CUBA

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Anonymous

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#1
yesterday i watched the Stone documentry on castro. He chatted to the old guy for seemingly hours... now the ususal view is that hes a nutcase..he seemed to be a plain speeking, funny old guy with high morals.... so whos right?.. has the view of him been eternaly colourd by the Us's seemingly rabid hatred of him and his country ..maybe for haveing the temerity to rob them of a playground... personaly i think the embrago of Cuba has had the effect of keeping it comunist... maybe thats what the US wants?
 

wembley8

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#2
"now the ususal view is that hes a nutcase"

Haven't heard that one. AFAIK the exiles and co just think he's evil.

" personaly i think the embrago of Cuba has had the effect of keeping it comunist... maybe thats what the US wants"

Bizarre, but it certainly seems to have that effect. Unfortunately, any lessening of sanctions will annoy the exiles - one million votes in a key state (remember which one won it for GWB last time?).
A tragedy for Cuba - which is still doing better than many countries in the region.
 

Philo_T

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#4
sidecar_jon said:
in what way?...in a "He took our casino" sort of way?..or is it more fundimental?
Oh come on, you can't be that ingenous. More like "He took our home" or "He took our family business". The original wave of exiles lost quite a bit when they fled. Granted, under the old regime, Cuba wasn't a bastion of fairness and honesty.

If you believe the stereotype, the Marielitos mostly didn't have anything to lose when they left. It used to be two different demographics. I don't know if that's changed over time or not.



¡vive el Conch Republic! (Damn, I just put myself on the Jim Bell list... Stupid INS.)
 
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Anonymous

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#5
sorry i dont know anything much about Cuba and its history..i gues its a big thing in the US tho... From the film i saw there didnt seem to have been any terrible things happening in Cuba at lest not now.. and Castro said that Torture etc was fundimentaly against his way of doing things... people still try to get away tho...is that to get to bright lights etc ?... few weeks ago i saw a littl enews clip about the people prepareing for a new invasion of Cuba...they looked to have been prepairing by eating a lot and getting drunk and fireing off (probably US government funded) guns at targets.
 

wembley8

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#6
"in what way?...in a "He took our casino" sort of way?..or is it more fundimental?"

The man's a Commie - of course he's evil! And he took our casino too...
 

wembley8

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#7
"From the film i saw there didnt seem to have been any terrible things happening in Cuba at lest not now.."

Well, there's a few human rights abuses in Cuba, but it's arguable.

"they looked to have been prepairing by eating a lot and getting drunk and fireing off (probably US government funded) guns at targets."

The boys have been doing that for forty years.Keeps them out of trouble. Look what happened last time they invaded...

But if there wasn't this external threat, Castro would be a lot weaker.
 

Philo_T

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#8
It's hard to tell how much of Cuba's current problems are due to Communism and how much are due to the US's embargo of them. I suspect a little from column A and a little from column B. From what I've seen happening in the last 10 years, it seems that some things have improved.

Still not a place I'd like to have to live. A pity, because it looks like it's a lovely country, if you ignore the poverty of the population. (Which is what the Americans did before the revolution... :devil:...)


I agree with Wembley in that the US's refusual to comprimise with Castro has probably helped keep him in power longer than if they had adopted a policy of benign neglect. Castro's getting pretty old, and I haven't seen any signs of him making plans to continue his legacy after he's gone. There's a lot of American companies (particularly in Florida) chomping at the bit to expand into that untapped market. And a lot of Canadian and Mexican (and others from the Western hemisphere...) that have beat them to it.
 
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Anonymous

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#9
It will indeed be interesting when the old guy dies.. whats going to happen?..maybe nothing much lol... they dont seem to terrorise thier population which is more than many nearbye countries... Ok so Hes a commie and he took the casions but were there any other options, i think not. Like i said he seemed a quite wise old bird to me. But then maybe anyone would with the right direction.
 

The late Pete Younger

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#10
Well, it seems his daughter doesn't think too highly of him.

Ed Vulliamy in Havana
Sunday March 24, 2002
The Observer

A savage new voice of opposition to Fidel Castro's regime is being beamed into Havana from a Miami radio station. The owner of that voice is Fidel's daughter.
Over the past month Alina Fernández Revuelta has become the latest talk-show host to hit the cacophonous airwaves in Cuba's fin-de-communist epoch.

'Buenas noches, amigos' - good evening, friends - she kicks off the show, entitled Simplemente Alina - Simply Alina. The programme makes no mention of who she is - 'people just know,' she says.

Of all the dissidents hovering over Castro's final years, Fernández may be among the most damaging. 'I do not refer to Mr Castro as my father,' says Fernández. 'I do not love him, I am his exile.'

Fernández's opposition to her father's regime is the stuff of heated family drama. It is also the story of the child who came to hate her father and everything that he represented, and defected to ally herself with his bitterest enemies, a group that has for years plotted in Miami for his downfall.

Disgusted with Cuban politics as a young woman, Fernández joined the opposition, only to find herself persecuted by her father's government. She defected to the US in 1993, travelling on a false Spanish passport and heavily disguised via Madrid, before introducing herself to the Cuban exile opposition - literally, across a table in its unofficial headquarters, the Versailles restaurant in Miami's Little Havana.

In 1997 Fernández published a memoir describing visits by her father engulfed in 'stinking' cigar smoke and his omnipotent presence in her early life. She recalls one box-wrapped gift of a doll for her to play with: of himself, with full beard, military fatigues, red star epaulettes, cap and boots.

The emergence of the soft-spoken Fernández as the new star of Cuba's exile radio comes hot on the heels of the revelation last year that Castro had another love-child, Francisca Pupo, also living in Miami.

Fernández was also born illegitimately, the fruit of a summer fling between Castro and a Havana socialite, Natalya Revuelta, while both were married. She communicates only by letter with her mother and is harshly denounced by her aunt - Castro's sister, Juanita Castro, who also lives in Miami.

'I would like to be in touch with family members' in Havana, Fernández says, 'but I just can't do it, I'm the enemy. It's ridiculous, but that's the way it is.'

In the dynastic politics of Cuba, the personal is political. When Castro dies, his brother Raúl, Defence Minister, is slated to take over.

Fernández is of a younger generation, and at 46 is unhappy with the way her father and his relations have kept power. She is 'doing whatever I can to spread the reality of life in Cuba'.

Last week Fernández - whose show began six weeks ago - led a debate on how Mexico handed back to the authorities a bus-load of asylum-seekers who poured into its Havana embassy. 'We cannot forget what happens to Cubans who have been returned to the regime,' she said.

Another show gathered together survivors of the infamous Mariel boatlift in 1980 of 125,000 refugees, her guests recounting their ordeals at home and at sea. She has even invited members of the hated right-wing Cuban American National Federation on to her programme.

Her hope for change, she says, lies in 'democracy, not charismatic leaders, because some dynamic leaders become dictators', she says. 'Gandhi was a good leader. Nehru was a good leader. But Fidel has ruined his own country. My generation has been the victim of the manipulation of Cuban history.'
 
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Anonymous

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#11
"It is also the story of the child who came to hate her father and everything that he represented,".
Many children have found themselves in that position... maybe just the petualnt raveings of a spoilt brat?... i dont know..im interested in just what hes soposed to have done?..any atrocity report?..any mass slaughter?.. just what is life like for an average Cuban?.. (setting aside the embargo fueled poverty).. is it a grey joyless place?... is it mega opressive?...is it any worse than it was before?... gota be better than say Haitie?
 
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Anonymous

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#12
"It is also the story of the child who came to hate her father and everything that he represented,".
Many children have found themselves in that position... maybe just the petualnt raveings of a spoilt brat?... i dont know..im interested in just what hes soposed to have done?..any atrocity report?..any mass slaughter?.. just what is life like for an average Cuban?.. (setting aside the embargo fueled poverty).. is it a grey joyless place?... is it mega opressive?...is it any worse than it was before?... gota be better than say Haitie?..certainly the ailing Marado wants to go back as soon as his family stops forcably haveing him detained in hospital.....and if hes got such a bad, and well known drug habit, how does he get them? Hemingway liked it...
 

wembley8

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#13
"Still not a place I'd like to have to live. A pity, because it looks like it's a lovely country, if you ignore the poverty of the population."

!!! I was gobsmacked to read this. I have seen far less poverty in Cuba than in any other Latin American country - and a total absence of the real shanty-town-type poverty that plagues much of the rest of the region.
Not too many BMWs, true - but nobody starves or goes homeless or without medical care, and that's worth a LOT in this world.
 
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Anonymous

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#14
indeed...i know someone who sailed there and described it as a pardise with lovely welcoming people and abundant food..especiely Lobsters which they caught and eat every day..
 

Philo_T

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#15
Keep in mind that I'm in the United States. What I see about the country may be a bit slanted.

The bit that I explicitly remember is scenes in Havana (hell, the reporter probably never left the city...). The urban environment was pretty decrepit and the people seemed pretty poor (by American standards, not by say, Angolan standards.)

Once again, part of that is a result of the US embargo. And possibly the people in the rest of the country are doing better. (It's an old story, population migrates to the cities for better opportunities, and ends up worse off than when they were back on the farm.)
 
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Anonymous

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#16
what i noticed si the cars...either very old American cars or Mercedes (some merc vans too)... i wonder how they got there!
 

wembley8

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#17
I think it was mainly old Russian cars when I was there - plus lots and lots ot vans, trucks, tractors and a few horse-drawn carts.

The Cuban govt has taken to buying up those great old US cars for resale at a hefty profit....rather sad, but they need the cash!
 

wembley8

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#18
"Keep in mind that I'm in the United States. What I see about the country may be a bit slanted."

A bit! Haven't found many pro-Castro types in the US.
You really have to visit the country and read a bit to get a view.


"The bit that I explicitly remember is scenes in Havana (hell, the reporter probably never left the city...). The urban environment was pretty decrepit and the people seemed pretty poor (by American standards, not by say, Angolan standards.) "

Well, compared to the slums of Mexico City or Caracas (or in fact any third world city), the Habanero poor are doing pretty well.
Some would argue better than their US counterparts - however, they don't have the possibility of wealth that so many Americans believe to be important.

I met a farmer who was complaining about how hard life was - noting his extensive farm (corn, tobacco, tomotoes, some horses he rented to tourists) and the fact that his two daughters were at college (one training to be a doctor), I decided that it's all comparative...
 
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Anonymous

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#19
Wow, I take it there aren't any students around to explain this one.

On Jan. 1, 1959 Castro took control of Cuba from the former dictator Fulgencio Batista after several years of guerilla warfare. While americans thought that this would usher in a new democratic era in Cuba their thoughts were stopped short when the american press televised the trials and executions of the former rulers. Because the U.S. denied Castro the loans and military aid he requested when he and his army were trying to overthrow Batista, Castro began redistributing lands controlled by the U.S. Eisenhower didn't really like this and in turn began embargoes against Cuba. With the fiscal problems of his new government Castro entered an agreement to trade Soviet oil for Cuban sugar. The Soviets had quickly put their foot in the door. The Cubans then seized 3 British-American refineries that were refusing to refine Soviet oil. Eisenhower then almost completely cut off all imports of Cuban sugar. Krushchev responded by saying "any military intervention in Cuba would encounter Soviet rockets." The U.S. cut off all imports of cuban sugar and just about everything else. As one of Eisenhower's last acts he suspended all diplomatic relations with Cuba. All of this leads us to the Cuban Missile Crisis. (If you don't know about this one tell me and I'll give you all the details).

Just because someone interviews well doesn't mean that they are a benevolant leader (just look at Bill Clinton) and really Castro is so old you really can't compare him to what he was. He has kept his people oppressed and suppressed. If cuba is so nice and livable then why to so many of its citizens ride hand-made rafts to the U.S.?
 
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Anonymous

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#20
chrisford said:
He has kept his people oppressed and suppressed. If cuba is so nice and livable then why to so many of its citizens ride hand-made rafts to the U.S.?
in what way?..where are the mass graves?..where are thier film clips of supressed riots?... where i want to know... BTW Cuban missile crisis maybe the Ruskies didnt like the fact that USA nukes got stationed in Turkey (after the crisis removed as part of the deal)
 

Dennis_De_Bacle

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#21
chrisford said:
...If cuba is so nice and livable then why to so many of its citizens ride hand-made rafts to the U.S.?
Some of them are hoping to get a better job, in much the same way that Mexicans ride in cramped conditions to get to get to the US.
 

GNC

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#22
Is it true that Cuba has the highest rate of literacy in the Developing World?
 

chockfullahate

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#23
i am meant to be attending a wedding in cuba, and the reaction of our friends down in the US embassy was one of at first bemusement, then threats of arrest when i step back foot on american soil if i go there. The cubans on the other hand stated quite happily, "we don't have a problem with america, america have a problem with us.".
 
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Anonymous

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#24
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by chrisford
...If cuba is so nice and livable then why to so many of its citizens ride hand-made rafts to the U.S.?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Uh, yeah, that was a rhetorical questio.
 

wembley8

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#26
"If cuba is so nice and livable then why to so many of its citizens ride hand-made rafts to the U.S.?"

Yeah, it's not like anyone travels illegally to the US from Mexico, Central and South America or anywhere else, is it? No, just Cubans.

Just like hundreds of thousands of Brits who flee the oppressive government to settle in the Costa del Sol - no other explanation possible...
 
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Anonymous

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#27
i am interested in why people leave Cuba too... it does sugest it isnt paradise at least for some. As the program pointed out in the cedits some people tried to hijack a freey soon after the recording and at least some of them were exicuted..tho i have a vague recolection the hijack was of a violent nature.
 

wembley8

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#28
"i am interested in why people leave Cuba too... it does sugest it isnt paradise at least for some"

You can't be rich in Cuba. So if you want to be rich, especially if you have negotiable skill, like any other LatinoAmerican you head out for the rich land in the North where the streets are paved with gold.
 
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Anonymous

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#30
i just saw a program about Sam Giancana...the rather nasty gangster... seems he was tied up with trying to kill Castro... maybe the still running vendeta agaisnt Cuba has somthing to do with the long memeories of the Mafia and its intimate government relationships... as Castro stoped their drugs/prostitution and aparentyl big abortion clinics on Cuba.
 
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