone.
In the longer term he might yet be correct, more's the pity. I am presently pinning my homes on the virus mutating out of a lethal form. That is likely to happen long before we get a vaccine. Some of the research is demonstrating that this is one hell of an awful bug.
 

Cochise

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In the longer term he might yet be correct, more's the pity. I am presently pinning my homes on the virus mutating out of a lethal form. That is likely to happen long before we get a vaccine. Some of the research is demonstrating that this is one hell of an awful bug.
There is evidence from Italy that the virus is indeed mutating to a less lethal form, which is good news if verified.
 

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I'll buy one and then I can be totally free of 5G. Because I have the greatest respect for town councils and their opinions especially when I remove my tin foil hat at night.

You won't be alone in your delusion!

Piers Corbyn, who has a rather (in)famous politician for a brother, has been charged with breaking lockdown rules twice, for his public campaigning against 5G, which he believes is linked to the Coronavirus pandemic:

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-06-20...-for-twice-breaching-coronavirus-regulations/
 

Mythopoeika

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ramonmercado

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Masks won't kill you!

The BBC's anti-disinformation team has been investigating misleading claims about the health risks of face masks.

Here is a look at some of the most widely seen examples on social media. Most people won't find masks very comfortable, but this article is looking at claims that wearing them is actually dangerous. A diagram taken from Wikipedia showing the "symptoms of carbon dioxide toxicity" has been re-edited and shared thousands of times on Facebook. ...

The modified version claims that wearing a mask leads to "re-breathing your exhaled CO2". People have attached the image to comments under BBC News articles about the new rules. We've seen lots of posts alerting people to this potentially harmful side-effect - called hypercapnia - where there's too much carbon dioxide in the blood. But it's highly unlikely you'll suffer it wearing a cloth or gauze face mask.

"This simply won't happen unless there is an air-tight fit and you rebreathe your air," says Prof Keith Neal, an infectious disease expert.

Carbon dioxide molecules are tiny - far smaller than droplets containing coronavirus which the masks are designed to stop - and won't be trapped by a breathable material, particularly during relatively short periods like a bus journey. When you breathe out, the carbon dioxide will go through and round the mask. Surgeons regularly wear much heavier-duty face coverings all day without coming to harm.

https://www.bbc.com/news/53108405
 

Stormkhan

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Heh.
I'm sure all those in the healthcare sector who have to wear masks for over 12 hours a day will find some relief in that. After all, so many of them must've been dropping like flies. :rolleyes:
 

Mythopoeika

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Heh.
I'm sure all those in the healthcare sector who have to wear masks for over 12 hours a day will find some relief in that. After all, so many of them must've been dropping like flies. :rolleyes:
Some healthcare workers have been dying, probably because the right precautions weren't taken from the outset and also because their intensity of exposure was greater than the general population. Also, I think those N95 or plastic masks they've been wearing are simply not good enough.
 

blessmycottonsocks

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Yes, I saw that recently. I was really surprised by that. I thought he was a lot more intelligent.
Just goes to show that even apparently intelligent people can be complete [email protected]
Look at David Icke. He is no ignoramus, but his views are certainly "two stops from Dagenham" (beyond Barking).
 

Mythopoeika

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Just goes to show that even apparently intelligent people can be complete [email protected]
Look at David Icke. He is no ignoramus, but his views are certainly "two stops from Dagenham" (beyond Barking).
The thing about Icke is that he latches onto every idea and joins them all together.
 

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Yes, I saw that recently. I was really surprised by that. I thought he was a lot more intelligent.
Now more than ever it seems clear that intelligence and common sense are sometimes mutually exclusive.
 
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