COVID-19: Non-Medical Effects (Responses; Disruptions; Etc.)

Trevp666

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Further to what Cochise says.

I wasn't rubbishing any degrees, nor from any particular bodies. I worked in education so it's not as though I'm scatter gunning for s**ts and giggles, or just in the name of goading anyone, and I don't have any axe to grind. I just plucked 'media studies' out as an example of something entirely unrelated to any role in a hospital. (It was once a running joke that 'media studies' just meant 'sitting at home watching TV')

What I'm objecting to is the type of people that have achieved any type of unrelated/irrelevant certification from any kind of body, and then ending up in a position such as those long-titled, important sounding 'non-roles' such as I indicated, with inflated salaries, with no real ability, or relevant experience, and this is especially abhorrent when it's a position within a public body wherein the salaries are paid by our taxes (or at least all tax payers in the UK).

Clearly and obviously I'm extremely pleased that we have an educational system in this country that produces fine talent, people who go through many levels of educational achievement, gaining GCSEs, A Levels, Degrees, and so on, and take up marvellous positions in the NHS including (but not limited to), Doctors, Nurses, Surgeons, Supply Chain Management, Laboratory workers of all sorts, and all sorts of other clinical and management staff.
But there is indeed, to refer back to (and paraphrase) what Swifty said "...there's a lot of fat that needs to be trimmed off .. there's loads of career focussed 19 year old still strutting on the wards .... .. the NHS is a gravy train to those tools .. "
 

Cochise

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Further to what Cochise says.

I wasn't rubbishing any degrees, nor from any particular bodies. I worked in education so it's not as though I'm scatter gunning for s**ts and giggles, or just in the name of goading anyone, and I don't have any axe to grind. I just plucked 'media studies' out as an example of something entirely unrelated to any role in a hospital. (It was once a running joke that 'media studies' just meant 'sitting at home watching TV')

What I'm objecting to is the type of people that have achieved any type of unrelated/irrelevant certification from any kind of body, and then ending up in a position such as those long-titled, important sounding 'non-roles' such as I indicated, with inflated salaries, with no real ability, or relevant experience, and this is especially abhorrent when it's a position within a public body wherein the salaries are paid by our taxes (or at least all tax payers in the UK).

Clearly and obviously I'm extremely pleased that we have an educational system in this country that produces fine talent, people who go through many levels of educational achievement, gaining GCSEs, A Levels, Degrees, and so on, and take up marvellous positions in the NHS including (but not limited to), Doctors, Nurses, Surgeons, Supply Chain Management, Laboratory workers of all sorts, and all sorts of other clinical and management staff.
But there is indeed, to refer back to (and paraphrase) what Swifty said "...there's a lot of fat that needs to be trimmed off .. there's loads of career focussed 19 year old still strutting on the wards .... .. the NHS is a gravy train to those tools .. "
Happened in the Civil Service too. To the disgust of the longer serving people who often had to work all their lives to make their way up to Higher Executive Officer to find that their posts were being taken by people with Oxbridge degrees who came in as Administrative Trainees and as long as they were neither incontinent nor violent made HEO(A) in three years.

Ooh - was going to get political then. But I have restrained myself. At least i'm not incontinent (yet) - there is still time :)
 

Vardoger

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Paul Joseph Watson talking about the Karens of this world who complains about other people not social distancing. No politics in this video.
 

Naughty_Felid

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Further to what Cochise says.

I wasn't rubbishing any degrees, nor from any particular bodies. I worked in education so it's not as though I'm scatter gunning for s**ts and giggles, or just in the name of goading anyone, and I don't have any axe to grind. I just plucked 'media studies' out as an example of something entirely unrelated to any role in a hospital. (It was once a running joke that 'media studies' just meant 'sitting at home watching TV')

What I'm objecting to is the type of people that have achieved any type of unrelated/irrelevant certification from any kind of body, and then ending up in a position such as those long-titled, important sounding 'non-roles' such as I indicated, with inflated salaries, with no real ability, or relevant experience, and this is especially abhorrent when it's a position within a public body wherein the salaries are paid by our taxes (or at least all tax payers in the UK).

Clearly and obviously I'm extremely pleased that we have an educational system in this country that produces fine talent, people who go through many levels of educational achievement, gaining GCSEs, A Levels, Degrees, and so on, and take up marvellous positions in the NHS including (but not limited to), Doctors, Nurses, Surgeons, Supply Chain Management, Laboratory workers of all sorts, and all sorts of other clinical and management staff.
But there is indeed, to refer back to (and paraphrase) what Swifty said "...there's a lot of fat that needs to be trimmed off .. there's loads of career focussed 19 year old still strutting on the wards .... .. the NHS is a gravy train to those tools .. "
For non-clinical staff who want to go places the NHS offers a low bar but is low pay compared to private companies.

It attracts two types. The youngsters as a fast track to move on to better private positions and those that the private sector did'nt take on. You dont work in the NHS to make money.

People moan about the rise of middle management, (I do it myself), but a lot of this is driven by society and change. IT is massive, legal teams and media teams too, HR and patient safety. Logistics and procurement all this needs a tier that gatekeeps and reports to the higher ups.Governance is huge now.

It makes me laugh that the NHS gets a kicking when every big organisation has identical structures. It also makes me laugh that people think you join the NHS to make money.
 

Trevp666

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There is a lot of money in the NHS for people to make money out of though.
I expect there's plenty of people with scams going too!

It is the 5th largest employer in the world with 1.7m employees (as of 2015).
Behind (in order);
US Dept of Defense
China PLA
Walmart (I was surprised at that one TBH)
and
McDonalds
 

Naughty_Felid

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There is a lot of money in the NHS for people to make money out of though.
I expect there's plenty of people with scams going too!

It is the 5th largest employer in the world with 1.7m employees (as of 2015).
Behind (in order);
US Dept of Defense
China PLA
Walmart (I was surprised at that one TBH)
and
McDonalds
There's bound to be some scams going on but I dont think it's as endemic as people make out.
 

Ogdred Weary

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For non-clinical staff who want to go places the NHS offers a low bar but is low pay compared to private companies.

It attracts two types. The youngsters as a fast track to move on to better private positions and those that the private sector did'nt take on. You dont work in the NHS to make money.

People moan about the rise of middle management, (I do it myself), but a lot of this is driven by society and change. IT is massive, legal teams and media teams too, HR and patient safety. Logistics and procurement all this needs a tier that gatekeeps and reports to the higher ups.Governance is huge now.

It makes me laugh that the NHS gets a kicking when every big organisation has identical structures. It also makes me laugh that people think you join the NHS to make money.
Indeed, humans tend to attempt to fix problems (real or imagined) by creating more complexity- new technology, departments, training etc it's endemic to all institutions and to civilisation itself. We are about to create a whole lot more with this tracing app bollocks.

@Trevp666 I don't necessarily disagree with the gist of what you're saying but can't help but feel you're grasping for a straw man or scapegoat. "Media studies" gets attacked as a token "pointless subject" and perhaps it is. Most degrees do not impart much that is directly useful in the job market or even in life in general and the people who end up doing some job with a bollocks title may have done a "proper" subject like Maths, that some people inherently respect for some reason.
 

Mythopoeika

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Yeah, they're all in on it - I saw them all loading the PPE into their car boots and going down the market!

(No I didn't....I'm joking....I'm joking)
My Mum worked in a hospital for 12 years as a seamstress (a role that has long since been outsourced). In that time, she noticed quite a lot of crime happening.
Uniforms and bedding got nicked regularly and on a few occasions, thieves even wheeled oxygen cylinders out of the building unchallenged.
My Mum suspected some of the staff, but she never witnessed it happening.
That's just one hospital. Scale that up across the entire NHS.
 

Trevp666

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@Trevp666 I don't necessarily disagree with the gist of what you're saying but can't help but feel you're grasping for a straw man or scapegoat. "Media studies" gets attacked as a token "pointless subject" and perhaps it is. Most degrees do not impart much that is directly useful in the job market or even in life in general and the people who end up doing some job with a bollocks title may have done a "proper" subject like Maths, that some people inherently respect for some reason.
Fair comment.
 

Naughty_Felid

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My Mum worked in a hospital for 12 years as a seamstress (a role that has long since been outsourced). In that time, she noticed quite a lot of crime happening.
Uniforms and bedding got nicked regularly and on a few occasions, thieves even wheeled oxygen cylinders out of the building unchallenged.
My Mum suspected some of the staff, but she never witnessed it happening.
That's just one hospital. Scale that up across the entire NHS.
This sort of crap was common up to the 80s but the large scale thieving has vanished. You can thank the accountants for that. Everything is tracked and accounted for. Managers now spend most of their time on budgets. If people are found stealing today they are gone - instant dismissal and escorted off the premises.

Also old uniforms no longer end up in charity shops. That was stopped as they were used to impersonate staff by criminals.
 
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Cochise

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My Mum worked in a hospital for 12 years as a seamstress (a role that has long since been outsourced). In that time, she noticed quite a lot of crime happening.
Uniforms and bedding got nicked regularly and on a few occasions, thieves even wheeled oxygen cylinders out of the building unchallenged.
My Mum suspected some of the staff, but she never witnessed it happening.
That's just one hospital. Scale that up across the entire NHS.
Seamstress. . I won't go there because I'm sure your ma is a splendid person but really?
 

Mythopoeika

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Seamstress. . I won't go there because I'm sure your ma is a splendid person but really?
What are you saying?
Back then, the hospital had a whole department of ladies who did all kinds of alterations to uniforms, made up curtains, repaired surgical gowns, etc. They don't do that stuff any more in the NHS.
She was there for 12 years and knew pretty much everyone who worked there. They told her all kinds of stuff.

Or were you casting aspersions? That'd be out of character for you.
 

Cochise

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This sort of crap was common up to 80s but the large scale thieving has vanished. You can thank the accountants for that. Everything is tracked and accounted for. Managers now spend most of their time on budgets. If people are found stealing today they are gone - instant dismissal and escorted off the premises.

Also old uniforms no longer end up in charity shops. That was stopped as they were used to impersonate staff by criminals.
Accountants? (crosses self, places sacrificial goat on bonfire)

I'd rather have Ghengiz Khan.
 

Cochise

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What are you saying?
Back then, the hospital had a whole department of ladies who did all kinds of alterations to uniforms, made up curtains, repaired surgical gowns, etc. They don't do that stuff any more in the NHS.
She was there for 12 years and knew pretty much everyone who worked there. They told her all kinds of stuff.

Or were you casting aspersions? That'd be out of character for you.
I'm not casting aspersions on your ma. But don't you realise 'seamstress' has been an euphemism for 'ladies of negotiable virtue' for many years? Obviously not always justified.

I can't be doing with the hero worship of the NHS. They are doing a job, that's all, just as I did after 9/11 when my software was used to catalog the body parts - well, not even parts, traces - in Memorial Park. I still remember the appalling smell.
 

Mythopoeika

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I'm not casting aspersions on your ma. But don't you realise 'seamstress' has been an euphemism for 'ladies of negotiable virtue' for many years? Obviously not always justified.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
No, I've never heard of that euphemism at all. Ever.
My Mum was an actual seamstress, not a euphemistic 'seamstress'.
 

Cochise

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Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
No, I've never heard of that euphemism at all. Ever.
My Mum was an actual seamstress, not a euphemistic 'seamstress'.
Well, it's been around at least since Victorian times. Terry Pratchett makes a lot of play on it in his books. ''Seamstress - hem hem '
 

Tempest63

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Hey, you got a problem with accountants?
Mrs T63 and I were on a cruise a few years back and the first night at dinner we shared a table With five or so other couples. First question was the anticipated what do you do for a living. I told them I was a safety manager and then got all the usual “bonkers conkers” stuff and it appeared to be open season on me...until one guy fessed-up to being an accountant. Howls of derision followed and I was off the hook at the expense of the accountant.

I hate dining with people I don’t know and we always opt for private dining, just the two of us, but on this occasion a couple we were with convinced us to try table sharing. Never Again!
 

Frideswide

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Never went to university. None of my friends or family did. Don't know what they do there, but if you've taken a degree in something utterly irrelevant to the job you are applying for should it count for anything?
that would be true only if the subject was (all) you learned!

Look at the Scottish system of the 4 year degree, jealously protected through recent vicissitudes originating outwith the system, where you can do 3 years and get a degree, or add a fourth and get an honours degree. In the first year you take a wide range of subjects - perhaps physics, archaeology, french, media studies and maybe one or two more. In the second year you drop the ones that you didn't like or were not relevant to how your interests are developing. Third year you focus down further, fourth year you get a named degree. The key point is that you are developing. You can also, if you can handle it, take first year courses in later years if you realise you got it wrong and want to specialise differently.

The subject is the medium through which you hone/learn other skills. The other stuff is the education, and you also develop a good knowledge of whatever the subject is.

I don't know about other countries but in the UK there has been a push in recent years to focus on the subject and not the education - a push from outwith the sector I hasten to add. Needing to justify their existence in the new climate, the Universities publicised the vocational aspects. Certainly in Scotland though, they still set out to educate - teaching not training for example.

I've never had a job where the education I got through an archaeology degree hasn't come in. Sometimes the actual subject has been relevant too! :rollingw:
 

ramonmercado

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Step outrside.



I don't see you....
My senior tutor when I was studying systems analysis and systems design hated accountants, used to rant about bean counters!

Ironic though, as I was a certified systems analyst I was able to act as a (low level) EU auditor carrying out transaction payments tests on structural funds expenditure.
 

hunck

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I can't be doing with the hero worship of the NHS. They are doing a job, that's all, just as I did after 9/11 when my software was used to catalog the body parts - well, not even parts, traces - in Memorial Park. I still remember the appalling smell.
I think you're over-egging the pudding. It's not hero worship, just showing appreciation of people doing a difficult job under the circumstances & trying to save lives whilst putting themselves at risk. What's wrong with that?
 

Frideswide

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What I'm objecting to is the type of people that have achieved any type of unrelated/irrelevant certification from any kind of body, and then ending up in a position such as those long-titled, important sounding 'non-roles' such as I indicated, with inflated salaries, with no real ability, or relevant experience, and this is especially abhorrent when it's a position within a public body wherein the salaries are paid by our taxes (or at least all tax payers in the UK).
aren't these people abhorrent whatever crutch they use?

You'll know about the bullying that goes on when some people find out you did post 16 education? Some people have such a chip on their shoulder that they assume that the degree person looks down on them and needs to be taken down a few pegs. It's the equivalent of having shit kicked out of you at school because you answered a question in class and must therefore be an uppity snob. Same nasty attitude, same disinclination to accept that all people are valid humans.

But that isn't because they don't have any tertiary education is it? That is because they are knobs.

How do you feel about literature?

I did a reply to some of @Cochise 's points a few above this - eagerly awaiting your comments! :)
 

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I'm not casting aspersions on your ma. But don't you realise 'seamstress' has been an euphemism for 'ladies of negotiable virtue' for many years? Obviously not always justified.

@Cochise like this....? it's the earliest example that came to mind straight away but it's well worn by that date.

Henry V Act 2 Scene 1

for we cannot lodge and board a dozen or fourteen gentlewomen that live honestly by the prick of their needles but it will be thought we keep a bawdy house straight.
 

Naughty_Felid

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I'm not casting aspersions on your ma. But don't you realise 'seamstress' has been an euphemism for 'ladies of negotiable virtue' for many years? Obviously not always justified.

I can't be doing with the hero worship of the NHS. They are doing a job, that's all, just as I did after 9/11 when my software was used to catalog the body parts - well, not even parts, traces - in Memorial Park. I still remember the appalling smell.
Yes but being a nerd doesnt put you at risk of catching a virus that can kill you. What a meanspirted comment.
 
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