COVID-19: Non-Medical Effects (Responses; Disruptions; Etc.)

[Lb8535]

I think it is first and foremost about reducing hospital admissions, especially as some hospitals are now cancelling urgent cancer operations in order to deal with the influx of covid patients. So people who have the highest chance of hospitalisation/death are being prioritised over those who have less chance, regardless of whether they might actually have a higher chance of actually catching it in the first place due to being customer facing. It's just a horrible situation for so many people.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-55572871

Yes, the rationale is the same in the US. Immunization (in NY where the system is as organized as it can be made) is prioritized to 1. ensure skilled workers to care for those seriously ill 2. reduce the load on the hospitals, with a sub-priority for those who will be taken to the hospital but because of their age or physical condition probably can't be helped and so will occupy a bed unnecessarily 3. Ensure that the people actually keeping us going - postal workers, firefighters, teachers - stay healthy. If the goal were just to minimize infection, immunization would be sweeping an area by neighborhood, which I believe is the method in Chinese cities. I would add food-chain workers to #3 as we would not be alive right now without them.

 

[Ogdred Weary]

How do you know if you're group 6 priority or not vaccine wise? Have they even decided?

 

[Trevp666]

How do you know if you're group 6 priority or not vaccine wise? Have they even decided?

Well I do recall seeing a priority list a couple of times during the past weeks.
But I think it has been changed around a little bit due to the availability of certain vaccines and their dosage requirements being changed (the manufacturer for the Pfizer/BionTech e.g. advised 2nd jab to be done 21 days after the first but that has been over-ruled by PHE under govt orders to be at it's maximum timescale of 12 weeks)
I think it counts down from the over 80s first, and carers, then the over 70's...etc etc.
Basically, anyone under 50, with no underlying health conditions or vulnerabilities, is pretty much last in the queue.
If there are only 1.5mn a month getting jabbed, and the expectation is that the jab will need to be repeated each year, I think there is little chance of anyone under 50 even ever getting in the queue, as there will be over 23mn people constantly in front of them.

 

[Cochise]

Well I do recall seeing a priority list a couple of times during the past weeks.
But I think it has been changed around a little bit due to the availability of certain vaccines and their dosage requirements being changed (the manufacturer for the Pfizer/BionTech e.g. advised 2nd jab to be done 21 days after the first but that has been over-ruled by PHE under govt orders to be at it's maximum timescale of 12 weeks)
I think it counts down from the over 80s first, and carers, then the over 70's...etc etc.
Basically, anyone under 50, with no underlying health conditions or vulnerabilities, is pretty much last in the queue.
If there are only 1.5mn a month getting jabbed, and the expectation is that the jab will need to be repeated each year, I think there is little chance of anyone under 50 even ever getting in the queue, as there will be over 23mn people constantly in front of them.

It seems to me that there are too many people who simply can't do basic math. Goodness knows I'm no genius - I'm fine with geometry and algebra but never got the hang of calculus or trigonometry - but there are numbers being flung around by the UK government (whose writ, now, apparently only runs in England) which are simply not practical, and can be proved to be so by those who can multiply and divide.

I'm not criticising those people - sure it is a failure of our education system rather than failings of individuals.

Edit: Wales for example is not in Lockdown 3, it is at Alert Level 4:

https://gov.wales/alert-level-4

Is anyone at DEFCON 2?

 

[Trevp666]

I'm still wondering who the idiot well qualified adviser was who came up with the number of '22 million vaccinated by Easter' idea?
At the current rate we'll be lucky if we get 6 million done by Easter (it's only 85 days away, and apparently you can rule out Sundays too, so really only 75 days).
And what even more worries me is that, in general, people see/hear 'the man on the TV' telling them this stuff, and just sort of nod sagely in loyal acceptance, and commend their efforts, without even getting out a pencil and the back of an old envelope?

 

[Schrodinger's Zebra]

I'm still wondering who the idiot well qualified adviser was who came up with the number of '22 million vaccinated by Easter' idea?
At the current rate we'll be lucky if we get 6 million done by Easter (it's only 85 days away, and apparently you can rule out Sundays too, so really only 75 days).
And what even more worries me is that, in general, people see/hear 'the man on the TV' telling them this stuff, and just sort of nod sagely in loyal acceptance, and commend their efforts, without even getting out a pencil and the back of an old envelope?

Yeah. People are far too quick (in my humble opinion) to just accept what they're told without question, and the media/so-called-"journalists" never ask the questions that need to be asked.

If an "expert" appeared on TV and advised sagely that wearing a fedora would reduce the risk of transmitting the virus, some people probably would...

 

[Trevp666]

<dons his fedora>

 

[charliebrown]

On this side of the ocean, NBC news U.S. claimed wait time from ambulances to get inside the hospitals in England was 6 hours on the average.

 

[Ogdred Weary]

Well I do recall seeing a priority list a couple of times during the past weeks.
But I think it has been changed around a little bit due to the availability of certain vaccines and their dosage requirements being changed (the manufacturer for the Pfizer/BionTech e.g. advised 2nd jab to be done 21 days after the first but that has been over-ruled by PHE under govt orders to be at it's maximum timescale of 12 weeks)
I think it counts down from the over 80s first, and carers, then the over 70's...etc etc.
Basically, anyone under 50, with no underlying health conditions or vulnerabilities, is pretty much last in the queue.
If there are only 1.5mn a month getting jabbed, and the expectation is that the jab will need to be repeated each year, I think there is little chance of anyone under 50 even ever getting in the queue, as there will be over 23mn people constantly in front of them.

Group 9 is people over 50, no group 10 after yet listed. You'd presume they'd do 40-49 after that and move downwards by decade but it has yet to be clarified. The less vulnerable but still at risk people aged 16-64 has not been clarified either.

I'd say am averagely (un)healthy 19 yro is more a priority than most averagely (un)healthy 16-29 yros but who knows what they'll do.

 

[Kondoru]

On this side of the ocean, NBC news U.S. claimed wait time from ambulances to get inside the hospitals in England was 6 hours on the average.

Why are NBC interested in wait times in this country?

Its not like GB News reporting on things going on in the US because nothings happened here today...

 

[Beresford]

Why are NBC interested in wait times in this country?

Its not like GB News reporting on things going on in the US because nothings happened here today...

I don't think it's an issue at every hospital in England, but here's a link to an article published yesterday.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/health-55581006

 

[Cochise]

On this side of the ocean, NBC news U.S. claimed wait time from ambulances to get inside the hospitals in England was 6 hours on the average.

Maybe. It has been worse in previous winters, 2018 in particular, with people waiting up to 24 hours either in ambulances or on trolleys.

Round here there is no problem at all, but I'm in North Wales, which, it may not be realised in the US, does not report to the UK government for health care. To put it in US terms, it is a state rather than a federal responsibility.

 

[charliebrown]

The U.S. and UK are connected at the hip.

The Queen and Prince getting their COVID vaccination was front page news in the press in the U.S.

The governors of certain states ( particularly New York ) are trying to figure out how the U.K. mutant stain got started in their states.

According to Nick Pope, the Pentagon working with the MoD are trying to figure out a reply to the now mandatory report about UFOs in the U.S.

 

[charliebrown]

London Mayor Sadiq Khan declared London as “ major incident “.

We are simply running out of hospital space says Khan.

Khan asked Boris Johnson to financially help people who have lost wages in London.

 

[Trevp666]

We are simply running out of hospital space says Khan.

I saw the NHS 'boss' for London saying somewhere that (as has been mentioned elsewhere) numbers of patients needing ICU care at this time of year is no higher than previous years, but that the beds have been spaced out more due to 'social distancing' requirements, reducing the number of available beds, and the ability to manage the beds is reduced through staff being off through illness or having to self isolate.
Additionally, there are issues with the delivery of the oxygen supply due to an increase in demand.
(but I read, I think upthread, that the oxygen tanking system gets affected in cold weather, so that probably explains that)

The amount of 'hospital space' itself is not a problem.
Especially with the availability of the Nightingale Hospital in the Docklands which is (as of last week) apparently 'ready to accept patients'.
I shall reserve my scepticism about that though.

 

[Schrodinger's Zebra]

I saw the NHS 'boss' for London saying somewhere that (as has been mentioned elsewhere) numbers of patients needing ICU care at this time of year is no higher than previous years, but that the beds have been spaced out more due to 'social distancing' requirements, reducing the number of available beds, and the ability to manage the beds is reduced through staff being off through illness or having to self isolate.
Additionally, there are issues with the delivery of the oxygen supply due to an increase in demand.
(but I read, I think upthread, that the oxygen tanking system gets affected in cold weather, so that probably explains that)

The amount of 'hospital space' itself is not a problem.
Especially with the availability of the Nightingale Hospital in the Docklands which is (as of last week) apparently 'ready to accept patients'.
I shall reserve my scepticism about that though.

All good points.

I'm just throwing this out there, and it may be quite simplistic, but here goes.

Is there really a need to socially distance beds in a ward full of COVID-19 patients? They've all apparently got it anyway, so what's the point?

Similarly for nurses/doctors being unable to work due to self isolating if they've tested positive. Couldn't they still work (if they're asymptomatic/mildly ill that is) in the COVID hospitals? (I realise they couldn't work in the 'normal' hospitals as they'd have to frequent areas that aren't solely for COVID patients). But the way I see it, if the Nightingale hospitals were only for COVID patients then there'd be no reason why staff who had tested positive but were still well enough to work, couldn't work there, surely?

I'm sure the logistics of things like this could have been thought of and worked out.

 

[Beresford]

All good points.

I'm just throwing this out there, and it may be quite simplistic, but here goes.

Is there really a need to socially distance beds in a ward full of COVID-19 patients? They've all apparently got it anyway, so what's the point?

Similarly for nurses/doctors being unable to work due to self isolating if they've tested positive. Couldn't they still work (if they're asymptomatic/mildly ill that is) in the COVID hospitals? (I realise they couldn't work in the 'normal' hospitals as they'd have to frequent areas that aren't solely for COVID patients). But the way I see it, if the Nightingale hospitals were only for COVID patients then there'd be no reason why staff who had tested positive but were still well enough to work, couldn't work there, surely?

I'm sure the logistics of things like this could have been thought of and worked out.

If staff with asymptomatic/mild COVID were to continue working there is still a risk they could infect others unless they were in a total bubble, stayed well away from non-infected staff at break times, wore full PPE for the entire shift, were able to live on the premises etc.

 

[Schrodinger's Zebra]

If staff with asymptomatic/mild COVID were to continue working there is still a risk they could infect others unless they were in a total bubble, stayed well away from non-infected staff at break times, wore full PPE for the entire shift, were able to live on the premises etc.

Yes, but that's why I mentioned them working in the COVID hospitals rather than in normal hospitals. And surely non-infected staff are just as at risk from the COVID patients anyway?

Arguably the slight risk of these staff infecting others would still be better than them sitting at home self isolating when there are apparently so many patients needing treatment. Better planning / thinking could surely have been implemented, for example providing Nightingale hospitals with living quarters for the staff. These hospitals were supposed to be used, not sitting empty. And yes I know there's the argument about "not enough staff" for them but keeping healthy staff at home on the basis of a positive test is not helping anything.

 

[Trevp666]

I don't think that any hospitals have been designated as specifically 'Covid Hospitals' as like when there used to be 'Fever Hospitals' (maybe they should?).
And as far as I'm aware, the Nightingale Hospital in London being 'ready to receive patients' (still trying desperately to withhold my scepticism there***) is for small numbers of 'non-covid' patients, around 60.

I think there would be a general outrage though if there were hospitals which had been built and staffed that were excess to requirements and sat around empty of patients for 9 months of the year, just waiting for the winter 'flu season'.
The fact that hospitals are running at 'near capacity' shows that there are about the right number of beds.

As I live opposite the hospital I am aware of quite a number of people locally who work there, and a few number as friends (not just medical staff but a lot of adminstrative, catering and portering staff etc).
I'm told that there are, like in any business, certain members of staff who will continue to struggle in to work when they're not well, but equally certain members of staff who basically treat their 'allowance' of sick days as though they were extra holidays, and those sorts are taking advantage of 'being told to self isolate...'

***cough cough....PR stunt.....never intended to be used....etc

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

Sunday in London:



Sunday in Paris:



France is now considering a complete closure of its borders.
There is also widespread suspicion of the vaccination programme.
My wife rang her cousin yesterday in Normandie and she admitted that she would refuse the vaccination as she didn't trust the government.

https://www.theguardian.com/global/...reflects-dissatisfaction-with-political-class

 

[Lobeydosser]

It seems to me that there are too many people who simply can't do basic math. Goodness knows I'm no genius - I'm fine with geometry and algebra but never got the hang of calculus or trigonometry - but there are numbers being flung around by the UK government (whose writ, now, apparently only runs in England) which are simply not practical, and can be proved to be so by those who can multiply and divide.

I'm not criticising those people - sure it is a failure of our education system rather than failings of individuals.

Edit: Wales for example is not in Lockdown 3, it is at Alert Level 4:

https://gov.wales/alert-level-4

Is anyone at DEFCON 2?

That would mean changing the bulb......

 

[Gloucestrian]

Asocial distance flying is admittedly an approach for social distancing ...


FULL STORY: https://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2021/0...ire-flight-to-travel-privately/3851610052474/

Why are people travelling during a pandemic anyway? I could understand it last January when, human nature being what it is, people wanted to go home to family but all this travel continuing over the past year strikes me as insane.

People are being fined in the UK for travelling 5 miles for a walk, yet people can still enter the country from abroad having travelled from God only knows where. Yeah, I know "air-bridges", but someone can fly into a country that has an air-bridge with the UK and travel on to the UK from pretty much anywhere.

 

[Min Bannister]

Why are people travelling during a pandemic anyway? I could understand it last January when, human nature being what it is, people wanted to go home to family but all this travel continuing over the past year strikes me as insane.

People are being fined in the UK for travelling 5 miles for a walk, yet people can still enter the country from abroad having travelled from God only knows where. Yeah, I know "air-bridges", but someone can fly into a country that has an air-bridge with the UK and travel on to the UK from pretty much anywhere.

During the last lockdown the woman in the greengrocer told me that the greengrocer in the next town had had tourists in from China. I couldn't have travelled there but they could.

 

[EnolaGaia]

News Flash: In some jurisdictions they take the lockdown / curfew restrictions quite seriously, even if the local citizenry doesn't ...

Quebec couple hit with curfew-violation fine after wife walks husband on a leash

A Sherbrooke husband and wife were handed sizeable fines for violating curfew, despite the wife's protests that she was walking her dog and the fact the husband was wearing a leash.

The woman and her husband were each given $1,500 fines by Sherbrooke police for violating curfew. The pair was caught walking at 9 p.m. on Saturday evening.

Police said the two were walking towards downtown and did not cooperate with the officers. ...

When questioned by police, the couple said they were happy to receive the ticket and claimed they were following the rules set forth by Premier Francois Legault.

Quebec officials have said people may walk their dogs after the 8 p.m. curfew, provided they stay within one kilometre of their house. ...

FULL STORY: https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/quebec-...after-wife-walks-husband-on-a-leash-1.5262178

 

[hunck]

News Flash: In some jurisdictions they take the lockdown / curfew restrictions quite seriously, even if the local citizenry doesn't ...


FULL STORY: https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/quebec-...after-wife-walks-husband-on-a-leash-1.5262178

What's surprising about this is the 8pm curfew [unless with a dog] in Quebec. Is it the case in other towns in Canada? We've never had anything like this in the UK & I don't suppose the US has..

 

[GingerTabby]

I lived in the Sherbrooke region for a few years. I can't say this behaviour surprises me.

What's surprising about this is the 8pm curfew [unless with a dog] in Quebec. Is it the case in other towns in Canada? We've never had anything like this in the UK & I don't suppose the US has..

Ontario will implement a province-wide stay-at-home order as of one minute past midnight this Thursday. Technically it's not a curfew but in practice there will likely be little difference. It's supposed to last for twenty-eight days. People will be expected to remain at home unless they have to make essential excursions such as trips to the grocery store, pharmacy, medical offices, etc. Dog walking and other forms of exercise will be permitted. All employees who can work from home will have to do so.

 

[hunck]

I lived in the Sherbrooke region for a few years. I can't say this behaviour surprises me.



Ontario will implement a province-wide stay-at-home order as of one minute past midnight this Thursday. Technically it's not a curfew but in practice there will likely be little difference. It's supposed to last for twenty-eight days. People will be expected to remain at home unless they have to make essential excursions such as trips to the grocery store, pharmacy, medical offices, etc. Dog walking and other forms of exercise will be permitted. All employees who can work from home will have to do so.

That sounds similar to the UK - stay at home unless going out for food/exercise/medical supplies. There's no curfew though. If I wanted to go out for a walk at 1am I'd be able to with impunity.

That's different to the 8pm curfew which seems to be in place in Quebec. Otherwise the woman would be able to walk with her husband & the lead would be irrelevant.

 

[EnolaGaia]

Is it the case in other towns in Canada? We've never had anything like this in the UK & I don't suppose the US has.

I don't know ... This is the most detailed explanation I found ...

Québec Imposes Strict COVID-19 Lockdown Measures and an Overnight Curfew Through February 8, 2021
Monday, January 11, 2021

On January 6, 2021, the Québec government announced new COVID-19 restrictions that will take effect from January 9, 2021, through February 8, 2021.

The primary measure, which Premier François Legault described as an “electroshock” to curb the spread of COVID-19, is the imposition of an overnight curfew. The government will enforce an overnight curfew between the hours of 8:00 p.m. and 5:00 a.m. In the wake of similar COVID-19-related lockdown measures in France and Great Britain, Québec will become the first Canadian province to impose such a curfew. Police officers will have the power to intercept individuals found outside during the curfew hours and to issue fines ranging from $1,000 to $6,000 to those who cannot show a valid reason for breaking curfew.

In addition, regardless of the nature of the business, remote work will be mandatory for individuals who work in offices, unless “their presence [is] necessary to pursue the organization’s activities.” Under the confinement mandate, employers will have to show a compelling need to have employees present at any time in the workplace (for example, production employees are likely to qualify). ...

FULL STORY: https://www.natlawreview.com/articl...ockdown-measures-and-overnight-curfew-through

 

[Yithian]

"Electroshock" is either a weird translation or an unfortunate metaphor.

That treatment having been largely consigned to history as ineffective and inhumane.

 

[gordonrutter]

"Electroshock" is either a weird translation or an unfortunate metaphor.

That treatment having been largely consigned to history as ineffective and inhumane.

Some 10 000 people per year in the U.K. still receive it.