COVID-19: Non-Medical Effects (Responses; Disruptions; Etc.)

Swifty

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I've found it's a pattern that people others normally wouldn't even give the time of day to often rise to the occasion when their backs to the wall .. because they've had to be tough and nasty to survive most of their lives ..
 

Ogdred Weary

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Well I never knew all that murdering and torturing was such a good thing. :thought:
I don't know how "good" or "genuine" the cartels are, they are more violent than conventional companies but conventional companies are content to make decisions that are against the welfare of society at large and their own workers specifically. They are also happy to get into bed with corrupt, violent regimes where it suits them. The laundered money from drugs, prostitution, human trafficking etc bolster banks and prop up economies. The dividing line between organised crime, legal business and their interactions with government is is thin.

I'm not saying they're folk heroes, I'm saying they perhaps aren't much worse than many other corporations.
 

AnonyJoolz

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I don't know how "good" or "genuine" the cartels are, they are more violent than conventional companies but conventional companies are content to make decisions that are against the welfare of society at large and their own workers specifically. They are also happy to get into bed with corrupt, violent regimes where it suits them. The laundered money from drugs, prostitution, human trafficking etc bolster banks and prop up economies. The dividing line between organised crime, legal business and their interactions with government is is thin.

I'm not saying they're folk heroes, I'm saying they perhaps aren't much worse than many other corporations.
I think that there's an element of looking after your own 'manor' to use 1960s London gangster talk.

Without the collusion of locals, most of the gangs couldn't operate as efficiently, maybe? The big (cartel) guys are/were an alternative welfare and police system in many places, I am thinking of the northern Irish unofficial justice meted out by men both sides of the conflict, the semi-mythical security of the East End 1950-1970 and the height of the Italian-American Mafia in places like New Jersey. Maybe some of the cartel members also have a social conscience - given that most drugs flow north to the richer countries?- and perhaps the two occupations are not mutually exclusive.
 

Ogdred Weary

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I think that there's an element of looking after your own 'manor' to use 1960s London gangster talk.

Without the collusion of locals, most of the gangs couldn't operate as efficiently, maybe? The big (cartel) guys are/were an alternative welfare and police system in many places, I am thinking of the northern Irish unofficial justice meted out by men both sides of the conflict, the semi-mythical security of the East End 1950-1970 and the height of the Italian-American Mafia in places like New Jersey. Maybe some of the cartel members also have a social conscience - given that most drugs flow north to the richer countries?- and perhaps the two occupations are not mutually exclusive.
Indeed, my uncle was given money and a thank you by gangsters in South East London for cooking Christmas dinner for the homeless, many years ago. The book Freaknomics makes the comparison between practices and organisation between drug dealers and McDonalds in the U.S. it's not specific to McDs, it could be any substantial business.
 

McAvennie

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...punished him for the deadly sin of sloth and turned him into a “Jabba the Hutt-like-monster” who vomited blood until he had a heart attack, the outlet reported last week.
Wondering what the timeframe was for this process.
 

EnolaGaia

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Now that the doctors have been wrestling with the COVID-19 pandemic for months it's time for the lawyers to get in on the act ...
Businesses ask patrons to waive right to sue if they get ill

As businesses reopen across the U.S. after coronavirus shutdowns, many are requiring customers and workers to sign forms saying they won’t sue if they catch COVID-19.

Businesses fear they could be the target of litigation even if they adhere to safety precautions from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and state health officials. But workers’ rights groups say the forms force employees to sign away their rights should they get sick. ...
FULL STORY: https://apnews.com/62c2ed6ebc0dc3528718dd4197478667
 

Ladyloafer

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Not sure if this is the best thread but anyway

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2...use-reopens-with-concert-for-plants-barcelona

Spanish opera house reopens with concert for plants

Well aware of the need to return with a spectacle as grabby as a venus flytrap, the Catalan venue has announced a concert for 2,292 plants when it reopens next Monday. Non-vegetable music fans will also be able to enjoy the performance as it will be livestreamed.

1114.jpg
 

Cochise

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I don't know why they are going on about how good it is to get the Premier League back. What do they think is going to happen when Liverpool win, particularly if it is at the Everton v Liverpool derby at the weekend? Why is this government completely unable to anticipate problems? :headbang:
 

ramonmercado

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Not sure if this is the best thread but anyway

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2...use-reopens-with-concert-for-plants-barcelona

Spanish opera house reopens with concert for plants

Well aware of the need to return with a spectacle as grabby as a venus flytrap, the Catalan venue has announced a concert for 2,292 plants when it reopens next Monday. Non-vegetable music fans will also be able to enjoy the performance as it will be livestreamed.

View attachment 27315
I hope the Triffids behave themselves and don't devour the musicians.
 

Yithian

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Naughty_Felid

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https://www.theguardian.com/society...irate-after-nhs-frontline-contracts-cut-short

It didn't take long to crap on our future NHS nurses. Still I guess they are learning sooner rather than later that's it's a shitty profession to get into.


Student nurses who joined the NHS frontline in England months before their training ended in order to join the fight against Covid-19 have voiced anger after contracts were terminated earlier than they expected as the pandemic comes under control.

As nursing unions called on the government to offer clarity for those affected, the shadow health secretary, Jonathan Ashworth, told parliament that student nurses who joined the frontline six months ago as part of the coronavirus effort were seeing their paid placement schemes terminated early, leaving them with no income.

“Surely this is no way to treat student nursing staff,” he told the health secretary, Matt Hancock.
 

EnolaGaia

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Now that the FDA has rescinded its emergency allowance for hydroxychloroquine the USA is now the proud owner of 69 million stockpiled doses they can't use for COVID-19 patients.
US stockpile stuck with 63 million doses of hydroxychloroquine

The federal government is stuck with 63 million doses of hydroxychloroquine now that the US Food and Drug Administration has revoked permission for the drug to be distributed to treat coronavirus patients.

The government started stockpiling donated hydroxychloroquine in late March, after President Trump touted it as "very encouraging" and "very powerful" and a "game-changer."

But Monday, the FDA revoked its emergency use authorization to use the drug to treat Covid-19, saying there was "no reason to believe" the drug was effective against the virus, and that it increased the risk of side effects, including heart problems.

That leaves the Strategic National Stockpile with 63 million doses of hydroxychloroquine, plus another 2 million doses of chloroquine, a related drug donated by Bayer, according to Carol Danko, a spokesperson for the US Department of Health and Human Services. ...
FULL STORY: https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/17/health/hydroxychloroquine-national-stockpile/index.html
 

Trevp666

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I doubt the US FDA is that concerned about it - they'll probably just flog them to whichever country is affected by a massive malaria outbreak in a few months. It won't, of course, be engineered by some covert operation by the US military in order to generate a demand for their drugs. :wink2:
 

Swifty

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https://www.theguardian.com/society...irate-after-nhs-frontline-contracts-cut-short

It didn't take long to crap on our future NHS nurses. Still I guess they are learning sooner rather than later that's it's a shitty profession to get into.


Student nurses who joined the NHS frontline in England months before their training ended in order to join the fight against Covid-19 have voiced anger after contracts were terminated earlier than they expected as the pandemic comes under control.

As nursing unions called on the government to offer clarity for those affected, the shadow health secretary, Jonathan Ashworth, told parliament that student nurses who joined the frontline six months ago as part of the coronavirus effort were seeing their paid placement schemes terminated early, leaving them with no income.

“Surely this is no way to treat student nursing staff,” he told the health secretary, Matt Hancock.
I've just sent your link to my Sister, she isn't a student nurse but she works alongside them and hasn't got a lot of spare time to get online.
 

Lobeydosser

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Well, Scottish gov has delayed the opening of beer gardens and the like - however I'm hearing and have seen lots of pubs and hotels just ignoring this and having " takeaway" - https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/lewis-capaldi-south-side-strathbungo-18446208
Thing is, drinking in the street is illegal in Glasgow - so how does Mr Capaldi there carry his pint home - hmm ?
I suspect Government both national and regional is losing or has lost control of this now and we will see more changing of the rules to match what is actually happening - eg I fully expect 1 metre to replace 2 metres not on scientific grounds - but, because they havent a hope in hell of enforcing it.
 

Min Bannister

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Well, Scottish gov has delayed the opening of beer gardens and the like - however I'm hearing and have seen lots of pubs and hotels just ignoring this and having " takeaway" - https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/lewis-capaldi-south-side-strathbungo-18446208
Thing is, drinking in the street is illegal in Glasgow - so how does Mr Capaldi there carry his pint home - hmm ?
I suspect Government both national and regional is losing or has lost control of this now and we will see more changing of the rules to match what is actually happening - eg I fully expect 1 metre to replace 2 metres not on scientific grounds - but, because they havent a hope in hell of enforcing it.
In a brown paper bag like everyone else. :D
 

Yithian

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There's perhaps less humour in this than is standard for the show, but this episode of Last Week Tonight makes some searing points about the spread of Covid in prisons in the U.S.

 

Ladyloafer

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There's perhaps less humour in this than is standard for the show, but this episode of Last Week Tonight makes some searing points about the spread of Covid in prisons in the U.S.

Thats saying not available to watch in the uk :(
 

Ermintruder

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I suspect Government both national and regional is losing or has lost control of this now and we will see more changing of the rules to match what is actually happening - eg I fully expect 1 metre to replace 2 metres not on scientific grounds - but, because they havent a hope in hell of enforcing it
Numerous mainstream reports summarise the inarguable fact that there is no absolute scientific basis upon which 2 metre is being applied. Or its international 1.5 and 1.0 metre varients.

I heard a news quote over the weekend (which I'll try and locate/cite) that going down from 2 metres to 1 metre social distancing "increases the risk of infection tenfold" (I would really like to see this statement defended via experimental data).

This is one of the many utterly-unacceptable paradoxes about the Covid-19 pan(dem)ic.

Either there is an actual consensus scientic justification regarding these types of restrictions, or there isn't.

The UK and other Governments cannot say on one hand that maintained physical distancing of a stated seperation is essential to prevent the spread of infection, and then say that 'in order to restart the economy' or, to enable the practical recommencement of education processes, that the previously-stated seperation can just be harmlessly reduced. Either it's a quantifiable risk that needs to be compensated for, or it's not.

There are far FAR too many contradictions & inconsistencies across this entire saga, right the way from beginning to the present.

Speaking as someone who has spent their entire life working in science & technology, I am seriously-concerned about every aspect of this pandemic: not in terms of its actual severity or direct impact, but more regarding;
  • the total lack of consistency in response strategies (eg....'we will introduce a traveller quarantine...but 10 weeks after it was required....but we shall exempt certain countries/worker categories, because...well, just because')
  • the apparent absence of any meaningful analysis (if there has been any, it certainly maintains a low profile)
  • An oft-heard quote at the beginning of the saga was "It is a brand-new threat- we have much to learn". And we have learnt precisely what so far?
  • subjectivity constantly masquerading as objectivity, but specifically:
  • changes at the second decimal place to an inferential/derivative totemic reproduction number that has more contributory variables than can ever make it more than the rough modelling quotient that it ever was
I am not taking cheap shots at a well-intentioned over-cautious monolith of governmental diligence: I am struggling to find a single aspect of this entire experience so far that makes even the slightest sense.

The world in its previous 2019 form (in terms of human society, and economies) is ending. It was far from perfect, but we are all now headed for a collective crunch of unknown dimensions.

The fact that we've still got the lights on and food in the fridge is due to momentum....

How can countries such as the USA have unemployment totals possibly more than three times those seen during the Great Depressions of the 1920s&30s, and nations such as the UK be facing an economic downturn taking it back to perhaps a 1960s/ post-WW2 level of austerity, and there NOT be a massive impact upon in particular the western world?

More than happy to be told that I'm totally over-reacting.

That things are nowhere near as bad as I'm seeing them, that government at all levels, everywhere has this broadly under control, and is behaving proportionately & effectively.

Please....do tell me all that is froth & nonsense. But do so with fact, & not faith.
 
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Robbrent

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Numerous mainstream reports summarise the inarguable fact that there is no absolute scientific basis upon which 2 metre is being applied. Or its international 1.5 and 1.0 metre varients.

I heard a news quote over the weekend (which I'll try and locate/cite) that going down from 2 metres to 1 metre social distancing "increases the risk of infection tenfold" (I would really like to see this statement defended via experimental data).

This is one of the many utterly-unacceptable paradoxes about the Covid-19 pan(dem)ic.

Either there is an actual consensus scientic justification regarding these types of restrictions, or there isn't.

The UK and other Governments cannot say on one hand that maintained physical distancing of a stated seperation is essential to prevent the spread of infection, and then say that 'in order to restart the economy' or, to enable the practical recommencement of education processes, that the previously-stated seperation can just be harmlessly reduced. Either it's a quantifiable risk that needs to be compensated for, or it's not.

There are far FAR too many contradictions & inconsistencies across this entire saga, right the way from beginning to the present.

Speaking as someone who has spent their entire life working in science & technology, I am seriously-concerned about every aspect of this pandemic: not in terms of its actual severity or direct impact, but more regarding;
  • the total lack of consistency in response strategies (eg....'we will introduce a traveller quarantine...but 10 weeks after it was required....but we shall exempt certain countries/worker categories, because...well, just because')
  • the apparent absence of any meaningful analysis (if there has been any, it certainly maintains a low profile)
  • An oft-heard quote at the beginning of the saga was "It is a brand-new threat- we have much to learn". And we have learnt precisely what so far?
  • subjectivity constantly masquerading as objectivity, but specifically:
  • changes at the second decimal place to an inferential/derivative totemic reproduction number that has more contributory variables than can ever make it more than the rough modelling quotient that it ever was
I am not taking cheap shots at a well-intentioned over-cautious monolith of governmental diligence: I am struggling to find a single aspect of this entire experience so far that makes even the slightest sense.

The world in its previous 2019 form (in terms of human society, and economies) is ending. It was far from perfect, but we are all now headed for a collective crunch of unknown dimensions.

The fact that we've still got the lights on and food in the fridge is due to momentum....

How can countries such as the USA have unemployment totals possibly more than three times those seen during the Great Depressions of the 1920s&30s, and nations such as the UK be facing an economic downturn taking it back to perhaps a 1960s/ post-WW2 level of austerity, and there NOT be a massive impact upon in particular the western world?

More than happy to be told that I'm totally over-reacting.

That things are nowhere near as bad as I'm seeing them, that government at all levels, everywhere has this broadly under control, and is behaving proportionately & effectively.

Please....do tell me all that is froth & nonsense. But do so with fact, & not faith.
I think you are over reacting to an extent, however I think we may now be moving into a stage of living with this for the time being, with a vaccine being rushed through towards October who knows there does not appear to be an answer for the modern world.lock down manages to suppress the virus, but it seems as soon as measures are lifted it will come back

But there have been some positives out of it all the natural world has certainly seen a benefit
 

EnolaGaia

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Numerous mainstream reports summarise the inarguable fact that there is no absolute scientific basis upon which 2 metre is being applied. Or its international 1.5 and 1.0 metre varients. ...
Serious scrutiny of disease propagation countermeasures can only occur once the possible vectors are known, and the possible transmission vectors for COVID-19 have taken months to determine.

To the limited extent detailed research results have become available the most common theme is that 2m distancing may not be enough (as opposed to overkill). Consider this paragraph from a June 2020 article that's one of the first omnibus surveys of the available evidence on droplets transmission:

In general, there exists an accepted notion of a 2-m safe exclusion zone to prevent possible droplet transmission from an infected person to a susceptible host; however, there are no comprehensive studies to support such a phenomenon. Wells (1934) has supported the 2-m exclusion zone concept taking into account the evaporation-falling curve. Wells (1934) has postulated that large droplets (> 100 μm) will fall to the floor within a horizontal distance of 2 m from the source. Simple calculations, assumptions, and inadequate empirical data of Wells's study have been later speculated by Xie et al. (2007). Xie et al. (2007) have corroborated that for respiratory exhalation flows, the larger droplets (diameter between 60 μm and 100 μm) were, depending on the exhalation air velocity and relative humidity of the air, carried away for more than 6 m of horizontal distance with the exhaled air having a velocity of 50 m/s at the point of expiration (Fig. 2 a). Such scenarios simulate sneezing events. Conversely, larger droplets were found to carry for more than 2 m afar at a velocity of 10 m/s reordered at the point of exit, simulating coughing bouts (Fig. 2b). The same for exhaling events for which the velocity is at 1 m/s was found to carry large droplets only up to about 1 m horizontally (Fig. 2c). Other studies also have proven that when an infected person of a respiratory illness coughs or sneezes, a cloud of pathogen-bearing droplets of different sizes appears to come out and travels even up to 7–8 m from the point of source (Bourouiba et al., 2014; Bourouiba, 2016).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7293495/
 

cycleboy2

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Numerous mainstream reports summarise the inarguable fact that there is no absolute scientific basis upon which 2 metre is being applied. Or its international 1.5 and 1.0 metre varients.

I heard a news quote over the weekend (which I'll try and locate/cite) that going down from 2 metres to 1 metre social distancing "increases the risk of infection tenfold" (I would really like to see this statement defended via experimental data).

This is one of the many utterly-unacceptable paradoxes about the Covid-19 pan(dem)ic.

Either there is an actual consensus scientic justification regarding these types of restrictions, or there isn't.

The UK and other Governments cannot say on one hand that maintained physical distancing of a stated seperation is essential to prevent the spread of infection, and then say that 'in order to restart the economy' or, to enable the practical recommencement of education processes, that the previously-stated seperation can just be harmlessly reduced. Either it's a quantifiable risk that needs to be compensated for, or it's not.

There are far FAR too many contradictions & inconsistencies across this entire saga, right the way from beginning to the present.

Speaking as someone who has spent their entire life working in science & technology, I am seriously-concerned about every aspect of this pandemic: not in terms of its actual severity or direct impact, but more regarding;
  • the total lack of consistency in response strategies (eg....'we will introduce a traveller quarantine...but 10 weeks after it was required....but we shall exempt certain countries/worker categories, because...well, just because')
  • the apparent absence of any meaningful analysis (if there has been any, it certainly maintains a low profile)
  • An oft-heard quote at the beginning of the saga was "It is a brand-new threat- we have much to learn". And we have learnt precisely what so far?
  • subjectivity constantly masquerading as objectivity, but specifically:
  • changes at the second decimal place to an inferential/derivative totemic reproduction number that has more contributory variables than can ever make it more than the rough modelling quotient that it ever was
I am not taking cheap shots at a well-intentioned over-cautious monolith of governmental diligence: I am struggling to find a single aspect of this entire experience so far that makes even the slightest sense.

The world in its previous 2019 form (in terms of human society, and economies) is ending. It was far from perfect, but we are all now headed for a collective crunch of unknown dimensions.

The fact that we've still got the lights on and food in the fridge is due to momentum....

How can countries such as the USA have unemployment totals possibly more than three times those seen during the Great Depressions of the 1920s&30s, and nations such as the UK be facing an economic downturn taking it back to perhaps a 1960s/ post-WW2 level of austerity, and there NOT be a massive impact upon in particular the western world?

More than happy to be told that I'm totally over-reacting.

That things are nowhere near as bad as I'm seeing them, that government at all levels, everywhere has this broadly under control, and is behaving proportionately & effectively.

Please....do tell me all that is froth & nonsense. But do so with fact, & not faith.
The factoid (for want of a better expression) that intrigues me, is that the UK held Exercise Cygnus in 2016 and seemed to learn diddly squat; by contrast and at around the same time, Tesco simulated a situation in which they were unable to use their head office, a 'doomsday' management scenario. I think it's fair to say which organisation learnt from their war-gaming.

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-exercise-helped-it-cope-with-the-coronavirus

And prior to the Covid-19 Pandemic, the countries that ranked highest in their preparedness for a pandemic were, wait for it, the USA and the UK. That said, in many metrics the US's health system in particular has a lot in common with that of an 'undeveloped' country. I'll look that up later.

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-exercise-helped-it-cope-with-the-coronavirus
 

Cochise

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Well, Scottish gov has delayed the opening of beer gardens and the like - however I'm hearing and have seen lots of pubs and hotels just ignoring this and having " takeaway" - https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/lewis-capaldi-south-side-strathbungo-18446208
Thing is, drinking in the street is illegal in Glasgow - so how does Mr Capaldi there carry his pint home - hmm ?
I suspect Government both national and regional is losing or has lost control of this now and we will see more changing of the rules to match what is actually happening - eg I fully expect 1 metre to replace 2 metres not on scientific grounds - but, because they havent a hope in hell of enforcing it.
In Liverpool they are selling takeaway drinks in plastic 'glasses' with covers on. You are OK if you don't take the lid off.
 
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