• We have updated the guidelines regarding posting political content: please see the stickied thread on Website Issues.

CUBA

Quake42 said:
Would I jail people that try to blow up aeroplanes and Tube trains? Absolutely. Calling such individuals "activists", as though they were asking people to sign a petition outside of Tescos, is disingenuous to say the least. ?

I thought you were opposed Islamists who advocated overthrowing the government generally, even if they were not involved in violence? That's the situation in Cuba.

Quake42 said:
I do accept your points re: lower infant mortality, better healthcare etc in Cuba. But it's still not clear why this obviates the need for basic democratic rights. After all, if Castro has really created this socialist paradise, surely he would be voted back into power in a heartbeat? What exactly does he have to be afraid of?

A gigantic and extremely well-funded campaign against him engineered by outside agencies? Look at Nicaragua - or Chile. As Kissinger said of Chile, the selection of the government of Cuba is too important for the US for it to be left to the Cuban people.

A more general problem is what would happen if you simply open it up - sleazy politicians simply offer to carve up the welfare state, sell it off and distribute the profits. Lots of short-term money for the people (and the few who get the business), grief int he longer run. See also 'Russia' under this heading - or in fact much of Eastern Europe.

A democratic transition will have to be handled carefully if it is not to result in a disaster, but I don't know if anyone has the nerve for it.
 
wembley8 said:
A gigantic and extremely well-funded campaign against him engineered by outside agencies? Look at Nicaragua - or Chile. As Kissinger said of Chile, the selection of the government of Cuba is too important for the US for it to be left to the Cuban people.

A more general problem is what would happen if you simply open it up - sleazy politicians simply offer to carve up the welfare state, sell it off and distribute the profits. Lots of short-term money for the people (and the few who get the business), grief int he longer run. See also 'Russia' under this heading - or in fact much of Eastern Europe.

A democratic transition will have to be handled carefully if it is not to result in a disaster, but I don't know if anyone has the nerve for it.

i'm not really sure that america has any interest in cuba other than the bitter residue of the last 50 years. strategically, economically and militarily it offers little in the way of threat or promise. i suppose it's feasible that they could spend big to influence the result but i'm not sure how that would work. the fact that the ruling party has had the benefit of so many years of propaganda would likely serve as a useful counterweight.

also the idea that opportunist politicians are sleazy and less desirable than ones who remain unaccountable seems a little odd. additionally with reference to russia and eastern europe: it's the countries that have the most open and transparent democracies that have higher standards of living than ones who inherited a legacy of dictatorship from the soviets. what evidence is there that more freedom and democracy is likely to produce lower standards than less?
 
I thought you were opposed Islamists who advocated overthrowing the government generally, even if they were not involved in violence? That's the situation in Cuba.

Yes, I oppose them but I recognise their right to express their views peacefully. That's not the situation in Cuba.
 
Quake42 said:
I thought you were opposed Islamists who advocated overthrowing the government generally, even if they were not involved in violence? That's the situation in Cuba.

Yes, I oppose them but I recognise their right to express their views peacefully. That's not the situation in Cuba.
You certainly wouldn't have to worry too much about Islamic fundamentalist terrorists in Cuba. Another holiday destination plus! :)
 
Pietro_Mercurios said:
Quake42 said:
I thought you were opposed Islamists who advocated overthrowing the government generally, even if they were not involved in violence? That's the situation in Cuba.

Yes, I oppose them but I recognise their right to express their views peacefully. That's not the situation in Cuba.
You certainly wouldn't have to worry too much about Islamic fundamentalist terrorists in Cuba. Another holiday destination plus! :)

you never know - islamist hijackers could re-route the plane to beirut just for the sake of irony.
 
I have friends who love nature, and they would be very happy to live in Cuba.

If you want to be poor and content, Im sure Cubas a good place

If you want to fight for riches (and lets face it, more money is the aim, sometimes neccesary, of many americans) then you would be better in the US.
 
Actually I think Cuba might have developed differently if it hadn't been for the economic blockade . Cuba wasforced into the hands of the Stalinist-Bloc. Castro always had a strong authorattarian streak but that would not have been allowed full expression if it wasnt for USthreats.

It wasn;t just the bay of pigs, there have been constant attacksby CIA funded exiles over the years which resulted in the deathsof 3,500 Cuban citizens.

This might explain some of the reasons why Cuba went down a certain road but it does not excuse the fact that it is ilegal,to insult Castro, to set up an opposition newspaper, to set up a website.

I say lets defend Cuba against the Economic Blockade and invasion,lets recognise its great attainments in the fields of Health & Education. But do you really think you will win people over in the UK & Ireland & US etc if you start fudging about democracy?
 
Quake42 said:
I thought you were opposed Islamists who advocated overthrowing the government generally, even if they were not involved in violence? That's the situation in Cuba.

Yes, I oppose them but I recognise their right to express their views peacefully. That's not the situation in Cuba.

You recognise the right of those who want to overthrow the government and who do not oppose Jihad against the West...That's not what I understood you to say before.

Remember Cuba has had to deal with widespread violence right up to the level of a full-scale invasion with air support. Remember that a lot of the groups opposing them have used violence (or terrorism if youy prefer in the past). In the UK, we jail people who support the enemy in wartime, and many in Cuba feel they are still at war. Given that there is still armed opposition in the US - nutters maybe, but armed opposition nevertheless - I can see their point.

Visiting Little Havana in Miami, with it's monument to 'Brigade 2506' (the Bay of Pigs gang) is a bit of an eye opener.

You can oppose the government in Cuba, and many do. But criticising Castro is still illegal. I don't agree with it, but to me the country is still way ahead of the rest of the region.
 
wembley8 said:
Quake42 said:
I thought you were opposed Islamists who advocated overthrowing the government generally, even if they were not involved in violence? That's the situation in Cuba.

Yes, I oppose them but I recognise their right to express their views peacefully. That's not the situation in Cuba.

You recognise the right of those who want to overthrow the government and who do not oppose Jihad against the West...That's not what I understood you to say before.

Remember Cuba has had to deal with widespread violence right up to the level of a full-scale invasion with air support. Remember that a lot of the groups opposing them have used violence (or terrorism if youy prefer in the past). In the UK, we jail people who support the enemy in wartime, and many in Cuba feel they are still at war. Given that there is still armed opposition in the US - nutters maybe, but armed opposition nevertheless - I can see their point.

Visiting Little Havana in Miami, with it's monument to 'Brigade 2506' (the Bay of Pigs gang) is a bit of an eye opener.

You can oppose the government in Cuba, and many do. But criticising Castro is still illegal. I don't agree with it, but to me the country is still way ahead of the rest of the region.

but if you don't allow people democratic freedoms then they have no alternative but to protest illegally. violent or nuisance-causing illegal protests then demonstrate why "these people" can't be allowed to have democracy. it's all very orwellian, much more so than america's supposed state of war. also i'm juts trying to compare such a scenario whereby this might have happened in the UK. if the british government had suspended elections in northern ireland, let alone the whole of the uk, then the IRA's appeal would have gone through the roof in the province.
 
Cuba's Castro recovering says son
By Stephen Gibbs
BBC News, Havana

Cuban leader Fidel Castro's recovery from intestinal surgery is satisfactory, his eldest son has said.
The son, also named Fidel, said his father could eventually make a complete recovery from his illness.

The 80-year-old leader was taken ill last July and is believed to be suffering from diverticulitis, a weakening of the walls of the colon.

US officials have said that it is their understanding that he is suffering from a terminal disease.

'Hope of revolutionaries'

Speaking on the sidelines of Havana's book fair, the eldest of Fidel Castro's children, gave the latest upbeat assessment of his father's health.

The president, said Fidel Castro Diaz Balart, was recuperating in a sustained manner.

He added that he believed a complete recovery was both possible and the hope of Cubans and revolutionaries around the world.

The comments echo those made by President Castro's brother Raul, who is currently Cuba's acting president.

He said last week that the veteran leader, whose health is officially a state secret, was getting better every day and was often on the telephone to senior government ministers.

The last official video of the president was released two weeks ago.

He appeared frail, but considerably less so than he had seemed three months previously.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/w ... 367257.stm

Published: 2007/02/16 01:14:26 GMT

© BBC MMVII
 
You recognise the right of those who want to overthrow the government and who do not oppose Jihad against the West...That's not what I understood you to say before.

Well, if you can find a post where I have stated that Islamists who protest peacefully about their wish for Britain to become a theocracy under shariah law should be jailed, I would be very interested to see it.

What I have said is that (a) Islamists calling for the murder of Jews and gays, for example, should be subject to criminal prosecution in the same way as anyone else and (b) that I suspect that some of those arrested and then released under anti-terrorist laws were probably under the surveillance of the security services for a reason. I stand by both of those comments but I am unclear how you have taken them to mean that Islamists stating their views peacefully - however loopy those views might be - should be jailed.
 
Some examples of human rights abuses in Cuba below. They are taken direct from an Amnesty International report and not any US organisation which may have had an axe to grind.

C 'Disrespect' (article 144)(17) - anyone who in any way insults or offends an authority.
Journalist Bernardo Arévalo Padrón(18) is serving a six-year prison sentence for reportedly accusing President Fidel Castro and Vice-President Carlos Lage of lying in an interview given to a United States radio station.

C 'Public disorder' (articles 200-201) - anyone who carries out an act with the intention of causing panic or commotion.

Carlos Oquendo Rodríguez(19) is believed to have been sentenced to at least two years' imprisonment in January 2002 for 'public disorder' and 'disrespect' after having publicly expressed criticisms of Fidel Castro.

C 'Revealing state security secrets' (articles 95-96) - anyone who reveals state security secrets of any kind.

Francisco Chaviano González(20). A document handed to him by a stranger was reportedly used against him at his trial in 1994, at which he was sentenced to 15 years' imprisonment.

C 'Enemy propaganda' (article 103) - anyone who incites against the social order, international solidarity or the Socialist State by means of oral or written propaganda and anyone who makes, distributes or possesses propaganda of that kind; anyone who spreads false news or malicious predictions which are likely to cause alarm or discontent among the population, or public disorder.

Cecilio Monteagudo Sánchez(21) served four years in prison, reportedly for writing a leaflet calling on people not to vote in local elections which were due to take place in October 1997. The leaflet was never printed or distributed. According to the Cuban Constitution, citizens have the right to vote but are not obliged to do so.

C 'Insult to the symbols of the homeland' (article 203) - anyone who insults or shows contempt by means of any other action for the national flag, anthem or coat of arms.

Oscar Elías Biscet(22) was sentenced to three years for this offence in October 1999 after hanging the Cuban flag upside down from his balcony during a press conference at his house.

C 'Spreading false news against international peace' (article 115) - anyone who spreads false news with the intention of disrupting international peace or endangering the prestige or reputation of the Cuban State or its good relations with another State.

Independent trade unionist José Orlando González Bridón(23) spent eleven months in prison in 2001 for an article in which he accused the police of negligence in the case of a fellow activist who had been murdered.

C 'Dangerousness' (articles 72-74) - the dangerous state is the particular proclivity which a person has to commit crimes, as demonstrated by behaviour which clearly runs counter to socialist moral norms.

Independent journalist Jesús Joel Díaz Hernández(24) spent two years in prison, from January 1999 to January 2001, for this offence. This charge, which is particularly vaguely defined and risks being open to subjective application, has repeatedly used against those engaged in dissident activities.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engamr250022002

Hard to defend jailing someone for displaying a flag upside down or writing a pamphlet I should have thought, although I am sure some posters here will attempt to do so.
 
Agreed Cuba's human rights record is not good. But how about comparing it with other countries in the region? There is simply nothing like the tens of thousands of dead seen elsewhere.

And for what offence are hundreds of people detained in Guantanamo?
 
ted_bloody_maul said:
if you don't allow people democratic freedoms then they have no alternative but to protest illegally.

I'm not saying I agree with it, but I'm saying why I can see they have a problem when they beloeve a state of war prevails. You get the same argument in the US at the moment about free speech for those who 'support the enemy'.


ted_bloody_maul said:
if the british government had suspended elections in northern ireland, let alone the whole of the uk, then the IRA's appeal would have gone through the roof in the province.

As memory serves, Northern Ireland did lose its government and they're still trying to get a new one kick-started..
 
ted_bloody_maul said:
i'm not really sure that america has any interest in cuba other than the bitter residue of the last 50 years.

Unfortunately the million-strong block of Cuban-Americans are the key to winning elections in Florida (prop. J Bush) and their views count for a lot. Also a lot of the people involved in Cuban-American relations are exiles or second-generation and have rather strong views.

To give an idea of how deep it goes, an art museum in Florida was bombed because they put on an exhibilition by a Cuban who was not necessarily pro-Castro but refused to condemn him.

It may not be rational, but there is a strong US interest in Cuba (in their backyard too).
 
Quake42 said:
What I have said is that (a) Islamists calling for the murder of Jews and gays, for example, should be subject to criminal prosecution in the same way as anyone else and.

Presumably, even if they're doing it peacefully...

Quake42 said:
(b) that I suspect that some of those arrested and then released under anti-terrorist laws were probably under the surveillance of the security services for a reason. .

I suspect that the Cuban security services have their reasons too, but of course they may be just as bad as our lot.

Quake42 said:
I stand by both of those comments but I am unclear how you have taken them to mean that Islamists stating their views peacefully - however loopy those views might be - should be jailed.

So an Islamist who calmly and peacefully states that they are in favour of the violent overthrow of the government is OK?

Fair enough, I did not think that was your view.
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6367297.stm

Friday, 16 February 2007

Cuban bomb suspect faces US trial

Venezuela wants to try Mr Posada for a 1976 plane bombing
An anti-Castro Cuban militant is to face trial in the US in May, charged with lying to immigration officials.
Luis Posada Carriles has been held in an immigration detention centre in Texas since 2005 after crossing the border illegally from Mexico.

Both Venezuela and Cuba want to put Mr Posada on trial for allegedly masterminding the bombing of a Cuban jetliner in 1976 that killed 73 people.

A US judge has ruled that Mr Posada can not be deported to Cuba or Venezuela.

Mr Posada is accused of fraud and making false statements on an application for US citizenship he made after he arrived in the country in 2005.

According to court documents, Mr Posada said he was smuggled into the US by land, but an investigation found he actually arrived by boat.

Torture fears

Last month, the Cuban foreign ministry described the immigration charges as a legal pretext to avoid having Mr Posada tried on murder and terrorism charges.

The former CIA operative, now 78, came to the US after serving time in Panama for plotting to kill Cuban President Fidel Castro at a regional summit there in 2002.

He faced deportation from the US, but a judge ruled he could not be deported to Cuba or Venezuela over fears he might be tortured.

No other country was willing to accept him.

Venezuela wants to try Mr Posada - who was born in Cuba but has Venezuelan citizenship - in connection with the bombing of the plane, which was flying to Cuba from Caracas.

The Cuban plane exploded over Barbados in 1976, killing all 73 people on board - including Cuba's entire fencing team.

He has denied involvement in the plane bombing.

He escaped from a Venezuelan prison in 1985 while awaiting a trial on appeal.

Both Venezuela and Cuba have accused the US government of harbouring a man they regard as a terrorist.
 
What would happen if you flew the US rag upside down?

(we dont worry our heads over petty things like that here...not even in Wales...)
 
What would happen if you flew the US rag upside down?

Well, in the US flag burning etc is protected under the First Amendment. Much to the annoyance of many conservatives, it has to be said.

Interesting your choice of words there - I wonder if you would have referred to the Cuban, Iraqi or Palestinian "rag". Somehow I doubt it.
 
What I have said is that (a) Islamists calling for the murder of Jews and gays, for example, should be subject to criminal prosecution in the same way as anyone else and.


Presumably, even if they're doing it peacefully...

Wembley - now you're just being argumentative. Perhaps you can enlighten me as to how one can call for the murder of others in a peaceful manner? Solicitation to murder is a crime in the UK and in most other countries - quite reasonably I should have thought.

So an Islamist who calmly and peacefully states that they are in favour of the violent overthrow of the government is OK?

Yes, in the same way that someone on the far Left or Right who talks about their desire for violent revolution is, IMO, entitled to do so. Once said person starts making explosives, selling Islamist snuff videos or threatening Jews or gays with violence, then I think it is entirely reasonable for them to face criminal prosecution.

What's your view Wembley?
 
Interesting your choice of words there - I wonder if you would have referred to the Cuban, Iraqi or Palestinian "rag". Somehow I doubt it.

Im only saying that because I know they take it too seriously.

I have no idea how seriously Cubans or Palestinians do theirs.

I live in a country where you see the stars and stripes more than the union jack....

(and our english flag just means football...)
 
wembley8 said:
ted_bloody_maul said:
if the british government had suspended elections in northern ireland, let alone the whole of the uk, then the IRA's appeal would have gone through the roof in the province.

As memory serves, Northern Ireland did lose its government and they're still trying to get a new one kick-started..

that's a separate issue. what i said was if "elections had been suspended". from the 70's onwards the northern irish people have had and have practised the same voting rights as the rest of the UK. there's no comparison between a stormont assembly being suspended and the complete withdrawal of democratic rights in cuba.
 
Quake42 said:
hat I have said is that (a) Islamists calling for the murder of Jews and gays, for example, should be subject to criminal prosecution in the same way as anyone else and.

Presumably, even if they're doing it peacefully...


Wembley - now you're just being argumentative. Perhaps you can enlighten me as to how one can call for the murder of others in a peaceful manner?

"On balance, and with the greatest possible regret, I feel that if our current administration were taken out and shot - in the most humane manner possible - it might work out best for all concerned."

My point is the difference between those who practise violence and those who simply don't disagree with it.

(Argumentative - moi? :) )

So an Islamist who calmly and peacefully states that they are in favour of the violent overthrow of the government is OK?

Yes, in the same way that someone on the far Left or Right who talks about their desire for violent revolution is, IMO, entitled to do so. Once said person starts making explosives, selling Islamist snuff videos or threatening Jews or gays with violence, then I think it is entirely reasonable for them to face criminal prosecution.

What's your view Wembley?

I think it depends a great deal on the situation at the time. Everyone wants free speech, but where it causes problems - e.g. holocaust denial in Germany - governments feel they have to act. Generally speaking, trying to clamp down on free speech in the political arena isn't very productive, it's a great way of creating an underground and fuelling it with resentment.

If I wanted to run an oppressive state, I would encourage as much free speech as possible - and take down names.
 
Me too. you have to know whos saying what.

----------------------

As a complete aside, I managed to jab myself in the eye with a knife today. I stumbled up the surgery, and straightaway the receptionists re arranged things so I could see a doc. When he found I had no transport to get the the Eye clinic in the hospital, he rang a real ambulance (much to my mortification, who had got over the shock by then.) The specialist saw me, said it was just a scratch and to treat it with antibiotic eye drops, and booked me in for another appointment later in the week to see how it heals.

And I was thinking `Im glad Im in a country where we have a health service.`
 
Fiendishly clever!

Cubans land during US coast drill

The operation had been planned before Fidel Castro fell ill
Forty Cuban migrants sneaked ashore in Florida as a training exercise designed to deal with a possible mass exodus from Cuba was under way, officials say.
They were found on two beaches. A US border patrol spokesman said the case enhanced the realism of the exercise.

The two-day Operation Vigilant Sentry, which ended on Thursday, involved 325 agents and 85 law enforcement agencies.

Most Cubans who reach US shores are allowed to stay - those intercepted at sea are usually returned to Cuba.

Preparedness

Over two days, hundreds of law enforcement agents enacted a scenario which imagined thousands of Cubans fleeing violence in the event of the death of President Fidel Castro.


Officials said the training exercise had been planned before Mr Castro fell ill last July.

But the operation took on a renewed urgency when he temporarily handed over power to his brother, Raul.

President Castro recently spoke in a live broadcast with his Venezuelan counterpart Hugo Chavez, but has not been seen in public since last year.

Coast Guard Rear Adm David Kunkel said: "It's a mass migration plan in general. It doesn't have to be from Cuba.

"However we do recognise that Cuba is certainly an area where we must be prepared."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6434127.stm
 
You mean the americans have so much wealth these days they fear a mass invasion of the worlds poor?
 
Kondoru said:
You mean the americans have so much wealth these days they fear a mass invasion of the worlds poor?

I wouldn't have thought that was what was behind fairly standard procedures for the protection of borders.
 
US confirms it made 'Cuban Twitter'
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-26876801

White House press secretary Jay Carney: "It is neither covert nor an intelligence programme"

The White House confirms a US government aid agency was behind a text-message service that was allegedly designed to foment unrest in Cuba.

ZunZuneo, dubbed a "Cuban Twitter", had 40,000 subscribers at its height in a country with limited web access, reports the Associated Press.

The project is said to have lasted from 2009-12 when the grant money ran out.

The US reportedly hid its links to the network through shell firms and by routing messages via other countries.

There has been no official Cuban government reaction to the story.

'Bogus advertisements'
The BBC's Sarah Rainsford in the Cuban capital of Havana says there is a thirst for information on the island, which has no independent media.

Continue reading the main story
Analysis

image of Sarah Rainsford
Sarah Rainsford
BBC News, Havana
The ZunZuneo project seems to have focused on phone messages because internet activity is so limited in Cuba. Cubans were only permitted to own mobile phones in 2008, but now they are very common.

Since last year, 137 public internet access points have been opened - for the whole island. But one hour online costs $4.50 (£2.70) - or almost a quarter of an average monthly state salary. Getting online in a hotel is now possible for Cubans, but prices there are even higher. Last month, the government began allowing email via telephone.

In this void - telephone messaging has emerged as a common form of organisation for Cuba's small dissident community - who send photos and post to Twitter via their mobile phones. But most Cubans who do go online are generally more interested in using sites such as Facebook or email to contact family and friends now living abroad.

The scheme, first reported by the Associated Press news agency, was operated by the US Agency for International Development (USAID)

It is a federal international development organisation run under the aegis of the Department of State.

At a daily news briefing on Thursday, White House spokesman Jay Carney said the project had been debated by Congress and passed oversight controls.

He said: "These are the kinds of environments where a programme like this and its association with the US government can create problems for practitioners and members of the public.

"So appropriate discretion is engaged in for that reason but not because it's covert, not because it's an intelligence programme, because it is neither covert nor an intelligence programme."

USAID spokesman Matt Herrick told the BBC the agency was proud of its efforts in Cuba and that it worked to help people everywhere to exercise their rights and connect them with the outside world.

However, the report could undermine USAID's longstanding claim that it does not take covert action in the countries where it operates aid programmes.

ZunZuneo, slang for a Cuban hummingbird's tweet, was reportedly designed to attract a subscriber base with discussion initially about everyday topics such as sport and weather.

Students gather behind a business looking for a Internet signal for their smart phones in Havana, Cuba, 1 April 2014
Cubans were only permitted to own mobile phones in 2008, but the devices are now very common
US officials then planned to introduce political messages to spur the network's users into dissent from their communist-run government, the Associated Press reports.

Executives set up firms in Spain and the Cayman Islands to pay the company's bills and funneled the text messages away from US servers.

A website and bogus web advertisements were reportedly created to give the impression of a real firm.

Senator Patrick Leahy, chairman of the foreign operations appropriations subcommittee, said the revelations were troubling.

One former subscriber, Javiel, told the BBC in Havana that ZunZuneo sent him free sports news by text.

He said he had no idea the service was funded by the US and never received anything remotely political.

Javiel said that at some point over a year ago the messages stopped.
 
Back
Top